How are we saved?

[notsmart]

You have before you a woman who, unlike Simon, fully understood her sinful state. Do you understand yours?

I know I need forgiveness. I know I can turn my pride (hair) over to Him.
I can stop being so prideful about my own ideas.
I can turn them over to his capable hands he gave us.

 

[moondweller]

I know I need forgiveness.

And how will you get forgiveness?

I know I can turn my pride (hair) over to Him.
I can stop being so prideful about my own ideas.
I can turn them over to his capable hands he gave us.

OK.

 

[notsmart]

And how will you get forgiveness?OK.

From God of course. And, when God wills it, through the sacrament of confession, which is done as He always has done- and worked through men to do. I am not even a christian yet- but I still pray to God for forgiveness as you do.
I do see a reason for God chosing men to carry out some duties though. I see it in so many of the men in the bible that were given this by God.

 

[savedsinner]

But nowhere is it stated that salvation is based on our love, but rather His toward us:John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

Though God is love, we are not saved by God’s love, we are saved by God’s grace. This is why He had to send His Son to die for us to take away our sins, so that we might gain eternal life with Him.
His love couldn’t save us, He couldn’t sneak us in the back door of heaven. God had to Send His one and only Son to expiate our sins. It was His love for us that He did this act.

 

[foundthelight]

Originally Posted by moondweller forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
* But nowhere is it stated that salvation is based on our love, but rather His toward us:John 3:16 “For God so loved* the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

Perhaps mere belief isn’t enough. Perhaps there needs to be something more. Something that turns belief into faith, a faith that shows itself through works.

Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Jas 2:15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
Jas 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

 

[guanophore]

“Promise” doesn’t require performance on your part, it requires total faith in the performance of Another, Jesus Christ.

Indeed! Our part is to RECIEVE the very great and precious promises, which we do by faith.

“Jesus went through one town and village after another, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?” He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.” Luke 13:24

The word “strive” comes from the Gk. “agoonízesthe” where we get the word “agonize”. By faith, we enter into His agony on the cross. By faith we pick up our cross and follow Him.

And on His perfect performance God established unconditional promises regarding salvation (redemption, justification, reconciliation, sanctification, eternal life and glorification) to those who believe in Him.

It is my understanding that those from the Reformed traditions don’t think that Jesus’ teachings on salvation do not apply to Christians, so this will probably not make any sense.

Here you have the correct chronological order. Those who BELIEVED were baptized. Not the other way around (e.g., infant baptism).

Do we not agree that God can do things in whatever order He desires? People brought their infants to Christ, and He told the Apostles to “forbid them not”, so we do .

Here’s where we part. Men began to think and teach inaccurately about ritual, water baptism

When do you suppose this happened?

and eventually predicated to it a delusive power and, consequently, it (water baptism) took on a life of its own, even to the exclusion of personal faith.

I marvel that anyone can read the NT, and say that thepower connected to baptism is “delusive”. It seems so clear to me that, when Jesus entered the waters of baptism, He joined the HS to them.

However, I do agree that baptism has been abused, just as every sacrament has since Jesus founded them. People have been forced into baptism, which is wrong, and have entered it without faith, which is also wrong.

In the ancient church personal faith and water baptism were intimately united. Those that personally believed the gospel message of Christ were subsequently water baptized.

I am glad that we can agree on this point. Can you show me where the departure began, or is evident?

But it wasn’t the baptism itself that united them to Christ (His death to sin, burial and subsequent, bodily resurrection to glory), but the creative act of God (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10) based on one’s personal faith in Christ; ritual baptism being only the outward testimony of the spiritual (positional) reality.

Yes, of course. For those of Apostolic faiths, these are not separated.

Baptism in and of itself carries no power.

I would say it differently. Since we believe all those things you wrote above about being created anew by the Spirit happen in baptism, I would say that a ritual water bath does not carry power. Baptism is water joined with the work of the HS, as Jesus intended.

But tragically, men in high positions in the visible church began to adopt and promote the idea that it did, to the end that water baptism supplanted personal faith, and through water baptism “Christians” were being stamped out like molded parts on an assembly line.

Some historical evidence would be very helpful here. Who are these men? What were there positions? It seems that such an assertion would be easy to substantiate.

The notion that Peter was head of the church on earth and his “successors” were/are the Roman bishops was not taught by any Apostle, not even Peter himself.

Christ is head of the Church. He left Peter to care for His flock, and feed them. He authorized Him for the work, and gave Him the keys.

We can all receive the Apostolic teaching,which was committed to faithful men, who were able to teach others also.
The HS has guarded the Teaching of Jesus, so that the gates of hell would not prevail againt the Church that Christ founded upon Peter.

You’re rationalizing. I discount it across the board because it can’t be traced back to the Apostles, which is a fundamental requirement for oral tradition.

The problem remains, moon. You are bringing accusations against Roman Catholicism which have no merit unless you can show that all the Apostolic Churches, each of whom received the same instruction from the Apostles, can meet the criteria you have brought. This cannot be done, which makes your accusations without merit. All Churches that have retained the Apostolic succession have infant baptism inthe same form and matter used in the first century. Your refusal to investigate the apostolic succession does not nullify it.

 

[guanophore]

I dodged nothing. The issue was not simply sinning, but sinning and not caring. This is an issue of the heart, and that of the heart of an unbeliever.

I agree.

In the Hebrew passage the particular “heart issue” specified for those Jews was regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant. “Unclean” there means Christ’s blood was “common” blood. The blood of a mere, fallen, sinful man which could accomplish nothing.

I know that the OSAS have a very hard time with Hebrews, because it contains so much of the Apostolic perspective that cannot be reconciled with a pure Pauline approached used by the OSAS. However, this is a new twist I have not heard before. The idea that the writer could possibly be referring to Christ’s blood as common or profane is astonishing. I learn something new everyday on this Board.!

So their desire was to revert back to the sacrificial system of the Law.

Yes, I agree with this statement. Hebrews is addressing the same problem that Paul was addressing in Gal. and Rom.

At the time of the writing of Hebrews the Temple in Jerusalem had not yet been destroyed by the Romans and the sacrifices, according to the Law, were still being performed. This is not a believing heart being warned here, but unbelieving.

If one is willing to be intellectually honest, one can easily see that the letter of Hebrews is writtten to those whom had received the Gospel.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, holy partners in a heavenly calling…” Heb 3:1

 

[AliciaCL]

Haven’t read the whole thread here, so I apologize if someone has already referenced this. Take a look at the Joint Declaration of Justifiction by Catholics and Lutherans at

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

This is a detailed theological document which essentially states that there is a common agreement, on how human beings are saved. I believe it generally addresses the most prevalent non-Catholic concept of sola fide (saved by faith alone).

 

[guanophore]

Haven’t read the whole thread here, so I apologize if someone has already referenced this. Take a look at the Joint Declaration of Justifiction by Catholics and Lutherans at

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

This is a detailed theological document which essentially states that there is a common agreement, on how human beings are saved. I believe it generally addresses the most prevalent non-Catholic concept of sola fide (saved by faith alone).

Thanks for this great contribution to the thread!

 

[jim1130]

Baptism in and of itself carries no power.

I would disagree with this statement.

John 3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Here, Jesus declared the necessity of Baptism.

John 3: 22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized.

To reinforce what he had said earlier, Jesus, with his Apostles, baptized. In neither instance, do I see a reference that Jesus stated a profession of faith must be provided prior to baptism.

 

[moondweller]

From God of course. And, when God wills it, through the sacrament of confession, which is done as He always has done- and worked through men to do.

Do you believe what Peter says in the following verse?Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

I am not even a christian yet- but I still pray to God for forgiveness as you do.

I am a Christian and I do not pray to God for forgiveness. Being a Christian I have received forgiveness of my sins having believed in Jesus Christ, as Peter states in the above verse.Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”…says the Apostle Paul.

The Apostolic message is that your sins have been forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ who bore them in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24).John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (i.e., on the cross); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."As a Christian I don’t pray for forgiveness, I thank God for Jesus Christ, and that through Him I have forgiveness of sins; that I have eternal life; and I will not come into judgment but I have passed out of death (in Adam) into life (in Christ), according to the Word of God.

 

[moondweller]

I know that the OSAS have a very hard time with Hebrews, because it contains so much of the Apostolic perspective that cannot be reconciled with a pure Pauline approached used by the OSAS. However, this is a new twist I have not heard before. The idea that the writer could possibly be referring to Christ’s blood as common or profane is astonishing. I learn something new everyday on this Board.!

It’s astonishing that you got such an idea out of my post. I never stated that the writer of Hebrews referred to the blood of Christ as common. :nope: Take time to comprehend what is written, guanophore, in Scripture and my posts.

 

[Thing]

"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

…whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

 

[guanophore]

I would disagree with this statement.

John 3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Here, Jesus declared the necessity of Baptism.

John 3: 22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized.

To reinforce what he had said earlier, Jesus, with his Apostles, baptized. In neither instance, do I see a reference that Jesus stated a profession of faith must be provided prior to baptism.

I agree that baptism is salvific, and that Jesus commands it, but the Church has always required a profession of faith before baptism:

Mark 16:15-17
16 **The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; **but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Do you believe what Peter says in the following verse?Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Of course! And the verses following:

Acts 10:46-48
Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The profession of faith has never been separated from baptism, nor has the coming of the Spirit into the baptised.

I am a Christian and I do not pray to God for forgiveness. Being a Christian I have received forgiveness of my sins having believed in Jesus Christ, as Peter states in the above verse.Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”…says the Apostle Paul.

The Apostolic message is that your sins have been forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ who bore them in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24).John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (i.e., on the cross); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

We believe that we are cleansed from all sins in baptism, which washes us clean before God.

1 Peter 3:21-22
21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you — not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."As a Christian I don’t pray for forgiveness, I thank God for Jesus Christ, and that through Him I have forgiveness of sins; that I have eternal life; and I will not come into judgment but I have passed out of death (in Adam) into life (in Christ), according to the Word of God.

This is commendable. Those of Apostolic faiths believe that, when we approach God in a humble and penitent attitude, we go away justified:

Luke 18:13-14
13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted."

Perhaps you are conflating post baptismal sins with pre-baptismal?

 

[moondweller]

Though God is love, we are not saved by God’s love, we are saved by God’s grace. This is why He had to send His Son to die for us to take away our sins, so that we might gain eternal life with Him.
His love couldn’t save us, He couldn’t sneak us in the back door of heaven. God had to Send His one and only Son to expiate our sins. It was His love for us that He did this act.

That’s why Paul writes:“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that no of yourselves (but the One whom He sent); the gift of God (through the One whom He sent); not as a result of works (but the sacrificial work of the One whom He sent), that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).God had to first deal with out sins judicially, once for all, through the cross of Christ, so that He could save us graciously, once for all, upon faith in Him.

 

[foundthelight]

Act 16:13 And upon the Sabbath day, we went forth without the gate by a river side, where it seemed that there was prayer: and sitting down, we spoke to the women that were assembled.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, did hear: whose heart the Lord opened to attend to those things which were said by Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there. And she constrained us.

Act 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened and the bands of all were loosed.
Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison, awakening out of his sleep and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here.
Act 16:29 Then calling for a light, he went in: and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas.
Act 16:30 And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?
Act 16:31 But they said: believe in the Lord Jesus: and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes: and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately.

These two passages do not say that all in the household or house believed. They merely say that all were baptized. Given this fact and the evidence in the early writings of the church I have to say that personal faith is not a requirement for baptism.

 

[CentralFLJames]

“Promise” doesn’t require performance on your part, it requires total faith in the performance of Another, Jesus Christ. And on His perfect performance God established unconditional promises regarding salvation (redemption, justification, reconciliation, sanctification, eternal life and glorification) to those who believe in Him.

Jumping in here to point out some painfully obvious contradictions.
You just contradicted yourself - promise does not require performance but just faith? And what do you imagine good faith is? That is a contract or covenant (entered into at baptism) - there is performance on both sides of the deal and an assumption of mutual goodwill and terms involved. :tsktsk:

"Here you have the correct chronological order. Those who BELIEVED were baptized. Not the other way around (e.g., infant baptism).Here’s where we part. Men began to think and teach inaccurately about ritual, water baptism and eventually predicated to it a delusive power and, consequently, it (water baptism) took on a life of its own, even to the exclusion of personal faith.

You are recasting history according to your own religious speculation - the early church has always baptised both through individual belief and in the case of infants through the faith of their parents.

"
Baptism in and of itself carries no power. But tragically, men in high positions in the visible church began to adopt and promote the idea that it did, to the end that water baptism supplanted personal faith, and through water baptism “Christians” were being stamped out like molded parts on an assembly line.

Why do you even think in terms of “power” to baptism? This sounds like something Simon the Magician would say. Our salvation is not a system of magic. Why not apply this same fallacious thinking to the bible? Do you think it is like a magic book that has an organic “power” to save or to infuse some special knowledge that renders one saved? You are sounding more more gnostic these days MD.

Baptism is the prescribed sacrament or sign of the new covenant. We simply do what Christ and the apostles have taught. Those that don’t want to cross over on the journey to the promised land do not have to cross through the parting sea - but one thing is for sure they are not going to get there if they don’t.

"
The notion that Peter was head of the church on earth and his “successors” were/are the Roman bishops was not taught by any Apostle, not even Peter himself.

This reminds me of that old political exchange between Dan Quail and Senator Lloyd Bentsen during the political debates in 1988. Forget for the moment what side of the isle you are on politically and focus on the truth of the SNAFU Quail got himself into.

Young Quail trying to project himself with more experience tried to compare himself to the stature of John Kennedy based on what he read in his school history books. The much more experienced and senior Bentsen rebuked him sharply saying: "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy: **I knew **Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you’re no Jack Kennedy.

Sorry MD - you have no pedigree here. The apostles were friends and family of the Catholic Church. We knew the Apostles - they were friends of ours and family. We Catholics know what the apostles taught. You are not part of the Catholic Church and do not have a clue what the apostles taught. All you know is what you read in the Catholic bible that you took from us and now try to teach the teacher what it all means. Absurd.

How Ironic that you take a Catholic book (the bible) written and assembled for and by Catholics as your only basis of church history (when it was not intended to be a history book) that itself comes to us directly from the authority of a Catholic Pope (Pope Damasus - through apostolic succession); and then have the audacity wield that as if a dull club to attack the Catholic Church for having no history of papal succession!! How utterly absurd. :tsktsk:

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I think a misinterpretation (rather misunderstanding) of the Bible is that it teaches salvation conditioned at all on our love. CentralFLJames has gone so far as to say salvation is also conditioned on “God’s faith in us.”

MD - I am speaking some advanced concepts here and trying to get past your simplistic and naive view of salvation theology. This is not all I have said nor is it an exclusive condition as you misproject my statements. I am simply introducing the concept of love being a two way street - a partnership of consent that is as true now as it was true when Mary in her famous fiat said “let it me done to me according to your word”.

You just don’t get the most basics do you? We receive God’s Word into our Hearts as a seed falling into soil (humus - humanity). If our hearts are not stone and are not choked off by the weeds of despair or false teachings and distractions then God’s Word takes root. As we cooperate with God’s nourishing grace (the imagery of rain and seasons and sunlight is apropos here) we grow toward theosis (divine-human) to attain a level of divinity. At Christian fullness of maturity God recognizes His only Son, Jesus, in each of us and can love us as He loves His Son. In this saintly state we can then reciprocate that love fully and authentically in a way that overcomes an unequal yoke of love or an unauthentic and faux love that our debased and fallen human nature would otherwise limit us to.

Can’t you see it?? God wants us to be like Jesus! He wants us to be just like HIMSELF so he can love us on his terms with a real and authentic love that we can fully participate in. If we remained of simple human estate we could only love God in a dutiful way and in a very limited way. God wants more than that! He wants us to love Him at a level that is closer to His nature in a way that we will not feel inferior and inadequate and unworthy. The only way to do that is to elevate humanity by creating a new race of divine-human beings that take Jesus and Mary as the new prototype for his children. God in some mysterious sense learned to be human through The Incarnation - and now He wants to love us as a divine-human beings just as He loves Jesus. God can not accept an unauthentic love of duty or a love limited by the lower estate of our humanity. He raises us up so we may love Him in a way that is authentic.

Dude - we are to be in many ways just like Jesus - just like God!!!
The entire Creation is on pins and needles waiting for people to catch on. This is huge…

This is what you must grasp and believe.

James

 

[clmowry]

That’s why Paul writes:“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that no of yourselves (but the One whom He sent); the gift of God (through the One whom He sent); not as a result of works (but the sacrificial work of the One whom He sent), that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).God had to first deal with out sins judicially, once for all, through the cross of Christ, so that He could save us graciously, once for all, upon faith in Him.

The version of the bible I am looking at seems to be missing all that stuff in parentheses.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Interesting that you would stop your quote at verse 9 and then conclude what you do.

Does your “OSAS Pauline” version of the Bible not have the 10th verse?

10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

It sure looks to me like Paul would say that living in good works is a “requirement” for a believer.

Chuck

 

[fhansen]

That’s why Paul writes:“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that no of yourselves (but the One whom He sent); the gift of God (through the One whom He sent); not as a result of works (but the sacrificial work of the One whom He sent), that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).God had to first deal with out sins judicially, once for all, through the cross of Christ, so that He could save us graciously, once for all, upon faith in Him.

The nature of grace is not well understood. In Catholic theology there exists an inherent link between love and grace, such that the two go hand in hand and may even be the same.