How are we to know if 'religious' experiences are really religious?

[Robert_Sock]

In our super-advanced technological era, is it now possible to implant messages in one’s mind to make it seem that a given experience is religious?

 

[erine]

Generally there are three sources for mystical / religious phenomena: God, oneself, or the devil. It is good to learn to discern spirits. St. John talks about testing spirits in his letters in the Bible. The devil can appear as an angel of light. But we shouldn’t be too paranoid either if we can test these experiences.

I suppose mental illness could be a source but I don’t always define too clearly because I know mentally I’ll people who have had intimate experiences with Christ and who know the difference between that and a mental issue.

Whatever the experience just ask God to use it to bring us closer to Him and to protect from evil. The experiences are not as important as loving God and our neighbor. Some Saints never had any such phenomena but they simply showed heroic charity. And plenty of non Christians and people in bad religions can have certain experiences too, so we should test the, and focus more on virtue. But if they happen and are from Gid we should accept the gift too.

 

[St_Francis]

Demons have always been able to do something similar to this–it’s why the Church so carefully investigates apparitions and the like.

Saints generally counsel us to ignore extraordinary supernatural experiences.

Here is an overview of the subject which may help. The more specific information is towards the end.

 

[englishredrose]

u just gotta have faith …

Okay it helps us when we share our ‘religious’ experience with others and they agree with us but in reality any experience that we want to label as religious then it about our faith and being with God.

How do you actually define religious experience anyway coz every time we go to church that is religious and that is an experience both of which together could be described as a religious experience before we delve into our own context of the phrase.

But basically for me that its about having faith.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What I had in mind when I used the label ‘religious experiences’ was things like apparitions, profound dreams, or deep spiritual insight.

 

[J_Peterson]

You can judge a tree by it’s fruit. If the experience was transformative and leads you deeper into your faith and Church I would say they were real. If they didn’t lead anywhere except as a pleasant diversion or into pride than it’s most likely your own imagination or something worse.

This where being Catholic is important. If an experience leads you to something that goes against the Church it should be ignored (even if it was real). God will only lead you to God.

 

[livingwordunity]

If the experience is completely compatible with what is taught by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church then one can know that it’s not from demons and is therefore safe for one’s private belief as long as one doesn’t try to get others to believe that it happened without the Church giving official approval of it.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

In our super-advanced technological era, is it now possible to implant messages in one’s mind to make it seem that a given experience is religious?

Rergardless of what technology might be able to do, you’d judge if an experience is “religious” or “spiritual” in the same way you judge any other experience - by using your own mind.

How would you know you had a sexual experience? Emotional experience? Logical experience eg. solving a maths problem? Conversational experience? Sport experience? Road rage experience? Criminal experience? Shopping experience? Work experience? Bullying experience?..

By using your mind, no matter what the super advanced technologies might do.

And it’s the same for “religious” experiences. That’s why it intrigues me that atheists are prepared to allow every other possible experience except “religious”, yet the whole lot depend on our mind and our own interpretation. All that demonstrates is their blind bigotry.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Rergardless of what technology might be able to do, you’d judge if an experience is “religious” or “spiritual” in the same way you judge any other experience - by using your own mind.

How would you know you had a sexual experience? Emotional experience? Logical experience eg. solving a maths problem? Conversational experience? Sport experience? Road rage experience? Criminal experience? Shopping experience? Work experience? Bullying experience?..

By using your mind, no matter what the super advanced technologies might do.

And it’s the same for “religious” experiences. That’s why it intrigues me that atheists are prepared to allow every other possible experience except “religious”, yet the whole lot depend on our mind and our own interpretation. All that demonstrates is their blind bigotry.

But my point is that the mind can be deceived when it comes to religious experiences. For example, how do we know that a perceived religious experience did not come from the Angel of Light, Lucifer? Or, how do we know such an experience did not come from man, with advanced knowledge in psychology? You seem to be begging the question.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

But my point is that the mind can be deceived when it comes to religious experiences. For example, how do we know that a perceived religious experience did not come from the Angel of Light, Lucifer? Or, how do we know such an experience did not come from man, with advanced knowledge in psychology? You seem to be begging the question.

No, I’m not begging the question. You still use your mind. You make a decision based on what you know of the circumstances, other people’s experiences, the wisdom of others, the character of the person making the claims etc.

In the end, there is nothing else you can use other than your mind since every single experience comes to you via your senses and your mind in some form.

As for being deceived, you can be deceived about even ordinary things if it comes to that. Get three people to see an accident, and they’ll probably give you three different accounts. But what they’ll agree on is that they saw an accident.

I’ve said ad infinitum that the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. He “materialised” near the door (It was not a solid materialisations, since he appeared ghostlike throughout the exchange), started with an apology for 20 years of deliberate and destructive cruelty, we argued and talked and then he disappeared with one almighty scream.

How do I know it was him, and not just a dream, or from the devil?

Well, I make some judgements.

For a start, I remember my uncle turning up four days later to tell me he’d died, but telling me it was a mess as his body wasn’t found for four days. I remember standing there when he told me that, counting back four days, and thinking “Then what the hell was that the other night?!”

I remember some of my father’s predictions on that night, one of which was, specifically, “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”

I met the pastor nearly four years later when I became a Christian. About nine years after that, I had him apologise of his own free admission, that “I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” So 13 years after my father’s apparition, I had the pastor himself apologise to me while repeating my father’s prediction almost word for word.

Then I read that apparently the devil can’t tell the future according to exorcists, therefore it could not have been the devil or a demon who appeared, since he wouldn’t know four years in advance that I’d meet the pastor, or that in 13 years the pastor would apologise to me as just outlined.

I weigh the experience up, in the light of subsequent events, Biblical advice about testing the spirits, the wisdom of others (including the above pastor), a Catholic psychiatrist I see a couple of times a year (and who believes I saw my father that night) etc.

I’m convinced that my father appeared in my room the night he died. And I think God sent him, specifically to apologise, and also to get across to me an object lesson in judgement. My father’s departing scream was sheer, absolute terror. He then promptly disappeared.

I was an atheist at the time, and not living a particularly good life.

It all comes back to your mind. You have to make a judgement.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I went to make a cup of Milo after writing the above post, and thought about the “devil can’t tell the future”.

Let’s take the incident of my father turning up in my room, and he makes the prediction about the pastor. Now I don’t have any doubt that the devil, or one or more of his demons, were privy to our exchange. They would have witnessed it.

First of all, how did my father know about the pastor - pretty obvious - God was showing him. He was showing him some other stuff too because at one stage he blurted out, “What have I done!?” To wit, he was being shown his actions could lead to very serious consequences down the track.

Anyway the demonic realm would have been aware via the apparition that I was going to meet this pastor. Quite possibly they could see the pastor as my father could see him, simply because he was shown. So in that regard, they would have been aware of his identity.

Even if they couldn’t see him, they’d have immediately started doing an analysis. We know Crowley was baptised Presbyterian, and not particularly adventurous, so he’ll probably go to a Presbyterian Church if he does become Christian. It will probably be somewhere in Brisbane, and being a stickler for areas he already knows, it will probably be close to where he grew up. Now who do we know amongst the Presbyterian pastors who is both wise, but also has a tendency to discourage? And what can we do to get this relationship off to a rocky start.

I’d only been in the pastor’s church for about six months when he eldest son committed suicide. He’d had manic depression since he was about fifteen, and it just got too much. Coincidence? I don’t know, but it wasn’t a particularly great way to start. A bloke I shared digs with in the first couple of years lost his brother when he was drowned in a flood and his remains were found washed up on a farm fence. Coincidence? I don’t know, but I had this sense the devil was dogging my footsteps somewhat.

So they probably had a pretty good idea who the pastor was going to be even before I met him, despite “not being able to see the future”.

So there are other minds at work also, even in the supernatural world. It comes down to a battle of minds in the end.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, I’m not begging the question. You still use your mind. You make a decision based on what you know of the circumstances, other people’s experiences, the wisdom of others, the character of the person making the claims etc.

In the end, there is nothing else you can use other than your mind since every single experience comes to you via your senses and your mind in some form.

As for being deceived, you can be deceived about even ordinary things if it comes to that. Get three people to see an accident, and they’ll probably give you three different accounts. But what they’ll agree on is that they saw an accident.

I’ve said ad infinitum that the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. He “materialised” near the door (It was not a solid materialisations, since he appeared ghostlike throughout the exchange), started with an apology for 20 years of deliberate and destructive cruelty, we argued and talked and then he disappeared with one almighty scream.

How do I know it was him, and not just a dream, or from the devil?

Well, I make some judgements.

For a start, I remember my uncle turning up four days later to tell me he’d died, but telling me it was a mess as his body wasn’t found for four days. I remember standing there when he told me that, counting back four days, and thinking “Then what the hell was that the other night?!”

I remember some of my father’s predictions on that night, one of which was, specifically, “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”

I met the pastor nearly four years later when I became a Christian. About nine years after that, I had him apologise of his own free admission, that “I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” So 13 years after my father’s apparition, I had the pastor himself apologise to me while repeating my father’s prediction almost word for word.

Then I read that apparently the devil can’t tell the future according to exorcists, therefore it could not have been the devil or a demon who appeared, since he wouldn’t know four years in advance that I’d meet the pastor, or that in 13 years the pastor would apologise to me as just outlined.

I weigh the experience up, in the light of subsequent events, Biblical advice about testing the spirits, the wisdom of others (including the above pastor), a Catholic psychiatrist I see a couple of times a year (and who believes I saw my father that night) etc.

I’m convinced that my father appeared in my room the night he died. And I think God sent him, specifically to apologise, and also to get across to me an object lesson in judgement. My father’s departing scream was sheer, absolute terror. He then promptly disappeared.

I was an atheist at the time, and not living a particularly good life.

It all comes back to your mind. You have to make a judgement.

That’s some story, and I’m inclined to believe that it was indeed a religious experience!

My religious experience:

My mother always loved roses. On her first birthday after her death I was sitting in church and I got the idea to ask her to send me a rose if she was in Heaven. I quickly forgot all about it for 3 days. But on the third day while in church I remembered what I had asked for and looking up to Heaven I thought to myself how cheated I felt for not having received a rose. Then, something forced my head to look down and there was a rose right next to my foot. It was the most awesome experience! There were no other roses in the church that day except the one by my foot, right where I always sat.

 

[Bradski]

Maybe you should ask yourself how you would know if someone else has had a religious experience.

How do you know that, for example, someone has been told that he has to commit himself to helping the poor for the rest of his life. Sounds OK, I’ll bet.

But what if he says that he has to do something you perceive to be very unpleasant indeed.

Would you believe both without question, or just the warm and fuzzy one?

 

[Blinky]

Matthew 7:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Maybe you should ask yourself how you would know if someone else has had a religious experience.

How do you know that, for example, someone has been told that he has to commit himself to helping the poor for the rest of his life. Sounds OK, I’ll bet.

But what if he says that he has to do something you perceive to be very unpleasant indeed.

Would you believe both without question, or just the warm and fuzzy one?

You weigh it up in the light of what you know about Christ. You seek advice from other wise Christians. You talk to people. You check it out. You take into account what you know of the person’s character.

I once asked my old pastor how do you know up front if a particular “religious” experience is from God or the devil. He thought for a moment, and replied, “You don’t”. To misquote another phrase, the unexamined experience is not worth obeying, or heeding.

It’s a good idea to check out these sorts of experiences against the Bible, what’s being asked, the person’s character, advice from others, etc. When the Church canonises saints due to the 2 miracle rule, usually two miraculous medical healings, they go through the record very thoroughly. They check out the person’s medical history, talk to the doctors, talk to hospital staff etc. etc. They don’t just take the patient’s word for it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Maybe you should ask yourself how you would know if someone else has had a religious experience.

How do you know that, for example, someone has been told that he has to commit himself to helping the poor for the rest of his life. Sounds OK, I’ll bet.

But what if he says that he has to do something you perceive to be very unpleasant indeed.

Would you believe both without question, or just the warm and fuzzy one?

I had what I thought were religious experiences where I was told to quite my career as a research psychologist and instead focus on religion. It was very stressful, but I did it, and never looked back.

 

[Bradski]

You weigh it up in the light of what you know about Christ…

How many times have I been told: Who can know the mind of God?

Are you saying that you would know? To the extent that you could categorically say that someone was acting on behalf of God and was not delusional? As I said, if the person is saying that they want to do something you consider to be good, you might have a tendency to accept it (in the light of what you know about Christ). But if it’s something with which you personally disagree?

I would suggest that you would have as much of an idea as me, Bob.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

But my point is that the mind can be deceived when it comes to religious experiences. For example, how do we know that a perceived religious experience did not come from the Angel of Light, Lucifer? Or, how do we know such an experience did not come from man, with advanced knowledge in psychology? You seem to be begging the question.

Like others said, you look at the fruit or outcome of the experience, if it leads you in the direction of God or truth then it’s real, if it leads you away from God or the truth then it’s false or from the devil or man. If man uses some kind of technology to duplicate a religious experience, it will NOT be for purpose of leading you TO God, if he wanted to lead you to God he’d do it the right way. So if it comes from man or the devil the purpose will be to lead you away from God and away from the truth. If the experience makes you stronger and leads you closer to God then it’s real. The devil doesn’t do things to make people love God more or move closer to God. His purpose is to move people **away **from God. So that’s how you judge it. What effect did the experience have on your life and your way of thinking?

I’ve had religious experiences too and I still love God and move closer to Him so if the effect leads you closer to God, then it’s real.

I would question any kind of experience no matter how real it seemed if it was leading me in a path I know is against the church or God’s word. The devil can be very deceitful, but people can be deceived by other **people **too, and once you find out someone deceived you, you move on, you don’t start to distrust every interaction with people just because of one deceiver. Divorce happens a lot but that doesn’t mean people should stop getting married, many marriages do last forever still even today. So yes the devil can deceive through supernatural experiences but don’t distrust all supernatural experiences because of that. So like someone else said, it’s really no different than judging human interactions and experiences, some people deceive and some people don’t, some people lie and some are honest, and the same ways we judge our experiences with people within certain contexts is the same way we judge religious experiences. Their context and where it leads you. Like the rose means something to the previous poster, but a rose by my foot would mean nothing, but other signs or symbols would mean something to me that would mean nothing to other people, that’s what I mean by context, and it’s impossible for someone to know for sure about someone else’s experience because you don’t know their life experience and what the thing means within the context of their life. Those are personal religious experiences that are hard for others to understand the way you can.

 

[rossum]

Saints generally counsel us to ignore extraordinary supernatural experiences.

As do Zen Masters:

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

– Zen is Boring

rossum

 

[Bradski]

Like others said, you look at the fruit or outcome of the experience, if it leads you in the direction of God or truth then it’s real, if it leads you away from God or the truth then it’s false…

Notwithstanding that you are declaring yourself capable of discerning what Truth is…

I live south of where I work. When I drive home tonight I’ll start off by heading north to join the main road which takes me home. Am I heading in the wrong direction when I start off?

Someone may say that he has been told by God Himself to act in a particular way and you might think it’s wrong to do so. Is he lying about his revelation? Do you know what the final outcome will be? Do you assume that his actions will eventually lead him in the right direction?

I would respectfully suggest that you would have no idea at all.