How are we to understand Sociopaths?

[michellelemon]

I am so sorry for anyone affected by the actions of a psychopath, as I was. And I am more grateful than you can imagine that I was delivered from it! Thank you, my Dear Lord!

As to the question about whether they are redeemable and whether prayer for them is worthwhile - I feel the jury is still out. I have read many analyses by the psychological experts, who can never explain it beyond possible childhood trauma - and always sidestep the possible spiritual aspect which is so obvious to me. In my personal experience, this person had every opportunity to embrace Christ - but chose, when given the opportunity, to try to rise above Him, even - and where does one go from there, but straight to the devil? And once one has made that choice and aligned themself…? Perhaps I was too close to it and everything in me is repelled and horrified by it after so much unwitting prayer and compassion…

 

[benidict]

I’m in a very friendly debate on Sociopathy. I believe Sociopathy is formed by abuse, possibly pre-disposed to illness by mental frailty? Not sure… My husband believes people are born like that - like some other mental illnesses. I can’t accept that because ‘God doesn’t make junk’ and the Sociopath is incapable of remorse. Thererore, from conception, they would be incapable of remorse to God for any sin they are guilty of throughout their life including original sin. Without ever being remorseful, they couldn’t be forgiven. Would God actually create someone like that?? I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. I guess I just don’t understand the Catholic view… any help would be greatly appreciated.

We know there are physical birth defects. No God does not make junk. But could not this mental issue be some kind of birth defect? You do pose an interesting question. Peace

 

[Rock_Happy]

We know there are physical birth defects. No God does not make junk. But could not this mental issue be some kind of birth defect? You do pose an interesting question. Peace

It sounds like this gets into the issue of “full knowledge” of a sin. There are other mental and personality disorders which would fall into this class. How about narcissism, or OCD? There are a number of compulsive disorders, including some addictions in which I think that full knowledge of sin is clouded.

 

[benidict]

It sounds like this gets into the issue of “full knowledge” of a sin. There are other mental and personality disorders which would fall into this class. How about narcissism, or OCD? There are a number of compulsive disorders, including some addictions in which I think that full knowledge of sin is clouded.

I would agree. I used to work in a psych hospital. We had a patient, that enjoyed killing people. That was his thing. He felt no guilt over it what so ever, and did not believe what he did was wrong. How do we approach such a disorder? Other than the cuff and belt that is.

 

[Della]

What we are really discussing here is culpability for sin. As I understand it, the Church maintains that if a person is mentally incapacitated he cannot be guilty of sin since he cannot truly grasp what constitutes a sin, especially a mortal sin. This understanding has been incorporated into our justice system since it was formed by Catholic European culture.

Intelligence doesn’t really come into it, although the mentally handicapped certainly fall under this category, as well. A person can be intelligent but not be able to grasp how his actions affect others. Thus, he has a disorder. God understands this. His justice is fulfilled in his mercy in such cases. It is we who have to adjust our thinking to match God’s–not that anyone means to be unfair or judgmental. That’s not my point. What I mean is that we too have to see them as incapacitated and not give them the same responsibilities nor have the same expectations we have of normal people. It is sheer futility to try to remake anyone over to match our hopes. To try to do it with someone with with APD inevitably leads to frustration and heartache. It’s just too bad some can be such charming stinkers or even worse. It casts a bad light on everyone so afflicted.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I have had “dealings” with people who are sociopaths and psychopaths.

On one occasion, I was sitting in exactly the right place and the right time … and at the point of maximum damage that they created … their eyes lit up and sparkled.

Not a nice thing to say, but they derive pleasure from what they do and from what they say.

One of them [who was confined to a chair and unable to walk] was making life a living hell for a relative with demands that went on about every ten seconds … and that relative quietly went to another room. The sociopath continued the verbal abuse until they realized that the person had left the room. So, the sociopath forgot that I was quietly observing from another room, and just got up with no effort at all and went over to the fridge and got the can of soda.

Later on that particular sociopath “put a curse of death” on me … a very carefully worded one … exquisitely crafted … no joke. A lot of negativity that I need to live with … and be careful about.

Or to actually quote one of them, " I don’t see why I should have to be nice to people."

Their motto. Their words.

They will play their head games on you until you literally die. And then they will just search for another butterfly to pull the wings off of. They don’t care about you at all. You are kleenex.

I’m sure there are some high scorers, but the record I have seen so far by one person is three kills … three perfect crimes. No evidence. No charges. Got away with murder.

They DO seem to be terrified of any reminder of their mortality and eventual death. They won’t see a priest to confess or for extreme unction/ last rites. They figure they will escape death … somehow.

The minute you get the idea that someone is playing you … instantly and permanently separate yourself from them.

All of the psychology books suggest that the only workable strategy is to “unplug”.

 

[Pieman333272]

We know there are physical birth defects. No God does not make junk. But could not this mental issue be some kind of birth defect? You do pose an interesting question. Peace

Remember that even if it is a birth defect, God did not design the defect - the faulty genes or injury during pregnancy did.

 

[Della]

Remember that even if it is a birth defect, God did not design the defect - the faulty genes or injury during pregnancy did.

And that is one of the results of man’s fall from grace in Adam. It’s part of the price we all pay with sin in the world and our fallen natures. There are physical consequences to sin–not personal ones, as such, but as a race we all bear the marks of it in one way or the other.

 

[BernadetteM]

It seems that from many comments made, that these sociopaths are mentally ill and not capable of knowing what they have done is wrong. Since I lived with one, although he was not a murderer, he still destroyed many lives and told me he got a high from his actions.

Logically then there is no really evil in the world, everyone who commits crimes are just mentally ill.

I do believe in evil and that these people have chosen the path of Satan to follow by their own free will.

There are legitimate mental illnesses that can be of a genetic nature, however, I don’t believe that sociopaths are predisposed to that nature. Whether or not their environment plays a part in forming some people to have no regard for others, I don’t know.

As Christians we should recognize that evil exists and will always exist. The evil that socipaths do becomes an addiction to them, as a drug would do.

I recall my husband telling me he liked to live on the “dark side”, he knew the light and admitted that while we were together he lived more in the light, but still committed acts that were harmful to family, friends and business associates.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Monte_RCMS]

It seems that from many comments made, that these sociopaths are mentally ill and not capable of knowing what they have done is wrong. Since I lived with one, although he was not a murderer, he still destroyed many lives and told me he got a high from his actions.

Logically then there is no really evil in the world, everyone who commits crimes are just mentally ill.

I do believe in evil and that these people have chosen the path of Satan to follow by their own free will.

There are legitimate mental illnesses that can be of a genetic nature, however, I don’t believe that sociopaths are predisposed to that nature. Whether or not their environment plays a part in forming some people to have no regard for others, I don’t know.

As Christians we should recognize that evil exists and will always exist. The evil that socipaths do becomes an addiction to them, as a drug would do.

I recall my husband telling me he liked to live on the “dark side”, he knew the light and admitted that while we were together he lived more in the light, but still committed acts that were harmful to family, friends and business associates.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

My experience is that these sociopaths know that what they are doing is “disruptive” to others … destructive … damaging. And they don’t care about the death and destruction. They don’t regret it for a minute. It doesn’t matter. They get pleasure from it.

They know it’s wrong and they do it deliberately. They go OUT OF THEIR WAY to cause misery for others.

It is such a good time.

They start with distortions and slight exaggerations. Then they graduate to outright lies. It doesn’t matter. Whatever works to give them that high.

I think they are evil … NOT mentally ill. They have the option and they choose deliberately to do bad things to other people.

 

[Holly3278]

Perhaps they are mentally ill? That is my opinion.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Perhaps they are mentally ill? That is my opinion.

Obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors are things that MIGHT indicate mental illness … things that are out of control. And the people who do those things get no pleasure from them. They do those things despite the misery to themselves. They feel powerless to stop.

But a sociopath? Gets pleasure and knows it’s wrong. Evil.

“For fun” look up Munchausen Syndrome. There are all kinds of different varieties. But basically, a parent who hurts a child because the parent’s highest value is gaining the sympathy of others.

 

[BernadetteM]

My experience is that these sociopaths know that what they are doing is “disruptive” to others … destructive … damaging. And they don’t care about the death and destruction. They don’t regret it for a minute. It doesn’t matter. They get pleasure from it.

They know it’s wrong and they do it deliberately. They go OUT OF THEIR WAY to cause misery for others.

It is such a good time.

They start with distortions and slight exaggerations. Then they graduate to outright lies. It doesn’t matter. Whatever works to give them that high.

I think they are evil … NOT mentally ill. They have the option and they choose deliberately to do bad things to other people.

You are exactly on target. When our life together was over (long story of what he did to me and others) he came right out and told me if you are going to lie you better remember the lie. He also planned everything he was going to do and set me up for events that would come because of his actions. Everything he did to others was for his own benefit and pleasure. Besides the hurt, pain and devastation he caused me, one of my close friends believed that I knew what he was doing when he stole expensive tools from the side business he and her husband had. Of course she is no longer a friend.

I can’t go into detail here, however he did some horrible things to his own flesh and blood, besides everyone else in his life.

God Bless

 

[Rock_Happy]

Remember that even if it is a birth defect, God did not design the defect - the faulty genes or injury during pregnancy did.

Today’s defect might be tomorrows normalcy. However, there is speculation in genetic science that the evolution of the human species has stopped because we don’t have enough isolation of population groups for natural selection to occur, and we also interfere with natural selection in many ways, including medical treatment.

 

[Rock_Happy]

You are exactly on target. When our life together was over (long story of what he did to me and others) he came right out and told me if you are going to lie you better remember the lie. He also planned everything he was going to do and set me up for events that would come because of his actions. Everything he did to others was for his own benefit and pleasure. Besides the hurt, pain and devastation he caused me, one of my close friends believed that I knew what he was doing when he stole expensive tools from the side business he and her husband had. Of course she is no longer a friend.

I can’t go into detail here, however he did some horrible things to his own flesh and blood, besides everyone else in his life.

God Bless

So, you would say that there is no cognitive defect? That they are as aware of the moral implications of their actions as your or me? Does evil require cognitive awareness of the moral implications, or not?

 

[valentino]

I’m sorry if I disagree with anyone who thinks sociopaths inherit their criminal behavior from some distant relative but I just don’t buy it.i don’t care what these genes say to scientists no one can convince me that a murderer has a gene which predicts his behavior and it is inevitable and can’t be changed.There may be genes which influence bad behavior or may be prepossessed to deviant behavior but there has to be some culpability on the part of the law breaker.Son of Sam said the devil was talking to him through a dog to kill people.He was mentally ill but he still knew it was wrong and didn’t seek any help.He knew he could have found people who would have listened to him and would have been referred to a doctor who would have prescribed medicine to help calm his passion to kill.

 

[michellelemon]

In my experience, the psychopath did display sings of OCD - weird stuff - for example, I keep a very clean home, but he would make remarks of disgust to me about how there could be any accumulation of toothpaste on the end of the tube - and obsessively insist on turning off ceiling fans, etc. As much as he tried to always personify a , no pun intended, “devil may care” attitude, this stuff betrayed that. On one occasion, he was so obnoxious that he finally got to a friend - a super nice guy who everyone admires - to the point that the guy grabbed him by the throat and said enough is enough. This was one of the only times I felt he was showing some humility and “confided” in me for advice after the incident - but I realize now that he was merely concerned that his facade may be breaking and his true self was being seen by the guy - and he wanted my affirmation for continued approval. (This friend was pretty much the only one of his friends who had stood up for me when he felt the psychopath was being uncool toward me, by the way.) Interesting how exposure to someone like that separates “the men from the boys”, as it were (on a larger level, those with spiritual substance and a natural repulsion to that which is just not good.) He seems to have them all hoodwinked to this day. I suppose his attempt at having a relationship with me was a mix of an attempt to corrupt the ultimate goal - a girl with a strong faith, surrounded by prayerful family and friends, and the affirmation his association with and acceptance by someone like me could bring him in the community. I do wonder what his “friends” think now that I have distanced myself from him for so long, although, I am sure he has them all convinced that I was the crazy one.

In the end, I have no doubt that his was a concious choice at some point to sell his soul to the devil. We have free will and everyone is created with a soul inclined to the good - and to completely go against that is a willful choice and submersion in evil. The devil himself started out as an angel, we must remember…

 

[hxcCatholic413]

I’m in a very friendly debate on Sociopathy. I believe Sociopathy is formed by abuse, possibly pre-disposed to illness by mental frailty? Not sure… My husband believes people are born like that - like some other mental illnesses. I can’t accept that because ‘God doesn’t make junk’ and the Sociopath is incapable of remorse. Thererore, from conception, they would be incapable of remorse to God for any sin they are guilty of throughout their life including original sin. Without ever being remorseful, they couldn’t be forgiven. Would God actually create someone like that?? I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. I guess I just don’t understand the Catholic view… any help would be greatly appreciated.

the difference between a sociopath committing evils is God…whether or not they believe in God/has the Holy Spirit inspired them

 

[BernadetteM]

So, you would say that there is no cognitive defect? That they are as aware of the moral implications of their actions as your or me? Does evil require cognitive awareness of the moral implications, or not?

I can only speak from personal experience and my husband knew perfectly well the consequences of his behavior. He knew there was a God and supposedly taught Sunday School at a Lutheran church.

People make choices and there are plenty of non believers who don’t believe in Hell and also some Christian denominations that if you accept Jesus you will be saved no matter what you do.

I can only speak of what it was like living with a sociopath and his behavior. As I said he knew that one can live in the light (with Christ) but preferred to live in the dark.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Monte_RCMS]

In my experience, the psychopath did display sings of OCD - weird stuff - for example, I keep a very clean home, but he would make remarks of disgust to me about how there could be any accumulation of toothpaste on the end of the tube - and obsessively insist on turning off ceiling fans, etc. As much as he tried to always personify a , no pun intended, “devil may care” attitude, this stuff betrayed that. On one occasion, he was so obnoxious that he finally got to a friend - a super nice guy who everyone admires - to the point that the guy grabbed him by the throat and said enough is enough. This was one of the only times I felt he was showing some humility and “confided” in me for advice after the incident - but I realize now that he was merely concerned that his facade may be breaking and his true self was being seen by the guy - and he wanted my affirmation for continued approval. (This friend was pretty much the only one of his friends who had stood up for me when he felt the psychopath was being uncool toward me, by the way.) Interesting how exposure to someone like that separates “the men from the boys”, as it were (on a larger level, those with spiritual substance and a natural repulsion to that which is just not good.) He seems to have them all hoodwinked to this day. I suppose his attempt at having a relationship with me was a mix of an attempt to corrupt the ultimate goal - a girl with a strong faith, surrounded by prayerful family and friends, and the affirmation his association with and acceptance by someone like me could bring him in the community. I do wonder what his “friends” think now that I have distanced myself from him for so long, although, I am sure he has them all convinced that I was the crazy one.

In the end, I have no doubt that his was a concious choice at some point to sell his soul to the devil. We have free will and everyone is created with a soul inclined to the good - and to completely go against that is a willful choice and submersion in evil. The devil himself started out as an angel, we must remember…

The OCD behavior is a kind of selection test.

If you accept it or go along with it, then he’s got you hooked.

And you become his slave forever.

If someone recognizes the OCD behavior as manipulative and walks away … then there is not any leverage for the sociopath to use against you. The sociopath needs a teeny tiny crack to get his fingernail into. But if someone recognizes it as what is often called “enabling” … and walks away … then the sociopath has to look elsewhere for a victim.

Unhappily, there are plenty of good-natured people around to accommodate the sociopath.

Walk away at the first sign of “badness” or manipulative behavior.

You can call it “tough love” … you can call it refusal to be manipulated.

Lots of names.

But no one has the right to use someone else as an emotional punching bag … and no one should feel that he or she has the responsibility to be used as a punching bag.

If someone is really “up against it”, then they can use God as a punching bag. And God is the most expert psychotherapist of all and if the “patient” or “client” is sincere, then God will provide the resources for recovery. No joke.