How are we saved?

[fhansen]

As a Protestant, we often say, “We are saved by believing the Gospel, or putting our trust in Jesus/giving Him our life.”

The Bible says the gospel is the good news that God sent his only Son, the Messiah, the annointed one, to save Jews and Gentiles by dying for our sins, and rising from the dead and that we too will rise from the dead.

How do Catholics say we are saved? If I were an atheist or another religion or knew nothing about Christ/ God, and asked how I can go to Heaven/( Which I guess I wouldn’t ask if I were an atheist, but play along…), what would you say?

For Catholics, faith is to believe and trust in God and the revelation-the truths- He’s given us as put forth by the Church. Grace, rather than faith, is what saves us, however. And as a response to that grace there are conditions besides faith, such as contrition for sin and love for God and neighbor, which are expected to be present in and express themselves through the believer. Ultimately God saves us by molding us, with our cooperation, into beings that are worthy because they are perfected in love- as He is. Salvation is a process which is worked out over time.

 

[moondweller]

It’s obviously different for different age levels. But let’s assume adult with normal mental capabilities - in normal U.S. circumstances:.
Faith in existence of one Triune God. (Three Persons in One God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

Faith in attributes (eg. omnipotent) and activities (eg. creation) ascribed to God

Faith that Second Person of the Trinity became man (Jesus) to redeem us and save us from our sins. That He was conceived in the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. That He was crucified, died, and rose again on the third day. That He ascended into heaven and will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Faith that Jesus established His Church on the rock of Peter. Faith in the teachings His Church puts forward as true.

Faith that Jesus established sacraments to communicate His supernatural life (sanctifying grace) to us.

Faith in the need to be obedient to God if we wish to retain this new life in us.

Faith in the existence of the eternal states of heaven and hell.

Faith that after death we will be judged by Our Lord and spend eternity in one of those two states.

Those are the “bare bones”.
Now, the Church does not teach that a normal adult absolutely cannot be saved unless and until they have professed faith in all those teachings. If someone who was studying the faith because of a desire to love Our Lord, do His will, etc. were to die, we teach there is a high likelihood they would go to heaven. (They would be considered as having received a “baptism of desire”. The Church also teaches a “baptism of blood”.)

I am presuming when you say “to be saved”, you are referring to that initial reception of grace in the sacrament of Baptism. If you mean “saved” in the sense of spending eternity in heaven, then it is necessary to live so that we die in that state of grace.
We believe that deliberately sinning in a serious matter and not repenting is a rejection of God (rejection of Him as God, the One who has authority over us, to tell what we must do, what is right and wrong…). When we reject/separate ourselves from Him, we separate ourselves from His supernatural life of grace.

The O.P. is about Catholic salvation. So based on your last paragraph the ultimate goal of the Catholic is to “die in a state of grace.” This, you say, is primarily done by your avoidance of “serious sin” (mortal) and participating in sacraments. If a Catholic sins seriously (mortally), and dies, he is not saved, having died apart from that coveted “state of grace.”

A part of your definition of Catholic faith is:"Faith that Second Person of the Trinity became man (Jesus) to redeem us and save us from our sins."Yet your “faith” in His coming to redeem you and save you from your sins does nothing if you sin “seriously” and fail to die in a “state of grace.” You don’t believe that He actually did redeem you and save you from your sins. So of what value is “faith,” really, in Catholic salvation?

You believe THAT the Second Person of the Trinity became man to redeem you and save you from your sins, but your “faith” does not believe that He actually DID redeem you, and through His work of redemption God Himself saved you from your sins. But instead your “faith” states:“that after death we will be judged by Our Lord and spend eternity in one of those two states” (heaven or hell).Further defined in your statement:"I am presuming when you say “to be saved”, you are referring to that initial reception of grace in the sacrament of Baptism. If you mean “saved” in the sense of spending eternity in heaven, then it is necessary to live so that we die in that state of grace."Believing all that you list is of no benefit to you if you do not achieve that final “state of grace.” So what does “faith” have anything to do with Catholic salvation?

 

[moondweller]

For Catholics, faith is to believe and trust in God and the revelation-the truths- He’s given us as put forth by the Church. Grace, rather than faith, is what saves us, however. And as a response to that grace there are conditions besides faith, such as contrition for sin and love for God and neighbor, which are expected to be present in and express themselves through the believer. Ultimately God saves us by molding us, with our cooperation, into beings that are worthy because they are perfected in love- as He is. Salvation is a process which is worked out over time.

Thank you. This is the best definition of Catholic salvation I’ve seen on this forum so far.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The O.P. is about Catholic salvation. So based on your last paragraph the ultimate goal of the Catholic is to “die in a state of grace.” This, you say, is primarily done by your avoidance of “serious sin” (mortal) and participating in sacraments. If a Catholic sins seriously (mortally), and dies, he is not saved, having died apart from that coveted “state of grace.”

A part of your definition of Catholic faith is:"Faith that Second Person of the Trinity became man (Jesus) to redeem us and save us from our sins."Yet your “faith” in His coming to redeem you and save you from your sins does nothing if you sin “seriously” and fail to die in a “state of grace.” You don’t believe that He actually did redeem you and save you from your sins. So of what value is “faith,” really, in Catholic salvation?

You believe THAT the Second Person of the Trinity became man to redeem you and save you from your sins, but your “faith” does not believe that He actually DID redeem you, and through His work of redemption God Himself saved you from your sins. But instead your “faith” states:“that after death we will be judged by Our Lord and spend eternity in one of those two states” (heaven or hell).Further defined in your statement:"I am presuming when you say “to be saved”, you are referring to that initial reception of grace in the sacrament of Baptism. If you mean “saved” in the sense of spending eternity in heaven, then it is necessary to live so that we die in that state of grace."Believing all that you list is of no benefit to you if you do not achieve that final “state of grace.” So what does “faith” have anything to do with Catholic salvation?

MD, you are coming to invalid conclusions here because you are shaping eveyone’s response to conform to your own private ideas about salvation. What you are failing to discriminate is that there is a HUGE difference between a superficial belief that “Jesus saves” and the faith in God to reveal Himself both through nature and natural intellect and through Divine Faith. Faith is a TWO WAY STREET - faith in God/Christ and God’s faith in us.

Dieing impenetent is a sure sign that a person had no real faith in Christ and in fact rejected his faith or never had a real faith. One can not remain in grave sin while one is faithful to God.

You simply fail to see faith as a two-way expression and work of love and completely miss that it takes two to cooperate in love. Just as one can not embrace and hug a person who willfully walks away from us, a one sided love, no matter how intense, can not hold the other person back from self loathing and lack of trust in the relationship. It is impossible to be charitable in love (loving both God with whole heart and soul and neighbor as oneself) is one hates oneself and has no faith in the Christ in our own souls.

James

 

[Nita]

Believing all that you list is of no benefit to you if you do not achieve that final “state of grace.” So what does “faith” have anything to do with Catholic salvation?

You lose grace thru unrepented serious sin; but you can’t lose something you never had in the first place! - it is faith that leads one to seek Baptism in order to receive grace in the first place. (Because of their personal faith, parents seek baptism for their children; because an his faith, an unbaptized person seeks baptism.)

Originally Posted by **moondweller **
Define “faith.” What is the content of Catholic “faith” that one must have along with participating in the sacraments for Catholics to be saved?

I was not “defining” the term “faith” (your first question), but rather was responding to your request for the **“content” **of our faith (your posts #10, #17, and #18). I took that to mean our basic doctrines, but evidently that is not what you meant by “content”.
Would you please give the “content” of your faith. Perhaps that will help us understand better what you are after.

Nita

 

[sodak]

As a Protestant, we often say, “We are saved by believing the Gospel, or putting our trust in Jesus/giving Him our life.”

The Bible says the gospel is the good news that God sent his only Son, the Messiah, the annointed one, to save Jews and Gentiles by dying for our sins, and rising from the dead and that we too will rise from the dead.

How do Catholics say we are saved? If I were an atheist or another religion or knew nothing about Christ/ God, and asked how I can go to Heaven/( Which I guess I wouldn’t ask if I were an atheist, but play along…), what would you say?

Let me redirect you if I may. Before you quote the Bible, can you tell me why you consider it an authoritative source? Why should I believe the Bible more than any other book?

One problem Catholics find with this statement is that it allows no salvation for babies, toddlers, or mentally incompetent adults.

We believe we are saved by grace, which Jesus won for us by his shed blood. The ordinary method through which one receives that grace is the sacraments, particularly the initial sacrament of baptism. If during the course of our lives we lose the state of grace due to mortal sin, we must return to the state of grace through repentance and, under ordinary circumstances, through sacramental confession.

Great answer! We are required to obey the Church. When that is impossible due to circumstances beyond our control, then there is a possibility that God intervenes in non-ordinary ways. We are bound to the Sacraments and obedience. God can work outside of our boundaries.

 

[foundthelight]

Thank you. This is the best definition of Catholic salvation I’ve seen on this forum so far.

If that is what you wanted, why didn’t you state it yourself?

 

[mesl4]

One problem Catholics find with this statement is that it allows no salvation for babies, toddlers, or mentally incompetent adults.
.

I’m not sure about all Protestants, but I think most believe that Jesus’ sacrifice covers the innocent (ie. babies/under age of reason/retarded, etc). Once we have knowledge of sin and choose sin, we then need to repent. A baby doesn’ t need to repent. I guess we understand original sin differently. Like, Jesus’s sacrifice removed original sin, but we then act on our life / faith/repentance once we have knowledge.

 

[Gamera]

I’m not sure about all Protestants, but I think most believe that Jesus’ sacrifice covers the innocent (ie. babies/under age of reason/retarded, etc). Once we have knowledge of sin and choose sin, we then need to repent. A baby doesn’ t need to repent. I guess we understand original sin differently. Like, Jesus’s sacrifice removed original sin, but we then act on our life / faith/repentance once we have knowledge.

Yes, that is a difference. Catholics believe that we all inherit original sin and that original sin, by itself, excludes a person from entry into heaven. The normal way by which a person is cleansed of original sin is through baptism, which is why we baptize infants (of course, even then faith is still involved, but it is the faith of the parents, not of the infant).

 

[mesl4]

This is an interesting question which seems to highlight, at least for me, a tremendous difference in understanding between Catholics and Protestants.

You see, moondweller, the partaking in the sacraments is an action taken in faith. A faith that says that if Christ said that we need to partake of these sacraments in addition to merely believing that He died for us then we must do so. We confess that Jesus is our Lord and Savior just as, I presume, you do. We also accept Him at his Word. A word that says we must partake of His Body and Blood. A Word that says we must be baptized. A Word that says we must do penance. A Word that says we must do good deeds, that faith alone without good deeds is dead. We don’t try to explain these teachings of Christ away. We just accept Him at His word.

A faith that denies these things is merely belief for it does not take action in faith. Even the demons believe, and they tremble in fear.

Faith and works is something I’ve always struggled w/from a Protestant perspective. The OT “fatihful” did not believe in Jesus or know of his death and resurection, yet Abraham was “faithful” and the “father of faith.” “becase he believed God.” So, I think faith is believing God will do what he says he will do." Often, if not always, our disobedience stems from really no believing God will do what he says: “Well, maybe he doesn’ t really mean that…” etc. Or, like a demon/anti-christ might say, " He can’t really do that, or I don’t care if he says that." The gentiles didn’t know they even had a chance w/the God of the Jews, so Jesus came to proclaim that is now for all mankind if we just believe in him. (ie. believe he will do what he says he will do: raise the followers, punish the disobedient/care-less ones.) We also have faith in his grace, but I’m not so sure that is even necessary for salvation. His grace might cover someone who doesn’t understand it (like me) but wants to follow, serve, and love him, and obey him. Fatih and works are interconnected, which even my Baptist church admits. They even have a hard time admiting faith w/out work can save, because a truly faithful will live that out in their works. If not works, / acts of the holy spirit,most likely, no faith, therefore, no salvation.
That’s my view.

 

[moondweller]

MD, you are coming to invalid conclusions here because you are shaping eveyone’s response to conform to your own private ideas about salvation. What you are failing to discriminate is that there is a HUGE difference between a superficial belief that “Jesus saves” and the faith in God to reveal Himself both through nature and natural intellect and through Divine Faith. Faith is a TWO WAY STREET - faith in God/Christ and God’s faith in us.

Now this is a whole new aspect/dimension of salvation faith which I have not seen expressed before. Nowhere in the Scriptures have I seen Apostolic teaching on salvation based on “God’s faith in us.”

Dieing impenetent is a sure sign that a person had no real faith in Christ and in fact rejected his faith or never had a real faith.

“Real faith” (in Christ) meaning what?

One can not remain in grave sin while one is faithful to God.

I understand this from a Catholic mindset which believes sin (not faith/belief in the testimony concerning Christ) is the core issue of salvation, demonstrating disbelief in the divine revelation that:"…now once at the consummation of the ages He (Christ) has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:26),and that:“He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:12; cf. Heb. 1:3; Col. 2:13-14).

You simply fail to see faith as a two-way expression and work of love and completely miss that it takes two to cooperate in love.

What I fail to see is how faith in Christ plays any part in your “takes two to cooperate in love” salvation. Both you and fhansen are expressing the idea that God saves (future tense) only after one proves himself worthy of salvation. Which is the opposite of"For by grace (unmerited favor) you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."ISTM that according to your understanding of Catholicism, it’s one’s willingness to cooperate that determines salvation. That Catholic “faith” then is defined as our willingness to cooperate, in love, both toward God and neighbor, and the failure to persevere in this cooperative love (until death) results in “God’s faith in us” to fail, and salvation is not achieved.

So sin and insincerity are what prevent salvation.

 

[Nita]

Faith and works is something I’ve always struggled w/from a Protestant perspective. The OT “fatihful” did not believe in Jesus or know of his death and resurection, yet Abraham was “faithful” and the “father of faith.” “becase he believed God.” So, I think faith is believing God will do what he says he will do." Often, if not always, our disobedience stems from really no believing God will do what he says: “Well, maybe he doesn’ t really mean that…” etc. Or, like a demon/anti-christ might say, " He can’t really do that, or I don’t care if he says that." The gentiles didn’t know they even had a chance w/the God of the Jews, so Jesus came to proclaim that is now for all mankind if we just believe in him. (ie. believe he will do what he says he will do: raise the followers, punish the disobedient/care-less ones.) … His grace might cover someone who doesn’t understand it (like me) but wants to follow, serve, and love him, and obey him. Fatih and works are interconnected, which even my Baptist church admits. They even have a hard time admiting faith w/out work can save, because a truly faithful will live that out in their works. If not works, / acts of the holy spirit,most likely, no faith, therefore, no salvation.
That’s my view.

The above conforms to Catholic belief also. (Please note, I removed one sentence. See below.)

We also have faith in his grace, but I’m not so sure that is even necessary for salvation.

This is the one statement where we would differ. The reason boils down to a difference in our understanding of what saving grace consists of. (We believe it is a participation in the supernatural life of God, merited for us by Jesus, and infused into our soul by the Holy Spirit when we receive Him at Baptism.)

Nita

 

[foundthelight]

What I fail to see is how faith in Christ plays any part in your “takes two to cooperate in love” salvation. Both you and fhansen are expressing the idea that God saves (future tense) only after one proves himself worthy of salvation. Which is the opposite of"For by grace (unmerited favor) you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."ISTM that according to your understanding of Catholicism, it’s one’s willingness to cooperate that determines salvation. That Catholic “faith” then is defined as our willingness to cooperate, in love, both toward God and neighbor, and the failure to persevere in this cooperative love (until death) results in “God’s faith in us” to fail, and salvation is not achieved.

So sin and insincerity are what prevent salvation.

If we die in a state of mortal sin we are indeed not worthy of Heaven. Note that the key is sin, not insincerity. We do have to cooperate with grace. Christ clearly laid that out to us.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Now this is a whole new aspect/dimension of salvation faith which I have not seen expressed before. Nowhere in the Scriptures have I seen Apostolic teaching on salvation based on “God’s faith in us.”“Real faith” (in Christ) meaning what?I understand this from a Catholic mindset which believes sin (not faith/belief in the testimony concerning Christ) is the core issue of salvation, demonstrating disbelief in the divine revelation that:"…now once at the consummation of the ages He (Christ) has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:26),and that:“He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:12; cf. Heb. 1:3; Col. 2:13-14).What I fail to see is how faith in Christ plays any part in your “takes two to cooperate in love” salvation. Both you and fhansen are expressing the idea that God saves (future tense) only after one proves himself worthy of salvation. Which is the opposite of"For by grace (unmerited favor) you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."ISTM that according to your understanding of Catholicism, it’s one’s willingness to cooperate that determines salvation. That Catholic “faith” then is defined as our willingness to cooperate, in love, both toward God and neighbor, and the failure to persevere in this cooperative love (until death) results in “God’s faith in us” to fail, and salvation is not achieved.

So sin and insincerity are what prevent salvation.

Well yes, faith is a two way street and the semantic of faith has been progressively revealed to us beginning from OT times.

Faith has semantic elements that envelope a few surprising dimensions simultaneously. For instance from OT times we get the revelation that within the general notion of our English word “faith” is the the concept of “steadfastness”. Ironically the original OT Hebrew does not have the semantic “belief” but rather trust; yet *belief *in our cultural way of thinking is implied and so trust-belief are paired.

If you want to see an example that faithfulness is bi-directional look to Deut 32:4 *The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: **God is faithful *and without any iniquity, he is just and right.

If you want a tangible and weighty example of Catholic faith - pick up any Catholic Catechism. In Catholic theology the notion of biblical faith must necessarily result in a body of dogmatic beliefs and not just a rote recitation of a Creed or some few Salvation-Slogan one-liners in a sort of Christianity-lite. Thus our answer to the common Protestant complaint that Catholicism is too loaded with dogmatic instruction is to reply 'but the catechism is a tangble expression of our belief and our faith - what can you point to to show us yours?". If then press a Protestant to tell us about their faith they then say “Jesus saves”. If we smile and say “OK” tell us more - they feel awkward and know there is much more too it and will then panic and then clutch their KJV as if it was a life preserver.

Objectively Catholic faith is the sum of truths revealed by God in Scripture and tradition and which the Church presents to us in a brief form in her creeds. Subjectively, faith stands for the habit or virtue by which we assent to those truths.

In other words - faith is more than a spoken word and a one time transient thought at an altar call. It’s a way of life and a system by which we nurture the gift of faith and let it grow - and a whole lot more than I can describe in a few posts.

James

 

[mesl4]

. Thus our answer to the common Protestant complaint that Catholicism is too loaded with dogmatic instruction is to reply 'but the catechism is a tangble expression of our belief and our faith - what can you point to to show us yours?". If then press a Protestant to tell us about their faith they then say “Jesus saves”. If we smile and say “OK” tell us more - they feel awkward and know there is much more too it and will then panic and then clutch their KJV as if it was a life preserver.

In other words - faith is more than a spoken word and a one time transient thought at an altar call. It’s a way of life and a system by which we nurture the gift of faith and let it grow - and a whole lot more than I can describe in a few posts.

James

THis is a little off topic, but just to clarify…
There seems to be a misconception among the Catholics on this forum that Protestants beliefs are shallow or just verbal and not to the heart. That’s funny, because that’s what we think about Catholics! Any devout Protestant I know would believe a faithful follower/lover of God would seek to live that out in every aspect of their life and knows that our words mean nothing. Our faith is in our heart, not in some words we say. Also, the NIV / NASM is the more frequently used Protestant bible, not the KJV. I dont know anyone who uses the KJV. Maybe that’s just a super Fundamentalist thing.

I think most Protestants just don’t understand works salvation in the Catholic sense of works. The RC works seem to be more ceremonial/ritualistic, the Protestant works, seem to be more spiritual/intangible/fruits of the HOly SPirit (love, kindness, patience, goodness, self-control, etc.). We know our faithful by these characteristics. Now, I know devout Catholics also believe those works are necessary, but they seem to be secondary to their ceremonial/sacrament works. Is that right? That’s what we don’t understand. It seemed like God was trying to show us that the ceremonial works were never going to purify us. The salvation comes from a clean heart to God. The grace is that he would actually consider us after being such wretches!

 

[CentralFLJames]

If we die in a state of mortal sin we are indeed not worthy of Heaven. Note that the key is sin, not insincerity. We do have to cooperate with grace. Christ clearly laid that out to us.

Actually, to get the whole message you must realize that anything that is not faithfulness is by definition sin. In the economy of salvation there is no real differentiation of sin except for by degree of what Catholics have called “mortal” and “venial”. By our own natural human standards of judgement there are differentiable degrees of mortal sins (e.g. rape is considered worse than consensual fornication). But this is irrelevant with respect to salvation since landing in hell due to mortal sin is to lose it all. The least severe punishment in hell is infinitely worse than the least who gains heaven. Thus, insincerity is sin - and a grave one. For Christ himself said “not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my kingdom”. What did he mean here? He meant an insincere lip service, a token Judas kiss, is an insincerity that merits hell.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

THis is a little off topic, but just to clarify…
There seems to be a misconception among the Catholics on this forum that Protestants beliefs are shallow or just verbal and not to the heart. That’s funny, because that’s what we think about Catholics! Any devout Protestant I know would believe a faithful follower/lover of God would seek to live that out in every aspect of their life and knows that our words mean nothing. Our faith is in our heart, not in some words we say. Also, the NIV / NASM is the more frequently used Protestant bible, not the KJV. I dont know anyone who uses the KJV. Maybe that’s just a super Fundamentalist thing.

I think most Protestants just don’t understand works salvation in the Catholic sense of works. The RC works seem to be more ceremonial/ritualistic, the Protestant works, seem to be more spiritual/intangible/fruits of the HOly SPirit (love, kindness, patience, goodness, self-control, etc.). We know our faithful by these characteristics. Now, I know devout Catholics also believe those works are necessary, but they seem to be secondary to their ceremonial/sacrament works. Is that right? That’s what we don’t understand. It seemed like God was trying to show us that the ceremonial works were never going to purify us. The salvation comes from a clean heart to God. The grace is that he would actually consider us after being such wretches!

It is ironic isn’t it? Part of the fundamental problem here is that Catholics do not believe that protestant services are true worship since many Protestant faith communities lack even a liturgy and none have what we consider valid priestly orders or valid sacraments (except for Protestant denoms that use a water baptism using the trinitarian formula and take marriage vows as part of sacramental marriage). This immediately leaves an impression of “where’s the beef”? Yet we do see that some denoms are “out there” with us feeding the poor, and helping the needy and walking the walk. Of course Catholics will also be the first to admit that not all Catholics, perhaps not even a majority are always actively living the faith they profess every Sunday either…

As for our works being ceremonial and ritual here is where we laugh. The rites are our way of reverencing God during worship and are not really considered works. Acts of Charity (helping the sick, the needy, prayer, using one’s talents for fellow man, and promoting the dignity of humans, alms giving etc.) are what we consider works. The things you mention kindness, patience etc. are just outward signs of virtues we all get as fruits of the Holy Spirit and are in fact signals of progressive confidence in one’s salvation and predestiny (which is only relevant to God).

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

…
I understand this from a Catholic mindset which believes sin (not faith/belief in the testimony concerning Christ) is the core issue of salvation, demonstrating disbelief in the divine revelation that:"…now once at the consummation of the ages He (Christ) has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:26),and that:“He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:12; cf. Heb. 1:3; Col. 2:13-14).What I fail to see is how faith in Christ plays any part in your “takes two to cooperate in love” salvation. Both you and fhansen are expressing the idea that God saves (future tense) only after one proves himself worthy of salvation. Which is the opposite of"For by grace (unmerited favor) you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

I am not comfortable with the way you summarized Catholic belief in terms of sin being the focus. Sin is certainly on our minds. But the objective focus is on Christ as our savior. We try to emulate Him as best we can while assuming through faith that He will give us every good grace necessary for our salvation. But let me also say, that a focus on sin (and its avoidance) is not too teribly wrong either since to have a formed conscience about sin implies having a fundamental faith and belief in God.

You only quoted a small bit of Heb 9:26. But that is too glossy and gives the false impression that there is universal salvation for ALL when we know that is not true. Salvation is only so many MAY BE saved - those who take advantage of the call and cooperate with God’s grace.

Here is the whole verse with some context around it:
*[Heb 9:24-26 ] For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. 25 Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; 26 if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. *

Catholics of course believe this to be true at face value. But what we don’t believe is your wrong interpretation that because Christ died everyone (or at least those that say the magic words “I believe”) is free to sin without penalty. Christ did not die to put an end to law. He did not die so we could all just continue having fun in sin without paying any mind to our consciences. Only a scrupulously minded person could interpret this verse as a free-ticket to sin.

James

 

[Philthy]

There seems to be a misconception among the Catholics on this forum that Protestants beliefs are shallow or just verbal and not to the heart. That’s funny, because that’s what we think about Catholics!

There is no shortage of unfaithful Catholics I’m afraid.

Any devout Protestant I know would believe a faithful follower/lover of God would seek to live that out in every aspect of their life and knows that our words mean nothing. Our faith is in our heart, not in some words we say.

Yeah…faith “in the heart” - that’s a little subjective doncha think? I mean true “faith in the heart” bears the fruits of the holy Spirit right? IMHO some Protestants seem a little too comfortable claiming to believe that “true faith results in good works” (or is revealed by them) while at the same time not quite being able to say that if you dont produce good works you cant really know that you’re saved. That’s not letting your “yes be yes and your no be no” IMHO.

I think most Protestants just don’t understand works salvation in the Catholic sense of works. The RC works seem to be more ceremonial/ritualistic, the Protestant works, seem to be more spiritual/intangible/fruits of the HOly SPirit (love, kindness, patience, goodness, self-control, etc.). We know our faithful by these characteristics. Now, I know devout Catholics also believe those works are necessary, but they seem to be secondary to their ceremonial/sacrament works. Is that right?

Intangible works??? This is, again, the stuff that just lacks any beef whatsoever. Feeding the hungry, healing the lame, sheltering the homeless, visiting the imprisoned, helping orphans and widows - there is nothing “intangible” about “faith working through love.”
I suppose when you refer to “ritualistic/ceremonial works” you are referring to the Sacraments? I dont think of the Sacraments as works - they are acts of faith - visible signs, instituted by Christ, which He has chosen to convey grace to the faithful.

 

[fhansen]

I’d like to say that I don’t understand why many Protestants think the way they do about salvation but I can’t because I used to think that way too. The differences are of a serious nature because one side says that we can’t be perfect enough to please God while the other side says we must be “perfect as He is perfect” in order to please Him-and enter heaven. They both claim that we’re saved by grace-grace which we cooperate with either by responding with faith or by responding with faith along with other dispositions and actions which would be expected of a being who’s in the process of genuine transformation-provided he’s given the time to accomplish this.

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. From Luke 12:48

Protestants claim that Jesus fulfilled the Law so that we didn’t have to. Catholics claim that Jesus fulfilled the Law so that we could too because, after all, that’s what we were designed to do to begin with.

**“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal 6:7-8

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?.. 1Cor 6:9**

Protestant theology believes that God’s grace gives us a “free pass”, so to speak, into heaven while Catholics believe that His grace helps us to become worthy of heaven.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matt 5:17

Protestants believe we can’t fulfill the Law. Catholics believe we can’t fulfill the Law without grace-won on the cross by our Savior Jesus Christ. In fact we believe that we’re held to an even higher standard than before. Jesus says we can’t even have anger or lust in our hearts, let alone act on these impulses.

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. Rom 7:14-15
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:24-25

The New covenant is where the Law is “put in our hearts and written on our minds”, where we’ll no longer struggle to consciously observe the written law but instead observe it by the Spirit.

The Law was a teacher that couldn’t produce holiness in us. It only served to show us what we were not –by being a standard we couldn’t live up to by our on efforts. But this doesn’t prove the Law to be wrong-it proves us to be wrong-it proves us to be lacking in love. St Paul wasn’t rejecting the Law when he addressed it in Galatians and elsewhere-he was battling legalismlove makes us worthy. When the time was ripe in human history, Jesus came to show us the truth-the truth that Adam and Eve had rejected. We need God in order to “have life and have it more abundantly”. Only God can elevate man to the lofty position he was designed for. But only man can admit to that and turn back to God to allow Him to accomplish the work that man can’t do on his own. We don’t become anything of value unless our own will is part of the process.

"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections."
– Saint Augustine

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10

Love and sin are mutually exclusive-when we love, we don’t sin or break the law. And God is satisfied with nothing less than for love to be perfected in us.