How are we to understand Sociopaths?

[Della]

Why? Wouldn’t you want sociopaths barred from political office?

Not necessarily. I can see how they’d make great wartime presidents as well as being able to stand up to foreign powers, such as China. Although they can be dangerous and even heartless, they are also intelligent and able to get what they want. I’d be all right with them getting what America needs. I rather think Nixon was sociopathic. If he hadn’t made the mistake of backing up those who caused the Watergate affair, he’d be remembered as one of our best presidents. Sociopaths do what they think others expect of them in order to be admired. Their personal lives are often a mess; they can be backhanded and cruel, but they also have gifts that shouldn’t be neglected because of their other handicaps. We all have our limitations and handicaps. Some are just more apparent to others.

 

[karbear]

I am wondering why brain wiring could ever excuse doing evil. We know people by their fruits. Its hard to believe that any sort of mental handicap would cause a person to bear bad fruits instead of good in their lives. Maybe they are wired that way, but they know, they have full knowledge that they are choosing x as opposed to y.

 

[Della]

I am wondering why brain wiring could ever excuse doing evil. We know people by their fruits. Its hard to believe that any sort of mental handicap would cause a person to bear bad fruits instead of good in their lives. Maybe they are wired that way, but they know, they have full knowledge that they are choosing x as opposed to y.

There’s the rub, as they say. Of course, anyone who breaks the law has to pay the price, but there are lesser penalties for those who are found mentally incompetent. The Jeffery McDonald case is an example of a sociopathic killer charming everyone into almost believing he couldn’t have killed his pregnant wife and two little girls, but he did, and a court found him guilty.

God judges by what a person knows and can comprehend, as I’m sure you agree. So, we leave it up to him to decide who knows what and why they do what they do. If what they do isn’t a matter for the law to sort out, we can’t make that determination but hope that those afflicted with this condition, if it is a natural handicap, will get the help they need and harm no one.

 

[chevalier]

I am wondering why brain wiring could ever excuse doing evil. We know people by their fruits. Its hard to believe that any sort of mental handicap would cause a person to bear bad fruits instead of good in their lives. Maybe they are wired that way, but they know, they have full knowledge that they are choosing x as opposed to y.

Having sick ideas does not justify acting them out but mortal sin requires full consent in addition to full knowledge (supposing that full knowledge is there). Sometimes addictions (for example) mitigate mortal sins to venial ones because the person does not have the full use of his will. Brain wiring could have similar consequences here to some extent. Or especially brain damage, as in physical brain damage (e.g. due to a wound).

 

[BernadetteM]

The one I was married to, knew and was proud of being a sociopath. He told me he got a high when he cheated/stole from business associates and others.

He felt no regrets throughout the time I knew him.

We must remember that as in all criminal activity, no sociopath is the same. Some are much more evil than others. They are very intelligent and usually quite good at fooling everyone. It is almost like there are two different people. My ex told me that he would calculate what a person was like and what was important to them and become that person.

I have no pity on them as there is such a thing as evil, not all wrong done is because one is mentally ill.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I don’t know if it was already mentioned, but what percent of politicians are sociopaths?

That book I mentioned: [discussed this question]

Here is my earlier repeat post:

Anyone interested in this topic should get a copy of:

“The Psychopath Test” by Jon Ronson.

Published in 2011. Imprint is Riverhead Books by Penguin Group.

Goes into a great amount of detail about The Hare Checklist … " The PCL-R"

Also referred to as The Bob Hare Checklist.

Also as the twenty-point Hare PCL-R Checklist.

By Robert Hare.

The list is on pages 97-98 of Ronson’s book.

Another reference is “The Mask of Sanity” by Hervey Cleckley which is a classic published in 1941.

Another reference is “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout from the Harvard Medical School.

More later.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

A favorite tool of psychopaths/ sociopaths … same condition/ different term / no difference … is the use of the double bind:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

Excerpt:

The double bind is often misunderstood to be a simple contradictory situation, where the victim is trapped by two conflicting demands. While it’s true that the core of the double bind is two conflicting demands, the differences lie in how they are imposed on the victim, what the victim’s understanding of the situation is and finally, who (or what) imposes these demands upon the victim. **Unlike the usual no-win situation, the victim has difficulty defining the exact nature of the paradoxical situation in which he or she is.
**
The contradiction may be unexpressed in its immediate context and therefore is invisible to external observers, only becoming evident when a prior communication is considered.

Typically, a demand is imposed upon the victim by someone who they respect (a parent, teacher or doctor), but the demand itself is inherently impossible to fulfill because some broader context forbids it.

For example, when a person in a position of authority imposes two contradictory conditions but there is an unspoken rule that one must never question authority.

Gregory Bateson and his colleagues defined the double bind as follows[2] (paraphrased):

---

And another excerpt:

For a double bind to be effective, the victim must be unable to confront or resolve the conflict between the demand placed by the primary injunction and that of the secondary injunction.

In this sense, the double bind differentiates itself from a simple contradiction to a more inexpressible internal conflict, where the victim really wants to meet the demands of the primary injunction, but fails each time through an inability to address the situation’s incompatibility with the demands of the secondary injunction.

Thus, victims may express feelings of extreme anxiety in such a situation, as they attempt to fulfil the demands of the primary injunction albeit with obvious contradictions in their actions.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Saw this writer on BookTV yesterday … not on the schedule … serendipitous event.

lauriesandell.com/

Her descriptions of the situation created by Bernie Madoff closely follow the sociopath “model”.

Sandell’s presentation was spliced right on after the DeRose segment, so it might reappear there:

booktv.org/Program/13041/Founding+Rivals+Madison+vs+Monroe+The+Bill+of+Rights+and+the+Election+That+Saved+a+Nation.aspx

There is a separate set of listings for Sandell’s presentation:

booktv.org/Program/13007/quotTruth+and+Consequences+Life+Inside+the+Madoff+Familyquot.aspx

You can also watch Sandell’s presentation here:

booktv.org/Watch/13007/Truth+and+Consequences+Life+Inside+the+Madoff+Family.aspx

 

[karbear]

A favorite tool of psychopaths/ sociopaths … same condition/ different term / no difference … is the use of the double bind:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

Excerpt:

The double bind is often misunderstood to be a simple contradictory situation, where the victim is trapped by two conflicting demands. While it’s true that the core of the double bind is two conflicting demands, the differences lie in how they are imposed on the victim, what the victim’s understanding of the situation is and finally, who (or what) imposes these demands upon the victim. **Unlike the usual no-win situation, the victim has difficulty defining the exact nature of the paradoxical situation in which he or she is.
**
The contradiction may be unexpressed in its immediate context and therefore is invisible to external observers, only becoming evident when a prior communication is considered.

Typically, a demand is imposed upon the victim by someone who they respect (a parent, teacher or doctor), but the demand itself is inherently impossible to fulfill because some broader context forbids it.

For example, when a person in a position of authority imposes two contradictory conditions but there is an unspoken rule that one must never question authority.

Gregory Bateson and his colleagues defined the double bind as follows[2] (paraphrased):

---

And another excerpt:

For a double bind to be effective, the victim must be unable to confront or resolve the conflict between the demand placed by the primary injunction and that of the secondary injunction.

In this sense, the double bind differentiates itself from a simple contradiction to a more inexpressible internal conflict, where the victim really wants to meet the demands of the primary injunction, but fails each time through an inability to address the situation’s incompatibility with the demands of the secondary injunction.

Thus, victims may express feelings of extreme anxiety in such a situation, as they attempt to fulfil the demands of the primary injunction albeit with obvious contradictions in their actions.

Wow, thats interesting. The sociopath I knew used that tactic very effectively. Contradicting opinions on different days in different contexts. Contradicting instructions on different days in different contexts. Interesting to note it for what it is, a tactic that requires forethought and carries the intention of harming or stealing from another.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Wow, thats interesting. The sociopath I knew used that tactic very effectively. Contradicting opinions on different days in different contexts. Contradicting instructions on different days in different contexts. Interesting to note it for what it is, a tactic that requires forethought and carries the intention of harming or stealing from another.

Yeah, the amazing thing is that sociopaths do this extremely effective double bind “thing” INSTINCTIVELY. They don’t even have to think about it.

Like a hidden rattlesnake strike … instantly … wham. But without the warning rattles.

 

[larsenl1]

I am wondering why brain wiring could ever excuse doing evil. We know people by their fruits. Its hard to believe that any sort of mental handicap would cause a person to bear bad fruits instead of good in their lives. Maybe they are wired that way, but they know, they have full knowledge that they are choosing x as opposed to y.

I think you should use a lot of restraint with this idea. How much evil? How much culpability?

My (adopted) daughter has Borderline Personality Disorder. It was inflicted upon her by a very sick woman, who probably herself had mental illness. Now my daughter does horrible things and often she is not responsible. She had a history of cutting herself and starving herself. To me that is evil. She is verbally hostile to me and her father. That is evil. She has every intention of getting pregnant with full knowledge that the baby will have birth defects because of the medication she takes (an anti-psychotic) and that is evil. Is she killing 6 million Jews? No. Has she killed her mother and father? No. In fact she has a lot of compassion for animals. But she honestly does not know why she has such a driving need to have a little baby. She even can reason that it is not practical.

She is receiving therapy and if she breaks the law, I expect her to be held accountable. Mental handicap does bear bad fruit. Daily. Constantly. And yet we pray, we love, we forgive.

For you to assume that a person with mental illness is not capable of evil is naive.

 

[larsenl1]

That book I mentioned: [discussed this question]

Here is my earlier repeat post:

Anyone interested in this topic should get a copy of:

“The Psychopath Test” by Jon Ronson.

Published in 2011. Imprint is Riverhead Books by Penguin Group.

Goes into a great amount of detail about The Hare Checklist … " The PCL-R"

Also referred to as The Bob Hare Checklist.

Also as the twenty-point Hare PCL-R Checklist.

By Robert Hare.

The list is on pages 97-98 of Ronson’s book.

Another reference is “The Mask of Sanity” by Hervey Cleckley which is a classic published in 1941.

Another reference is “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout from the Harvard Medical School.

More later.

I will look into reading this book. Another good book to understand how a child can become a psychopath is The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog. It has helped me tremendously when trying to understand my daughter.

 

[karbear]

I think you should use a lot of restraint with this idea. How much evil? How much culpability?

My (adopted) daughter has Borderline Personality Disorder. It was inflicted upon her by a very sick woman, who probably herself had mental illness. Now my daughter does horrible things and often she is not responsible. She had a history of cutting herself and starving herself. To me that is evil. She is verbally hostile to me and her father. That is evil. She has every intention of getting pregnant with full knowledge that the baby will have birth defects because of the medication she takes (an anti-psychotic) and that is evil. Is she killing 6 million Jews? No. Has she killed her mother and father? No. In fact she has a lot of compassion for animals. But she honestly does not know why she has such a driving need to have a little baby. She even can reason that it is not practical.

She is receiving therapy and if she breaks the law, I expect her to be held accountable. Mental handicap does bear bad fruit. Daily. Constantly. And yet we pray, we love, we forgive.

For you to assume that a person with mental illness is not capable of evil is naive.

You daughter sounds like she is suffering tremedously, but she doesn’t sound evil to me. I was not talking about people like your daughter. I was talking about people who have a tremendous ability for reason and are highly functioning that deliberately destroy other people. Maybe I should have clarified that.

 

[chevalier]

From an article I read yesterday (I’m interested in this type of thing), it seems sociopaths basically have a learning disability when it comes to emotional things. This is why the lack of empathy and anti-social behaviours, for example (BTW not every every person with the anti-social disorder is a psychopath). Also, they seem to have a dysfunction that prevents them from feeling fear properly, hence the self-destructive behaviours (e.g. they won’t withdraw from the game after losing much money). They actually might be ill people, even though they don’t get the insanity defence. They don’t have delusions, they don’t hear voices, they don’t suffer from compulsions. But they do have a defect.

My (adopted) daughter has Borderline Personality Disorder

Borderline is not what people typically understand as psychopathy (and I have a family member diagnosed with this disorder), although there is no single definition of psychopathy. I have, for example, read a book by a somewhat post-WW2 professor of psychiatry, who considered psychopathies (plural) to be stronger versions of personality disorders (any personality disorders). The distinction was quantitative, not qualitative. By that definition, even a patient with an extreme case of anakastic (OCD) or hysterical or psychasthenic personality (the last one without any problems with empathy, by the way, nor in the least anti-social) would be a psychopath.

Typically, when people mention a psychopath, they mean what wiki says about it, especially in the beginning. (Which is nothing like my dear family member with BPD.)

Wow, thats interesting. The sociopath I knew used that tactic very effectively. Contradicting opinions on different days in different contexts. Contradicting instructions on different days in different contexts. Interesting to note it for what it is, a tactic that requires forethought and carries the intention of harming or stealing from another.

Interesting. Please note the way many people place impossible demands on their spouses or children or other people so that no matter which choice you make, it will be a bad one. Like: don’t hit back if you’re attacked (parent or teacher to a child), that’s wrong, tell the teacher (or parent) instead. But when the child does go and tell, then there’s resentment against whistleblowing, sometimes even open criticism, and sometimes unwillingness to investigate the matter.

Double-bind also is, I think, what the Pharisees tried on Our Lord with the tax question.

 

[chevalier]

Also, not sure if this hasn’t been mentioned already, but psychopaths are great at contradicting themselves (they don’t see it; I wonder if they are capable of learning that this is their weakness and somehow preventing it by actively trying), as are people who have the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (an NPD case has some things in common with a psychopath). A bit less than two years ago I was very much taken with a lady who possibly had some tendencies towards NPD or some other disorder with similar traits (I wouldn’t presume to home-brew-with-doctor-diagnose anybody but I wasn’t alone in the opinion and the other two people were more knowledgeable about personality issues than I). She was capable of changing her position on a discussed issue in mid-sentence. When she went on some of the tricks, she was downright scary and at times stopped me cold. I could read her and resist being played but I’ve had a ton of preparation compared to the average person (I’ve been a lawyer, am a professional linguist with a better than average sense of language even for a professional, have read about body language, communication psychology and other such things for many years now… most people don’t have these benefits) and interaction with her still cost me very, very much emotionally, even months after (possibly still does).

 

[larsenl1]

You daughter sounds like she is suffering tremedously, but she doesn’t sound evil to me. I was not talking about people like your daughter. I was talking about people who have a tremendous ability for reason and are highly functioning that deliberately destroy other people. Maybe I should have clarified that.

I agree, she is not evil but I have seen her overcome by evil and some of her behaviors have evil at the root.

Thank you for your kind response. God Bless.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I agree, she is not evil but I have seen her overcome by evil and some of her behaviors have evil at the root.

Thank you for your kind response. God Bless.

Reminding myself to pray for you and your daughter.

 

[John21652]

There is some degree of “sociopathy” in each one of us, in that we do not always realize how our actions could be hurting someone. In the case of sociopaths, the degree to which this occurs is great (or so it seems). But this does not necessarily excuse their behaviour. “He who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a** light **beating. (Luke 12:48)”, but he shall receive a beating nevertheless.

The Bible is clear that some people can reject their conscience (1 Tim 1:19), and some people have their conscience seared (1 Tim 4:2). It seems to me that the latter occurs because of the former, because Jesus said, “To him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away” (Mark 4:25).

I do not know whether these people are the way they are through no fault of their own, or whether they have played some role to be in the state that they are in. Nevertheless, it is almost certain that they will realize that others do not find their behaviour acceptable and this should make them think as to why it is so.

The Catechism says that

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” (CCC 600)

We therefore have to believe that God gives each person sufficient grace to be saved, even the sociopath, after all he desires every one to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). The sociopath has to respond to the grace God gives him and so do we.

I see only two reasons why a person can be a sociopath -

1. Because he rejected his conscience and therefore the little that he had was taken away from him and therefore he became worse.
2. Because God wants to make his works visible in his life by curing him, just as he worked in the life of the man who was born blind through no fault of his own (John 9:3).

What a lovely post!

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There are three things I mention all the time as being “antidotes” for all sorts of unfortunate “behavior”.

1. Daily Rosary
2. Daily Mass
3. Frequent visits to the Blessed Sacrament, especially at a Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration chapel.

There is no way you can know the hugely positive impact you have on others, even if no one sees you doing it.

[When I was working, I used to quietly leave the building at lunch time and go to noon Mass. Never said a word to anyone. If asked, I just said I was going for a walk. I was criticized for not meeting up with my workmates for lunch each day … (yeah, well, I didn’t need 9 hours of interaction with them each day; 8 hours was quite enough) … and one day, a very attractive woman came up and whispered in my ear: “I know where you disappear to at lunch time every day.” So, it was a big deal. And people noticed. It created at worst a good example and at best maybe even a conversion or two.]

[One day, as I was getting ready to head out to Mass, I received two emails and a phone call … people wanted me to have the priest pray for some dying people at Mass. So people knew. So I dutifully wrote down the names and visited the priest in the sacristy before Mass. I knew he already had a designated Mass intention, and I interrupted his ritual prayers before Mass in the sacristy, but I gave him the piece of paper and he took it and touched it just before the Consecration and he prayed aloud for “the grace of a happy death”. Caused people to wonder and question. No idea. God works in mysterious ways.]

You just never know.

[St. Dismas was the first saint of the Christian Church. The “good thief”. And he was a sociopath.]

 

[I_love_rocks]

There are three things I mention all the time as being “antidotes” for all sorts of unfortunate “behavior”.

1. Daily Rosary
2. Daily Mass
3. Frequent visits to the Blessed Sacrament, especially at a Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration chapel.

There is no way you can know the hugely positive impact you have on others, even if no one sees you doing it.

[When I was working, I used to quietly leave the building at lunch time and go to noon Mass. Never said a word to anyone. If asked, I just said I was going for a walk. I was criticized for not meeting up with my workmates for lunch each day … (yeah, well, I didn’t need 9 hours of interaction with them each day; 8 hours was quite enough) … and one day, a very attractive woman came up and whispered in my ear: “I know where you disappear to at lunch time every day.” So, it was a big deal. And people noticed. It created at worst a good example and at best maybe even a conversion or two.]

[One day, as I was getting ready to head out to Mass, I received two emails and a phone call … people wanted me to have the priest pray for some dying people at Mass. So people knew. So I dutifully wrote down the names and visited the priest in the sacristy before Mass. I knew he already had a designated Mass intention, and I interrupted his ritual prayers before Mass in the sacristy, but I gave him the piece of paper and he took it and touched it just before the Consecration and he prayed aloud for “the grace of a happy death”. Caused people to wonder and question. No idea. God works in mysterious ways.]

You just never know.

[St. Dismas was the first saint of the Christian Church. The “good thief”. And he was a sociopath.]

Monte, I agree with your asessment that the effects of the Mass, the rosaries, and private adoration cannot be measured. Their effects are in God’s hands and He is divine. But I’m not so sure that St. Dismas was a sociopath. He had remorse. Sociopaths are not capable of remorse. And lets not forget, he wasn’t up there being crucified with Jesus because he went on a sereial killing murder spree. He stole something. I stole a nailpolish when I was a kid. They didn’t crucify me for that. I think the Romans didn’t care if the punishment fit the crime. They just enjoyed the punishment so much that it fit every crime. I would tend more towards the Romans in charge of the torture were probably sociopaths.