Sandusky is working to a theory that a double negative gives rise to a single positive and is trying to prove to himself that he is one of the elect by virtue of being the only infallable person on the planet that can read God’s mind as well as do the math on the assumption that God uses multiplication to populate heaven and only addition and subtraction of negative numbers work in hell.
It doesn’t need to be discussed here.
Yes, they forgot the purification of their former sins.
But in James 5:14-15 the sins are forgiven at that time…at the anointing of the sick. Sure, the sickness might be a result of the sin…but my point is that the sins are forgiven at that time…“and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him”. Not just a reminder of past forgiveness, but forgiveness at this time. Right?
The context here is “if we walk in the Light”…meaning a lot…walking in the Spirit’s power, being honest with the truth, etc. which I think includes confession of sin. I think the “if we walk in the Light…and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” includes the “if we confess”…which elaborates. See the development…“if we walk in the Light” (v. 7), “if we say we have no sin” (v. 8), “if we confess” (v. 9). I believe John is just elaborating “if we walk in the Light”.
Yes, the complete set of existing sins (past sins).
Jesus explained it best. He told the story of how a person is saved:
I believe in election and still don’t believe in OSAS. I think salvation is a process (cf. my signature line). I think the final reaping of eternal life, if we don’t grow weary, is part of the process…and this hasn’t happened yet. It certainly will, but often I think Scripture references the whole process as a whole…from God’s perspective, outside of time.
Yes…worded in third person…“them”. Not “you” or “me”. I believe the elect will be given the gift of perseverance. I just depend on God’s future grace for this.
Yes; at the point he first believed he was purified. He was then purified not only of his former sins, but all of sins. The clear teaching of Christ’s atonement is that it’s complete. I know your church doesn’t teach that; however, that’s the core of the apostolic gospel with respect to sin. That’s why it’s called Good News. The news your proclaiming is not as good as the news the apostles proclaimed.
All sin of those who believe are judicially forgiven when the believer believes (Col 2:13ff). Now you as a Catholic have no difficulty understanding “temporal consequence” of committed sin; correct?
I understand the context of the passage; but, more importantly, I understand what Christ’s death accomplished—complete forgiveness of the sins of His people. When he first believed, the believer repented of his sins and confessed them, and he will continue to do so for the remainder of his earthly life.
No, all of them.
My experience here has shown me that Catholics have difficulty with warnings and admonitions in Scripture, and that they are able to infer only thing—you can lose your salvation.
Of course you don’t. A central tenant of a works-based soteriology posits that the sphere of the faithful’s earthly existence includes the potential to forfeit his salvation—very sad.
Of course you do; that’s what the CC teaches, and again, that’s a core belief of a works-based soteriology. But salvation is an act of God, in which He justifies the believer—forever—on the basis of faith. There’s a “process” within salvation—sanctification—but that process is not salvation, but a continual movement away from sin to holiness.
OK.
Sandusky, what exactly do you think you are accomplishing? What you have written above is a ridiculous, futile exercise with no purpose except at some point to give you satisfaction that you have won some argument.Yes; at the point he first believed he was purified. He was then purified not only of his former sins, but all of sins. The clear teaching of Christ’s atonement is that it’s complete. I know your church doesn’t teach that; however, that’s the core of the apostolic gospel with respect to sin. That’s why it’s called Good News. The news your proclaiming is not as good as the news the apostles proclaimed.
All sin of those who believe are judicially forgiven when the believer believes (Col 2:13ff). Now you as a Catholic have no difficulty understanding “temporal consequence” of committed sin; correct?
Well, the completely forgiven believer runs the risk of incurring discipline for sins he presently commits and for which he is not repentant.
Christ, in the securing of judicial forgiveness for His people, also secures “parental” forgiveness for them.
The completely forgiven believer will continue to sin, and that sinning requires repentance on his part, even though the forgiveness of all his sins is complete before God. When a saved person deals with known sin in his life through repentance, he receives God’s parental forgiveness, which cancels divine corrective chastisement, that which you refer to as “temporal consequence” (Rev 3:19; 1 Cor 11:27-32), because Jesus also dealt with that aspect of the sins of His people (1 Jn 1:7), as well as with the judicial aspect of the sins of His people (Col 1:13-14).
I understand the context of the passage; but, more importantly, I understand what Christ’s death accomplished—complete forgiveness of the sins of His people. When he first believed, the believer repented of his sins and confessed them, and he will continue to do so for the remainder of his earthly life.
No, all of them.
When Christ died on that cross, I died with Him (Rom 6), and I wasn’t even alive at the time. He didn’t die, at that time, only for my past sins, because, at that time, I hadn’t committed any sins, I wasn’t alive—Christ died for the forgiveness of all of my sins, past, present, and future.
My experience here has shown me that Catholics have difficulty with warnings and admonitions in Scripture, and that they are able to infer only thing—you can lose your salvation.
The Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, that by His sacrifice, all sin has been forgiven; I’m sorry you refuse to believe that.
I appreciate this
You may be correct in the sense of the academic or Philisophical, but these things still have no bearing upon the life, mission, and tasks of the Christian.
I believe that Jesus’ death is the propitiation for all sins for all time. But that’s not the same as someone receiving forgiveness for their sins. Many people won’t be forgiven their sins, even though the propitiation was for all sin. When we confess, we can be forgiven and God’s justice can be retained since the propitiation was made. He can save forever all that draw near to God through Him because He always lives to intercede (Heb 7:25). He can intercede and get our sins forgiven based on His propitiation.
Yes, and the discipline us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32).
Now you’ve got two kinds of sin. Sin is an offense against God and when we sin there is a separation. Forgiveness restores the fellowship and eliminates the punishment. Grave sins will exclude one from the kingdom of heaven (Gal 5:19-21) so we know that the punishment in view might be eternal.
But you haven’t proved that the future sins are forgiven right now. Otherwise, the warnings in Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:7-9, etc. wouldn’t make sense. We’re not under obligation to walk by the Spirit lest we die (Rom 8:12-13). I believe it’s eternal death since a parallel passage in Gal 6:7-9 speaks of reaping eternal life vs. corruption.
No, see my sig line…true repentance leads to salvation…not just some “parental forgiveness” that’s outside of true forgiveness of sin. In 1 Jn 1:9 the context is real sin because of the need for Jesus real true propitiation for sin (three verses later). If this forgiveness requires Jesus’ bloody propitiation, then it’s real sin…not just some “family friction”.
Yes, and when he confesses, he will be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. So now will you tell me there are two kinds of unrighteousness?
I’ve heard that argument, but I’m not convinced it’s true. He was truly the propitiation for all sins for all time. But propitiation on Jesus’ part isn’t equal to our forgiveness…we weren’t born forgiven. We were forgiven in time, even though the propitiation occurred in the past. And since we have passages relating to future forgiveness of sins, I believe we’re forgiven our future sins when we confess.
Gal 6:7-9 warns us…God won’t be mocked…if we sow to the flesh we’ll reap corruption, if we sow to the Spirit we’ll reap eternal life…we’ll reap if we don’t grow weary. So the “we” is Christians, and there’s an “if”…if we don’t grow weary.
I think all sins have been paid for. But of course some will not be forgiven. So we know that the propiation isn’t the same as forgiveness. He was the propitiation for all sins of the whole world for all time. We’re forgiven at baptism (“don’t delay…go and be baptized and wash away your sins” - Acts 22:16) and when we confess (1 Jn 1:9), and when the sick are anointed (James 5:14-15). It says sins are “forgiven”. I don’t see two types of forgiveness…just one.The Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, that by His sacrifice, all sin has been forgiven; I’m sorry you refuse to believe that.
But if you agree with the Catholic Encyclopedias’ position on predestination, then you know you can’t be 100% certain of your own salvation to begin with.Of course you don’t. A central tenant of a works-based soteriology posits that the sphere of the faithful’s earthly existence includes the potential to forfeit his salvation—very sad.
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But God has to work in us so we won’t be condemned…He’s shaping us up. For instance, the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32). That anticipates us having to be in shape so we won’t be condemned along with the world. That’s faith plus God’s future workmanship.Of course you don’t. A central tenant of a works-based soteriology posits that the sphere of the faithful’s earthly existence includes the potential to forfeit his salvation—very sad.
You delinitate beween a “works-based soteriology” and salvation being an “act of God”. Sure it’s God’s work…in us. What is impossible for man is possible with God. We have his Spirit so we’ll obey…we confess when we stumble and are forgiven, and the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world. So we know God’s workmanship is required…it’s not just a “stamp of righteousness” but actual discipline to shape us up so we won’t be condemned.
OK; I have one objection to what you say, but it’s not important at this point.
It deals with both. One’s sins, past, present and future, are forgiven at the first point of repentance and belief. Because at that point, he’s also declared righteous by God (Rom 4:1ff).
Who’s got two kinds of sin?
The elimination of punishment, and forgiveness of sins, and the beginning of fellowship is based on Christ’s atonement.
Nothing can exclude the justified from the kingdom—nothing.
I’ll never be able to prove that to you; that’s the Spirit’s realm. You see, we have completely diverse views of God, of Christ, and what His sacrifice has accomplished, and diverse views of man’s condition, such that no amount of explanation by me will ever persuade you.
I understand your understanding of the warnings—they mean that the justified can lose their salvation—that’s the only possible explanation of which you can conceive, because that’s the only thing that makes sense to you.
True repentance leads to complete forgiveness of sin; as I said, however, the faithful will continue to sin, and therefore, as “adopted children” they will be in need of parental forgiveness.
All sin is real sin, and all sin, for the justified, is completely forgiven at the time of their justification.
Why would you want me to tell you that?
I know.
The elect won’t be lost—God won’t allow it.
OK.
I’m not following you here.
I don’t agree with CC predestination, but posted that for the edification of Randy Carson and CentralFLJames.
Jesus never taught the Solas. They came about and were articulated at the time of the reformation as a result of the abuses and errors of the CC.
Jesus didn’t teach everything in a doctrinal sense; He left the apostles to teach the fuller revelation and doctrine concerning salvation (Jn 16:13)
- so: grace grace grace 