How are we saved?

[moondweller]

Yes I read it, and I still see; Since the Apostolic age, the gospel of salvation, through faith … alone…

You said one is ‘saved through faith alone’, ‘the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins’ being equated with ‘salvation through Faith Alone’.

The Apostle, however, says this to you about Faith Alone - if you believe Faith Alone ‘saves’ you; 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Context, my friend. James wasn’t talking about obtaining salvation, but the demonstration of one’s professed faith: James 2:14-18 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that? Even so faith (i.e., professed faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."James goes on to cite Abraham as the example of one who demonstrated his faith (in God’s promise) by his willingness to offer up his only son to sacrifice. He ***showed ***his faith - the faith by which God justified Him years prior to his demonstration of it by willing to offer up his son.

This is what James wanted out of his readers. Get it?

 

[Philthy]

The name “Protestant.” Against this the Lutheran Princes made formal protest, and henceforth were known as “Protestants.”" (Halley’s Bible Handbook)

So you see, Phil, the name originated with the Catholics actually protesting against the Lutherans, eventually by the Pope declaring all out war against them, backed by indulgences.

Thank you for the information. I disagree with your conclusion. The Lutheran Princes made formal protest - against the ruling of the Catholic Church - and were henceforth known as “Protestants”.

 

[Thing]

Context, my friend. James wasn’t talking about obtaining salvation, but the demonstration of one’s professed faith: James 2:14-18 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that? Even so faith (i.e., professed faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."James goes on to cite Abraham as the example of one who demonstrated his faith (in God’s promise) by his willingness to offer up his only son to sacrifice. He ***showed ***his faith - the faith by which God justified Him years prior to his demonstration of it by willing to offer up his son.

This is what James wanted out of his readers. Get it?

So if your faith does not work it will not save you, so faith without works will not save you. So how does faith alone save you. So you now have faith but, so far, no works, how long can you go without working and still be saved. You cannot be saved if your faith does not work. Either your faith works from the beginning or it will not save you. So, either you need works from the beginning or you do not work, in which case you are not ‘saved’.

 

[moondweller]

So if your faith does not work it will not save you, so faith without works will not save you. So how does faith alone save you. So you now have faith but, so far, no works, how long can you go without working and still be saved. You cannot be saved if your faith does not work. Either your faith works from the beginning or it will not save you. So, either you need works from the beginning or you do not work, in which case you are not ‘saved’.

No, you’re perverting what James is saying. All he’s saying, in context, to his readers is demonstrate toward one another the faith by which God justified you. He is no way saying to them that works saves or justifies them. He never deviates from faith.James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that? Even so faith (i.e., a merely said faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself."It’s useless within the body of Christ. The true believer is created in Christ FOR good works, not BY them.

He’s not attacking faith as the ground for salvation/justification - God forbid!!! James agreed with Paul’s gospel/doctrine of salvation/justification by faith alone, which he took to the Gentiles. James is not preaching another gospel of works to the Jews. Don’t pervert him.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

The question is, where is the believer instructed to ask for forgiveness of sins?

I take this passage in 1 John to relate to believers. And the sick person who is anointed and gets forgiveness of sins is a believer also (“Is anyone among you sick?”) (James 5:14-15)

And this guy is a believer…

James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Save his soul from death! And sins are covered here. His past sins were covered when he converted (Rom 4…blessed is the man whose sins are covered…). And when he sins and repents again, those sins are covered here. Presumably he confessed and repented.

God bless you,

 

[sodak]

No, you’re perverting what James is saying. All he’s saying, in context, to his readers is demonstrate toward one another the faith by which God justified you. He is no way saying to them that works saves or justifies them. He never deviates from faith.James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that? Even so faith (i.e., a merely said faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself."It’s useless within the body of Christ. The true believer is created in Christ FOR good works, not BY them.

He’s not attacking faith as the ground for salvation/justification - God forbid!!! James agreed with Paul’s gospel/doctrine of salvation/justification by faith alone, which he took to the Gentiles. James is not preaching another gospel of works to the Jews. Don’t pervert him.

You forgot the rest of the verse, the one that challenges what you are trying to say. You have to accept the entire Bible, no matter how inconvenient…

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Thing]

No, you’re perverting what James is saying. All he’s saying, in context, to his readers is demonstrate toward one another the faith by which God justified you. He is no way saying to them that works saves or justifies them. He never deviates from faith.James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that? Even so faith (i.e., a merely said faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself."It’s useless within the body of Christ. The true believer is created in Christ FOR good works, not BY them.

He’s not attacking faith as the ground for salvation/justification - God forbid!!! James agreed with Paul’s gospel/doctrine of salvation/justification by faith alone, which he took to the Gentiles. James is not preaching another gospel of works to the Jews. Don’t pervert him.

what use is that?

Even so faith (i.e., a merely said faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself."[/indent]It’s useless within the body of Christ. The true believer is created in Christ FOR good works, not BY them.
If the believer who was created for good works freely refuses to do good works they are not saved. Always, the believer is free, at every moment to respond and complete the works set aside for him - or not.

Let me use an analogy, if I can;
Lets say Faith is defined as Trust. If I trust someone, St James says, I don’t simply say I trust them, I must act trustingly. My trust must work. It must be a working Trust, or else it is a useless lip-service trust. My trust is either in an on or an off position, it must not alternate or I risk everything.
If someone asks me if I trust them and I just say, yes, but decline to act; that is ‘trust alone without works’.
The trust I ought to have is one which acts, or, works.
If you say you don’t need works - you are really saying that you don’t need to Trust, - since, the only useful Trust is the Trust that works, you cannot have Trust if it does’nt work.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Context, my friend. James wasn’t talking about obtaining salvation, but the demonstration of one’s professed faith: James 2:14-18 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that? Even so faith (i.e., professed faith), if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."James goes on to cite Abraham as the example of one who demonstrated his faith (in God’s promise) by his willingness to offer up his only son to sacrifice. He ***showed ***his faith - the faith by which God justified Him years prior to his demonstration of it by willing to offer up his son.

This is what James wanted out of his readers. Get it?

Yes, but James goes on to say that Gen 15:6 (justification in the eyes of God) is fulfilled here too (2:22-23). Then he summarizes one is justified “not by faith alone”. So the works that result from faith (all gifts of God) fulfill Gen 15:6 again…and play a part in justification. Right before this passage, James warned “for judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triunphs over judgment.” (2:13). Then the passage you cite immediately follows. This merciless judgment will happen to anyone who does not show mercy. Therefore, if God changes our nature, the resultant works of that change play a part in our justification…since we have to show mercy to avoid merciless judgment. Right?

 

[Philthy]

No, you’re perverting what James is saying. All he’s saying, in context, to his readers is demonstrate toward one another the faith by which God justified you.

This interpretation, taken in the context of my understanding of your theology always leaves me wondering, “What’s the point?”
What is the point, exactly, of demonstrating - through good works - ones faith? Does it relate to salvation? Does it have eternal consequence?

 

[sandusky]

fhansen:

But what is sanctification besides the process of becoming more just/holy/righteous in actuality? The difference lies in the fact that this justice must be complete for a Catholic before entrance into heaven.

Well, look, I wish you well in your quest to obtain sufficient merit for entry into heaven, and I hope that the Father has seen fit to appoint the time of your death at a point when you are in a state of grace.

 

[sandusky]

By His Mercy:

I take this passage in 1 John to relate to believers. And the sick person who is anointed and gets forgiveness of sins is a believer also (“Is anyone among you sick?”) (James 5:14-15)

And this guy is a believer…

James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Save his soul from death! And sins are covered here. His past sins were covered when he converted (Rom 4…blessed is the man whose sins are covered…). And when he sins and repents again, those sins are covered here. Presumably he confessed and repented.

OK.

 

[sandusky]

JRKH:

By what revelation or authority can you be certain that the Teachings of the “Reformers” are correct?

By the revelation of God in the scripture.

JRKH:

Since the Post was edited by Michael Francis, I’m not sure wht this might refer to.

Sorry, I was issued an infraction for what I posted, and so, I won’t repeat it.

JRKH:

I certainly hope you have mispoke here, for certainly you know that The Word of God who is Jesus Christ is the Authority over Scripture. It is the Holy Spirit of God who must grant us the Wisdom to Properly understand Scripture.

Unfortunately it is just the belief you state above that has led to the horrible splintering of Christ’s message into so many denominations.

There is but one True Sola and that is Christ, working through His Church.

Actually, the cause of splintering is sin, and that’s true of splinters throughout the history of the Church, and IMO, the preponderance of the blame for all of that should be laid at the feet of the RCC. But that’s my opinion.

 

[fhansen]

Well, look, I wish you well in your quest to obtain sufficient merit for entry into heaven, and I hope that the Father has seen fit to appoint the time of your death at a point when you are in a state of grace.

Well, if I’m one of the elect then, of course, His grace will be sufficient to pull it off.

 

[sandusky]

Well, if I’m one of the elect then, of course, His grace will be sufficient to pull it off.

But which kind of elect? Those to eternal blessedness, or those to grace which can be resisted only?

 

[fhansen]

But which kind of elect? Those to eternal blessedness, or those to grace which can be resisted only?

Well of course I wouldn’t presume to know with the kind of certainty which the One who gives the grace has about these things. It’s not Him I don’t trust 100%-it’s myself. But He’s given me ongoing assurances, great ones and small ones over the years, building my faith by steps until it’s pretty hard to doubt that He who began a good work in me wouldn’t carry it through to completion. But still I know I must be vigilant and keep my lamp burning- cuz that’s what He says and I know Him well enough now to know that that’s how it is.

 

[sandusky]

Well of course I wouldn’t presume to know with the kind of certainty which the One who gives the grace has about these things. It’s not Him I don’t trust 100%-it’s myself.

Well, IMO, if you had a right understanding of the Gospel of Christ, you wouldn’t trust in yourself, or in sacraments, at all, but you would trust in Him completely and only. Then, you wouldn’t have to presume anything, but would be sure of everything.

 

[Philthy]

Well, IMO, if you had a right understanding of the Gospel of Christ, you wouldn’t trust in yourself, or in sacraments, at all, but you would trust in Him completely and only. Then, you wouldn’t have to presume anything, but would be sure of everything.

ISTM that one would still have to presume that one had a “right understanding” of the Gospel. You are presuming that you do. Others, who also presume that they do, disagree with you.

 

[moondweller]

You forgot the rest of the verse, the one that challenges what you are trying to say. You have to accept the entire Bible, no matter how inconvenient…

It doesn’t challenge it at all. He continues to emphasize the same point in the same context. The difference between a true faith and a mere said faith (Ja. 2:14-18). Don’t lift him out of context.

You might compare it to the difference between one who is religiously baptized and one who is baptized after he has truly believed in Christ. The baptism of the former is dead, the baptism of the latter reflects his true faith, but the baptism didn’t save him, his personal faith in Christ did.

 

[ron77nyc]

If a person repents and believes shortly before his death and has no opportunity to do good works is he saved?

 

[clmowry]

If a person repents and believes shortly before his death and has no opportunity to do good works is he saved?

Hopefully.

Maybe, maybe not.

Only God knows.

Chuck