How are we saved?

[clmowry]

Certainly! But there can be no verse 10 without verses 8 & 9. Those in verse 10 who are “created in Christ Jesus” are those who have been gifted salvation BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, “not as a result of works.” Verse 10 does not contradict the former by stating that one is “created in Christ Jesus” BY good works. No, my friend, those saved by grace through faith in verses 8 & 9 are, by the grace of God, now "created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, not saved BY them.In Eph. 2 verses 8-10 he is saying that those who have been gifted salvation “by grace through faith” are now (and forever) “created in Christ Jesus for the good works” (cf. verses 5-7) prepared by God beforehand, that they (the saved, no longer “in Adam” but now “created in Christ Jesus”) should walk in them.

IOW, verses 8 & 9 are not contingent on verse 10. But verse 10 is contingent on 8 & 9.

I didn’t say vs. 8 & 9 contradicts verse 10, or that we are saved **BY **good works.

What I am saying is that verse 10 contradicts your interpretation of verse 8 & 9 (and the many other verses in direct conflict with your position).

Verse 10 says we were “created in Christ Jesus for the good works…that we should live in them.”

Then you turn around and concluded that to be saved we need only believe.

Your postion and verse 10 are diametrically opposed to one another.

I could accept “we are saved by grace through faith” and “those who are saved will persevere in doing good works.”

But to say that “we are saved by grace through faith” ALONE and nothing we do has any impact on that salvation.

Your position is that you will remain grafted into the vine of life whether you produce good fruit, bad fruit or no fruit at all and Christ clearly teaches otherwise.

Chuck

 

[sandusky]

.
The believer is forgiven all his sins when he believes.

.
:extrahappy: OH HAPPY DAY!!!:extrahappy:
.

 

[fhansen]

In God there is an “inherent link” between the two. It was His love (not ours) that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins (1 Jn. 4:10) that we might believe and be saved by His grace. Though the two are intimately linked in God, they’re not the same.

Thank you so much, Pope moondweller.

 

[notsmart]

.
The believer is forgiven all his sins when he believes.

.
:extrahappy: OH HAPPY DAY!!!:extrahappy:
.

Let’s say I believe just today. (actually, it was not too long ago I did) Are you saying if later on tonight, I am short tempered with someone, and hurt their feelings by lacking charity I don’t need to confess this to God in prayer? I don’t need to strive to be right with God each day?

 

[foundthelight]

I just realized that moondweller keeps writing of “Pauline Theology”. If we look at the writings of Paul in a vacuum I can see where he would think that there is nothing else to consider.

When we look at the writings of Paul in light in the sayings of Jesus we can see a totally different theological world where there are things in addition to faith that are necessary. In fact, it makes Paul’s statements on the Eucharist, running the race, and baptism suddenly leap in to focus when we use the lens of Christ’s teachings. These teachings are further amplified by James and Peter.

It is only when we look at Paul in a vacuum that we come up with the twisted concept of OSAS.

 

[clmowry]

First you need to look at Paul in a vacuum and then you need to ignore or twist until it is unrecognizable much of what Paul himself says.

Chuck

I just realized that moondweller keeps writing of “Pauline Theology”. If we look at the writings of Paul in a vacuum I can see where he would think that there is nothing else to consider.

When we look at the writings of Paul in light in the sayings of Jesus we can see a totally different theological world where there are things in addition to faith that are necessary. In fact, it makes Paul’s statements on the Eucharist, running the race, and baptism suddenly leap in to focus when we use the lens of Christ’s teachings. These teachings are further amplified by James and Peter.

It is only when we look at Paul in a vacuum that we come up with the twisted concept of OSAS.

 

[foundthelight]

First you need to look at Paul in a vacuum and then you need to ignore or twist until it is unrecognizable much of what Paul himself says.

Chuck

That too, but it is much easier to twist in that vacuum.

 

[sandusky]

notsmart:

Let’s say I believe just today. (actually, it was not too long ago I did) Are you saying if later on tonight, I am short tempered with someone, and hurt their feelings by lacking charity I don’t need to confess this to God in prayer? I don’t need to strive to be right with God each day?

That’s a stacked analogy; just take the teaching of scripture.

The clear teaching of scripture is that in Christ is found the forgiveness of sins, and that forgiveness is on the basis of Christ’s perfect sacrifice, and it’s gifted by grace and appropriated by the gift of faith.

Should you strive to be right with God? By the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, those in Christ are in a perfect and right standing with God, but that doesn’t preclude sanctification—the continual movement away from sin to holiness.

Should the believer confess his sin to God? I do; there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all of one’s sins, past, present and future are already forgiven.

 

[foundthelight]

That’s a stacked analogy; just take the teaching of scripture.

The clear teaching of scripture is that in Christ is found the forgiveness of sins, and that forgiveness is on the basis of Christ’s perfect sacrifice, and it’s gifted by grace and appropriated by the gift of faith.

Should you strive to be right with God? By the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, those in Christ are in a perfect and right standing with God, but that doesn’t preclude sanctification—the continual movement away from sin to holiness.

Should the believer confess his sin to God? I do; there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all of one’s sins, past, present and future are already forgiven.

Except that, future sin is not forgiven until you ask for forgiveness for it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

.
The believer is forgiven all his sins when he believes.

.
:extrahappy: OH HAPPY DAY!!!:extrahappy:
.

What scripture do you provide in support of this idea?

 

[Philthy]

Should the believer confess his sin to God? I do; there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all of one’s sins, past, present and future are already forgiven.

I see that you still feel the need to post despite God’s sovereignty in all things salvific. Interesting…there’s hope for you yet.

You confess your sins why? Because there’s nothing sinful about it?? Pretty deep, Sandusky. You really need to explore these dead ends in your theology…may I be of service???

Lets explore your claim that “there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all…are already forgiven.”

First point: sins, per se, are not forgiven - people are forgiven of committing sins. The distinction is important. While it is true that the guilt of all sins past, present and future for all people, has been atoned for by Christ this, of course, does not mean that the application of the forgiveness of individuals has yet - ie, actually - been applied to the people who commit them. If it were, then either everyone would be saved or, in the “limited atonement” model, all the elect would be saved prior to belief. This cannot be as we know that salvation is by grace THROUGH faith.
Those who have not yet become Christians but who will in the future have not - actually - had their sins forgiven, even though they have had them atoned for. You seem to confuse Christ’s atonement for all sins - an eternal, completed act - with the application of forgiveness - an ongoing act - to the individual sinner.

Second point: If, in fact, we accept your theology of all past, present and future sins having been forgiven for the believer, I believe a strong argument could be made that you are sinning in confessing them to God. In doing so you would be implying that Christ’s sacrifice for those sins is somehow lacking. You are “adding” to his work on the Cross. :tsktsk: God knows them, after all, has accounted them forgiven and recognizes them no more - why would you “confess” them? The only appropriate, logical, and faithful response within the parameters of your theology is gratitude for them having been forgiven through the blood of the Lamb. Yet you confess them - interesting…

Last point: Christ unambiguously tells us “If you do not forgive others…neither will your Heavenly Father forgive you…” First notice that he’s talking about forgiveness, not atonement.
Notice that in addition to forgiveness being conditional on an act of faith (forgiving others) that it is something that is ONGOING and OUT OF OUR CONTROL. We must forgive others yet we can never claim, “I have forgiven everyone I will ever be required to forgive” until our earthly lives are over. We dont control others’ decision to sin against us, but we do control - by grace - our response to those sins. Does responsibility powered by grace scare you? You are not alone - its called the Luther Syndrome.

 

[sandusky]

Except that, future sin is not forgiven until you ask for forgiveness for it.

Where is a believer told to ask for forgiveness of future sin?

 

[sandusky]

What scripture do you provide in support of this idea?

Which idea?

 

[sandusky]

I see that you still feel the need to post despite God’s sovereignty in all things salvific. Interesting…there’s hope for you yet.

You confess your sins why? Because there’s nothing sinful about it?? Pretty deep, Sandusky. You really need to explore these dead ends in your theology…may I be of service???

Lets explore your claim that “there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all…are already forgiven.”

First point: sins, per se, are not forgiven - people are forgiven of committing sins. The distinction is important. While it is true that the guilt of all sins past, present and future for all people, has been atoned for by Christ this, of course, does not mean that the application of the forgiveness of individuals has yet - ie, actually - been applied to the people who commit them. If it were, then either everyone would be saved or, in the “limited atonement” model, all the elect would be saved prior to belief. This cannot be as we know that salvation is by grace THROUGH faith.
Those who have not yet become Christians but who will in the future have not - actually - had their sins forgiven, even though they have had them atoned for. You seem to confuse Christ’s atonement for all sins - an eternal, completed act - with the application of forgiveness - an ongoing act - to the individual sinner.

Second point: If, in fact, we accept your theology of all past, present and future sins having been forgiven for the believer, I believe a strong argument could be made that you are sinning in confessing them to God. In doing so you would be denying that Christ’s sacrifice for those sins is somehow lacking. You are “adding” to his work on the Cross. :tsktsk: God knows them, after all, has accounted them forgiven and recognizes them no more - why would you “confess” them? The only appropriate, logical, and faithful response within the parameters of your theology is gratitude for them having been forgiven through the blood of the Lamb. Yet you confess them - interesting…

Last point: Christ unambiguously tells us “If you do not forgive others…neither will your Heavenly Father forgive you…” First notice that he’s talking about forgiveness, not atonement.
Notice that in addition to forgiveness being conditional on an act of faith (forgiving others) that it is something that is ONGOING and OUT OF OUR CONTROL. We must forgive others yet we can never claim, “I have forgiven everyone I will ever be required to forgive” until our earthly lives are over. We dont control others’ decision to sin against us, but we do control - by grace - our response to those sins. Does responsibility powered by grace scare you? You are not alone - its called the Luther Syndrome.

Thanks for your points, Phil.

 

[foundthelight]

Where is a believer told to ask for forgiveness of future sin?

When future becomes present or past we need to ask forgiveness.

 

[Philthy]

Thanks for your points, Phil.

You are welcome Sandusky. Thanks for making a point of thanking me.

 

[sandusky]

You are welcome Sandusky. Thanks for making a point of thanking me.

Thank you for thanking me.

Philthy:

I see that you still feel the need to post despite God’s sovereignty in all things salvific. Interesting…there’s hope for you yet.

You confess your sins why? Because there’s nothing sinful about it?? Pretty deep, Sandusky. You really need to explore these dead ends in your theology…may I be of service???

Lets explore your claim that “there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all…are already forgiven.”

You don’t understand predestination.

Philthy:

First point: sins, per se, are not forgiven - people are forgiven of committing sins. The distinction is important. While it is true that the guilt of all sins past, present and future for all people, has been atoned for by Christ this, of course, does not mean that the application of the forgiveness of individuals has yet - ie, actually - been applied to the people who commit them. If it were, then either everyone would be saved or, in the “limited atonement” model, all the elect would be saved prior to belief. This cannot be as we know that salvation is by grace THROUGH faith.

Those who have not yet become Christians but who will in the future have not - actually - had their sins forgiven, even though they have had them atoned for. You seem to confuse Christ’s atonement for all sins - an eternal, completed act - with the application of forgiveness - an ongoing act - to the individual sinner.

I’m not going to bother with this, Phil, how many times…???

Philthy:

Second point: If, in fact, we accept your theology of all past, present and future sins having been forgiven for the believer, I believe a strong argument could be made that you are sinning in confessing them to God. In doing so you would be denying that Christ’s sacrifice for those sins is somehow lacking. You are “adding” to his work on the Cross. God knows them, after all, has accounted them forgiven and recognizes them no more - why would you “confess” them? The only appropriate, logical, and faithful response within the parameters of your theology is gratitude for them having been forgiven through the blood of the Lamb. Yet you confess them - interesting…

The word for confess is an interesting one; it’s compound, and literally means to “say the same [thing]” as God; IOW, to agree with God that I need a savior, that I’m dependent upon Him, and that I’m thankful for the complete forgiveness of sins in Christ.

Philthy:

Last point: Christ unambiguously tells us “If you do not forgive others…neither will your Heavenly Father forgive you…” First notice that he’s talking about forgiveness, not atonement.

Notice that in addition to forgiveness being conditional on an act of faith (forgiving others) that it is something that is ONGOING and OUT OF OUR CONTROL. We must forgive others yet we can never claim, “I have forgiven everyone I will ever be required to forgive” until our earthly lives are over. We dont control others’ decision to sin against us, but we do control - by grace - our response to those sins. Does responsibility powered by grace scare you? You are not alone - its called the Luther Syndrome.

It’s a parable, Phil, the point of which is, simply stated, that those forgiven by God must themselves be forgiving.

What you’re scenario does is place that simple truth into a cumbersome works/righteousness framework. :ehh:

 

[sandusky]

When future becomes present or past we need to ask forgiveness.

Where is the believer told to ask for forgiveness?

 

[foundthelight]

Where is the believer told to ask for forgiveness?

In the Bible.

 

[sandusky]

In the Bible.

Where?