How are we saved?

[Michael_Francis]

Let’s all mind our charity or expect citations from me and threads closed. Most of you know better! http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/character0008.gif

 

[Philthy]

That’s not an imperative, nor does it instruct the believer to ask for forgiveness.

Ahh - I get it. You had asked the question as follows:

Sandman:

The question is, where is the believer instructed to ask for forgiveness of sins?

I assumed that your bolding indicated that you didnt think it included the believer, but this time around it seems your emphasis on ask for forgiveness. Sorry Im having difficulty keeping up…
At least this clears one thing up: now we know why you have relegated the Lords Prayer to a “parable” since Christ clearly teaches us in it that when we pray to the Father…“forgive us our trespasses”. If its anything more than a parable then you might have to revise your theology and that’s kinda painful. But it does interest me how you so easily dismiss the words of Christ to people who were present on both sides of the cross. Is there any indication anywhere that he instructed them to stop saying this prayer? Why does it persist in Christianity in all the ancient Churches? It doesnt make sense because the prayer precedes Scripture - it was being prayed from the beginning, no? If so, it was taught to the earliest Christians by the Apostles themselves.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Dude, you’re not describing Biblical salvation here: redemption, justification, reconciliation; but some sort of “Christian” (and I use that word quite loosely here) new age restoration. How sad! How sad, indeed.

You present the unbiblical idea of an “initial” forgiveness similar to CentralFLJames’ unbiblical “initial” salvation connected to his new age restoration “gospel.”

Moondweller - how dare you characterize apostolic teaching as “new age” restoration. How dare you. You come into these forums and spew compete heresy - never before heard in The Church until the 1550’s era heretics of the Restoration open the flood gates to any and all private interpretation and start preaching the demonic doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved. Now you have the unmitigated gall to call 2,000 year old teaching “new age”!

You really are in desperate need of serious help MD. :tsktsk:

James

 

[sandusky]

Ahh - I get it. You had asked the question as follows:

I assumed that your bolding indicated that you didnt think it included the believer, but this time around it seems your emphasis on ask for forgiveness. Sorry Im having difficulty keeping up…
At least this clears one thing up: now we know why you have relegated the Lords Prayer to a “parable” since Christ clearly teaches us in it that when we pray to the Father…“forgive us our trespasses”. If its anything more than a parable then you might have to revise your theology and that’s kinda painful. But it does interest me how you so easily dismiss the words of Christ to people who were present on both sides of the cross. Is there any indication anywhere that he instructed them to stop saying this prayer? Why does it persist in Christianity in all the ancient Churches? It doesnt make sense because the prayer precedes Scripture - it was being prayed from the beginning, no? If so, it was taught to the earliest Christians by the Apostles themselves.

As I said earlier, Phil, your wording made me think of the Mt 18 parable.

The imperative is when you pray, “say…” No instruction to confess specific sins is given, but a general entreaty for forgiveness.

 

[CentralFLJames]

NO. Paul, literally, does not exempt himself from the above description. That is, in his natural state “in Adam.” In their natural state in Adam, he, Peter, John, Mary, Joseph, or any of the Apostles (all Jews) are no better than any run-of-the-mill Gentile. God has charged (declared) that both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) are ALL UNDER SIN (Rom. 3:9).

This was vividly demonstrated through the Law, because “through the Law comes the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). Through the covenant of Law (especially the Decalogue) sins were now manifested as definite transgressions against divine Commandments. Through Israel and the Law all men could see that such things as lying, stealing, murder and coveting were utterly sinful in the sight of God. Thereby ALL men (Jews and Gentiles) were guilty of them (Paul’s argument in chapter 1 & 2).

What Paul describes in Rom. 3:10-18 is not a hyperbole, but a literal, divine description of Adam’s fallen race.

But unlike you, Paul doesn’t stop with verses 10-18, but goes on to present the good news (gospel) message of God’s deliverance from our condemned state through Jesus Christ:Rom 3:19-24 “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of law (i.e., do, and I will do) no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge (epignosis) of sin (via Commandments, i.e., the Decalogue). But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace (how?) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (the cross);No, unlike the school of Origen, we don’t allegorize the Scriptures to form a “gospel” to our own liking, to our own exaltation. But we accept what God has literally revealed, and seeing our sin and guilt before God, we heed the literal words of Paul and the other Apostles and “repent” (turn direction), being no longer unbelieving but believing in what God has revealed in His written Word concerning salvation through the cross of Christ, and with GREAT JOY praise Him for His gift of justification (righteousness)“through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24).

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth MD. You can’t have your literalistic cake and eat it to without spitting pieces out as you talk and chew. Nice try. You just admitted that Paul condemns himself as a deceitful liar in the literal sense and you do not give any rationale for why we should believe anything that he or any apostle says to us. By what insanity do you come to believe the bible to be truthful if as you admit it is a book written by evil and deceptive men when who themselves tell us that ALL men are liars and sinful?

Who told you the bible is inspired and why did you believe them if they tell you “everything I say is a lie”? Are they being contradictory or truthful in telling us they are liars?

And finally, why should anyone here believe a word of what MD tells us when you acknowledge ALL men are deceitful sinners? Are you exempting yourself from error by assuming you are in fact a liar and trying to compensate for your own deficiencies by speaking the opposite of what the apostles say (on the assumption of an initial lie)?

Cut us a break MD - your speaking and your reasoning are pure sophistry and a hula-hoop of self-orbiting circuitous thinking.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....JPG/300px-Balancing_a_guitar_&_hula_hoop.JPG

James

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller - how dare you characterize apostolic teaching as “new age” restoration. How dare you. You come into these forums and spew compete heresy - never before heard in The Church until the 1550’s era heretics of the Restoration open the flood gates to any and all private interpretation and start preaching the demonic doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved. Now you have the unmitigated gall to call 2,000 year old teaching “new age”!

You really are in desperate need of serious help MD. :tsktsk:

James

You mean how dare I characterize YOUR teaching as some sort of new age restoration. I see nothing “Apostolic” in it, James. Certainly not Biblical. Your idea of “theosis”…

"As we cooperate with God’s nourishing grace (the imagery of rain and seasons and sunlight is apropos here) we grow toward theosis (divine-human) to attain a level of divinity.

…doesn’t resemble at all anything I read in the Scriptures as Apostolic teaching.

The Son (second Person of the Trinity) entered into this world via the virgin birth - i.e., as a MAN. As a MAN, through His sacrificial death (God cannot die), and the shedding of His precious blood, He became man’s “kinsman Redeemer.” In Rom. 5:12-21 Paul describes two MEN, two separate acts by each, with two separate results: condemnation and death through the one; righteousness and life through the Other. Sin reigning in death through the one; grace, reigning through righteousness to eternal life through the other.

In 1 Cor. 15:45-47 Paul describes Jesus as the “second man,” the “Last Adam.” He is the federal head of a new HUMANITY, not a new divinity. The believer’s relationship to the second Person of the Trinity is through His humanity only. The eternal chasm between Divinity and humanity, God and man, the Creator and the creature is not bridged by the incarnate Son. That was not His purpose for birthing into this cosmos. But rather that a body be prepared for Him (Heb. 10:5) “to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb. 9:26), and that as a MAN (resurrected and glorified) to become the Federal Head of a new HUMANITY (the “Last Adam”) through belief in Him.

But this isn’t done by a gradual process called “theosis,” but a creative act of God at the time of belief in Christ:2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."Paul says:1 Cor 1:30 "But by His doing (not yours) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."Notice it is God who places the believer “in Christ Jesus.” It’s not a process called “theosis.” And “righteousness,” “sanctification,” and “redemption,” are words that relate to SALVATION, not deification.

Man will never be anything more than human. Redeemed (in Christ), justified (in Christ), sanctified (in Christ) and glorified (in Christ), yes but, nevertheless, forever, huMAN.

God wants more than that!

…says CentralFLJames

He wants us to love Him at a level that is closer to His nature in a way that we will not feel inferior and inadequate and unworthy. The only way to do that is to elevate humanity by creating a new race of divine-human beings that take Jesus and Mary as the new prototype for his children.

I don’t agree with you, James, that the idea of humanity becoming like divinity goes back to the Apostles. In fact,I don’t believe this teaching is Apostolic at all (in any sense of the word), but this insane notion goes far back beyond the time of the Apostles and to the Garden of Eden itself when Satan tempted Eve with the idea that if she ate of the forbidden fruit she would be “like God” (Gen. 3:5). It was a lie then, it remains a lie today.

But the insane notion that the creature can be like the Creator (divinity in any sense of the word) goes back even further than this world’s creation and into the angelic realm itself. In Isaiah chapter 14 God’s prophetic Word gives us a glimpse of the heart of Satan which caused His demise: “I will make myself like the Most High” (Is. 14:b). The same insane notion by which he subsequently tempted Eve - and she bought it.

Since the fall of man every mystery religion that evolved has threaded into its doctrines the basic theme of striving for men to realize their divinity. Seen graphically in the “new age” doctrines of today, captured in the mind sciences. Although there’s nothing new about it, as I have pointed out to you. It was a lie in Satan’s mind, it was lie in the Garden, it remains a lie today.

Christ is our kinsman Redeemer. We relate to His humanity only; He is the Federal Head of a new humanity (in Him), not a new human-divinity. The Son did not enter into humanity to bridge the infinite gap between humanity and deity in any sense of the word. That is literally impossible! Even in Him, His humanity did not become divine, nor did His divinity become human. In Him the two co-exist, but the two are not blended. He is fully God and at the same time, fully Man. I believe that Catholicism has stressed the divinity of Christ to the detriment of having lost the glorious purpose of His humanity.

and now He wants to love us as a divine-human beings just as He loves Jesus.

No my friend. Believers are called “beloved” because they are now in Christ, made righteous, adopted as sons, not because they’ve been made "divine-human beings.’

 

[Randy_Carson]

Which idea?

This one:

The believer is forgiven all his sins when he believes.

---

 

[Randy_Carson]

The question is, where is the believer instructed to ask for forgiveness of sins?

Ooh, ooh…I love the easy ones…here it is:

1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" ‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’ " (Luke 11:1-4)

Jesus said, “When you pray, say…forgive us our sins” - that’s an imperative, isn’t it? You’re asking God for daily bread (without which you die) and for His forgiveness (without which you die eternally).

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[sodak]

Correct, that occurs when the believer believes.

How is that false?

Where is that in the Bible? How does it square with this:

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Careful now, it almost sounds like Jesus is saying that we have to **do **something.

…
Long story short, I am here now.

But this is not about my profile, or me. I am asking you to back up your claims as I read the bible and do not see what you do.
I like to know how you conclude what you do, and how you do based on the very same bible I have. And, I have non catholic and catholic versions. And commentaries. But, what confuses me, is why you never answer a direct question and then try to re-direct.

And we hope you stay and stay involved. It’s interesting to watch you note the directness and quality of answers. There are reasons for this, of course, but I don’t want to be uncharitable. We Catholics tend to have an advantage (some would say unfair ) of 2000 years of brilliant scholars whose shoulders we can stand on, and a Church protected by the Holy Spirit.

 

[sandusky]

This one:

The believer is forgiven all his sins when he believes.

---

When people believe the gospel, they receive God’s judicial forgiveness of all their sins, which cancels their going to hell (Jn 3:16; Col 2:13; Rev 20:14).

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Ooh, ooh…I love the easy ones…here it is:

1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" ‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’ " (Luke 11:1-4)

Jesus said, “When you pray, say…forgive us our sins” - that’s an imperative, isn’t it? You’re asking God for daily bread (without which you die) and for His forgiveness (without which you die eternally).

The imperative is “pray in this way.”

The forgiveness asked for is with respect to opheilēma, debts, or moral obligations, and not hamartia sins.

The request for forgiveness is a general entreaty, and not a specific command to seek forgiveness for sins.
Randy Carson:

Ooh, ooh…I love the easy ones…here it is:

1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" ‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’ " (Luke 11:1-4)

Jesus said, “When you pray, say…forgive us our sins” - that’s an imperative, isn’t it? You’re asking God for daily bread (without which you die) and for His forgiveness (without which you die eternally).

The imperative is “pray in this way.”

The forgiveness asked for is with respect to opheilēma, debts, or moral obligations, and not hamartia sins.

The request for forgiveness is a general entreaty, and not a specific command to seek forgiveness for sins.

(cf Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible).

 

[Randy_Carson]

When people believe the gospel, they receive God’s judicial forgiveness of all their sins, which cancels their going to hell (Jn 3:16; Col 2:13; Rev 20:14).

Forgive me…I know we have exchanged posts many times, but I don’t always keep track of everyone’s belief system.

Your position is that we believe in Jesus, all our sins are forgiven, and once we’re saved, we’re always saved.

Right?

 

[sandusky]

Where is that in the Bible? How does it square with this:

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Careful now, it almost sounds like Jesus is saying that we have to **do **something.

What is the will of Christ’s Father who is heaven?

 

[sandusky]

Forgive me…I know we have exchanged posts many times, but I don’t always keep track of everyone’s belief system.

Your position is that we believe in Jesus, all our sins are forgiven, and once we’re saved, we’re always saved.

Right?

Yes, predestination to glory, the same as the CC teaches.

 

[sodak]

What is the will of Christ’s Father who is heaven?

No, I’m actually asking for a direct answer, not another question.

 

[sandusky]

No, I’m actually asking for a direct answer, not another question.

The verse is true; what’s the will of the Father who is in heaven?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, predestination to glory, the same as the CC teaches.

Can salvation be lost?

And are some people predestined to hell, also?

 

[CentralFLJames]

You mean how dare I characterize YOUR teaching as some sort of new age restoration. I see nothing “Apostolic” in it, James. Certainly not Biblical. Your idea of “theosis”…doesn’t resemble at all anything I read in the Scriptures as Apostolic teaching.

The Son (second Person of the Trinity) entered into this world via the virgin birth - i.e., as a MAN. As a MAN, through His sacrificial death (God cannot die), and the shedding of His precious blood, He became man’s “kinsman Redeemer.” In Rom. 5:12-21 Paul describes two MEN, two separate acts by each, with two separate results: condemnation and death through the one; righteousness and life through the Other. Sin reigning in death through the one; grace, reigning through righteousness to eternal life through the other.

In 1 Cor. 15:45-47 Paul describes Jesus as the “second man,” the “Last Adam.” He is the federal head of a new HUMANITY, not a new divinity. The believer’s relationship to the second Person of the Trinity is through His humanity only. The eternal chasm between Divinity and humanity, God and man, the Creator and the creature is not bridged by the incarnate Son. That was not His purpose for birthing into this cosmos. But rather that a body be prepared for Him (Heb. 10:5) “to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb. 9:26), and that as a MAN (resurrected and glorified) to become the Federal Head of a new HUMANITY (the “Last Adam”) through belief in Him.

But this isn’t done by a gradual process called “theosis,” but a creative act of God at the time of belief in Christ:2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."Paul says:1 Cor 1:30 "But by His doing (not yours) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."Notice it is God who places the believer “in Christ Jesus.” It’s not a process called “theosis.” And “righteousness,” “sanctification,” and “redemption,” are words that relate to SALVATION, not deification.

Man will never be anything more than human. Redeemed (in Christ), justified (in Christ), sanctified (in Christ) and glorified (in Christ), yes but, nevertheless, forever, huMAN…says CentralFLJamesI don’t agree with you, James, that the idea of humanity becoming like divinity goes back to the Apostles. In fact,I don’t believe this teaching is Apostolic at all (in any sense of the word), but this insane notion goes far back beyond the time of the Apostles and to the Garden of Eden itself when Satan tempted Eve with the idea that if she ate of the forbidden fruit she would be “like God” (Gen. 3:5). It was a lie then, it remains a lie today.

But the insane notion that the creature can be like the Creator (divinity in any sense of the word) goes back even further than this world’s creation and into the angelic realm itself. In Isaiah chapter 14 God’s prophetic Word gives us a glimpse of the heart of Satan which caused His demise: “I will make myself like the Most High” (Is. 14:b). The same insane notion by which he subsequently tempted Eve - and she bought it.

Since the fall of man every mystery religion that evolved has threaded into its doctrines the basic theme of striving for men to realize their divinity. Seen graphically in the “new age” doctrines of today, captured in the mind sciences. Although there’s nothing new about it, as I have pointed out to you. It was a lie in Satan’s mind, it was lie in the Garden, it remains a lie today.

Christ is our kinsman Redeemer. We relate to His humanity only; He is the Federal Head of a new humanity (in Him), not a new human-divinity. The Son did not enter into humanity to bridge the infinite gap between humanity and deity in any sense of the word. That is literally impossible! Even in Him, His humanity did not become divine, nor did His divinity become human. In Him the two co-exist, but the two are not blended. He is fully God and at the same time, fully Man. I believe that Catholicism has stressed the divinity of Christ to the detriment of having lost the glorious purpose of His humanity.No my friend. Believers are called “beloved” because they are now in Christ, made righteous, adopted as sons, not because they’ve been made "divine-human beings.’

We are getting off topic here. Rather than bog this discussion down I have started a new thread here:
Is Theosis an Apostolic Teaching & is it Taught by The Catholic Church?

James

 

[sandusky]

Can salvation be lost?

No.
Randy Carson:

And are some people predestined to hell, also?

Yes, same as CC predestination.

 

[sodak]

The verse is true; what’s the will of the Father who is in heaven?

I am asking for your direct answer. A question or a Bible quote isn’t a direct answer, unless you tell me what you think it means. If you can’t answer it, just say so.