How Aunthentic?! need some help again

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When Christians were into the verge of growing, Satan’s forces started to move. Persecutions, under Satan’s command, hit the early believers in Christ. But instead of destroying them, they grew in numbers. The Force was ruling over Rome. Using the Pagan Roman Caesars to slaughter the followers of Christ.
The time was getting close for Satan then to give the world his own version of the “Christian” church. And paganism was about to get a new face.
When the Emperor of Rome died, two men claimed the throne: Constantine, and the other Roman General named Maxentius.
In 312 A.D., Constantine’s army faced his enemy, Maxentius, who stood between him and the Roman Empire. It was during this battle when he “apparently” saw a sign of the cross in the heavens saying, “In this sign Conquer.” Having backed up by “The Force,” he won the battle…and owned Rome. A few years after, he “Christianized” Rome

As a result of this battle, Constantine claimed that his conversion to Christianity had taken place. He publicly issued his edict of toleration in 313 AD, and supposedly stopped the persecutions against the Christians and brought peace. His job, under the direction of Satan, was to merge paganism in the perverted form of Christianity, which he did, and turned it into ROMAN CATHOLICISM.
Code: 
 Testified records from the underground vaults of the inner Vatican about the truth about Constantine and his family. Constantinus Maximus was NOT really “Christianized” for he still worshipped the sun god “Sol” (Roman name for Nimrod) even until his death in 337 AD. He also had been ordering the killing of the true believers who are hiding in the mountains to survive, and to protect the word of God. And as a claim aside Peter, Constantine was the FIRST pope. Yet the seducing spirits, just like every pope that followed him, controlled him.

   In short, he was the second coming of NIMROD.
Even after his “Conversion,” facts testifying that he wasn’t really saved were his devious family affairs from his brother-in-law, to his wives and to his sons which most, resulted into murders. Some of political and personal reasons.

F.Y.I.
• ANOTHER POINT OF “CHRISTIANIZED” CONTRIBUTION WAS CONSTANTINE’S MOTHER HELENA, WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE FOUND THE REAL CROSS WHERE CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED!!!
• A POPES TITLE: SUMO MAXIMUS PONTIFIX
• AFTER HIS RETIREMENT AS THE “FIRST POPE,” HE GAVE THE BISHOP OF ROME HIS TITLE AND MOVED TO BYZANTIUM, TURKEY IN 330 AD. THEN, HE GAVE IT A FACE LIFT AND RENAMED THE PLACE “CONSTANTINOPLE.” AMIDST THE RETIREMENT, HE REMAINED LOYAL TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, FULFILLING THE PROPHECY OF REVELATION 17:9

This was a post from a portestant…I was telling him that the “not until Constantine” issue is not authentic and was used by anti-Catholics…

Honestly, I haven’t tried asking our parish priest…or any clergy, it has been a great oppurtunity that I learn some points on CAF…in defending Mother Church…

once again, I need some good advise…you could check it here:

forum.pba.ph/index.php?topic=169940.0#new

thanks…and May the Holy Spirit be with us always!
 
Wow what a warped version of pseudo-history he has concocted!

There’s not much fact at all mixed in with that fiction!
 
Personally, I don’t respond to the rantings of crazy people because they do not listen to you no matter what proof you put forward. People like this live in a delusion and do not want to come out of it.
 
^its a mere fiction…but isn’t it worth refuting? from both corners of the post…

like who made this fiction? why?

the guy used historical persons…whew! i now regret my cutting of classes during my History class before 😉
 
There is a simple answer to the “paganism invaded Christianity” fable. Simply ask why the same Christians who remained faithful even unto horrible deaths, suddenly and meekly allowed their faith to be corrupted by paganism. Why did such pillars of Christian strength turn into lumps of mud who were either too ignorant or too afraid to defend the very faith that they had been dying for just a few years earlier.

Once you ask that question, the fable falls apart.
 
“Testified records from the underground vaults of the inner Vatican”

Proof Please, Look for that which can not be verified by well known historians. Basically, when one makes up history they need to create an source that can not be verified. The Divinci Code appeals to a document that no one has. Your detracter refers to documents held by the Vatican which is an non-win argument. If you say there is no such documents, then the Vatican is covering them up. If such documents do exist, but don’t say what he wants them to say, then the Vatican changed them. Since, he claims that the documents exist. It is up to him to prove that they do exist, and that they do in fact say what he says they say. All he is going to be able to come up with is “hear say”, so and so saw them. Ah, why would the Vatican allow so and so to read secret documents?
If you push him on the documents, he will not be able to produce them, and if he does produce a “copy” then he can not prove that the copy is genuine. How does he know if someone is just making this all up?

Point him to a good protestant history like Philip Schaff’s History of the Christian Church ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm

When reading BULL history like that, pretend you are a three year old and ask questions like why, who, what, where, when, proof, How do you know those documents exist? Why did not the Church simply destory those documents way back when? Who wrote those documents in the first place and what was their purpose for doing so? Where are those documents now? What language are those documents in? How do you know they are translated correctly? How come other historians don’t know about those documents? How do you know that the church did not corrupt the Bible? After all, the same people who “founded” the catholic church was the one that made copies of your bible. They could have burned all the old copies and changed them to fit their purposes.
 
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janryboy:
A POPES TITLE: SUMO MAXIMUS PONTIFIX
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The main features of Roman Catholicism predate Constantine by many years.

For instance, more than a hundred years before Constantine, St. Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, in A.D. 189, wrote that “it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church [the Church of Rome], on account of its preeminent authority.” (Against Heresies, book 3, chap. 3.) A few years later, Tertullian, in A.D. 220, applied the title ‘Pontifex Maximus’ to Callistus I, bishop of Rome, referring to him as “[t]he Pontifix Maximus—that is, the bishop of bishops.” (On Modesty, chap. 1.)
 
yess!!!

thanks for the info guys…

the guy was a protestant, yet he was speaking of Constantine…not knowing his denomination existed since 1500’s…funny!
 
Constantines reputation as the “first Christian Emperor” has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day, although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith. This debate stems from his continued support for pagan deities and the fact that he was baptized very close to his death

Eusebius reports that Constantine was baptized only shortly before his death in 337. With this, he followed one custom at the time which postponed baptism till old age or death.

Popular legend holds that Constantine I was Christian; however, he never publicly recanted his position as Pontifex Maximus, and the only alleged occurrence of Constantine I converting was on his deathbed (as reported by later Church Fathers), which is impossible to verify. His continued belief in Paganism is revealed by the laws he passed. For example, Constantine issued laws confirming the rights of flamens, priests and duumvirs. Although Constantine passed legislation against magic and private divination, this was driven out of a fear that others might gain power through those means, as he himself had achieved power through the sound advice of Pagan soothsayers and this convinced him of the perspicacity of Pagan prophecy. His belief in Pagan divination is confirmed by legislation calling for the consultation of augurs after an amphitheater had been struck by lightning in the year 320. Constantine explicitly allowed public divination as well as public Pagan practices to continue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I#_note-3
 
kaycee said:
Constantines reputation as the “first Christian Emperor” has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day, although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith. This debate stems from his continued support for pagan deities and the fact that he was baptized very close to his death
Click to expand...
Eusebius reports that Constantine was baptized only shortly before his death in 337. With this, he followed one custom at the time which postponed baptism till old age or death.
Which was the common Christian practice of the day since the understanding of aural confession and absolution for sins committed after baptism hadn’t developed yet. A great many of the early church waited to be baptized in order to wash away their sins prior to death and so enter heaven.
Popular legend holds that Constantine I was Christian; however, he never publicly recanted his position as Pontifex Maximus, and the only alleged occurrence of Constantine I converting was on his deathbed (as reported by later Church Fathers), which is impossible to verify.
Click to expand...
This is actually irrelevent and ludicrous since one would have to be a baptized Christian in order to hold the office of Pope. :whacky:
His continued belief in Paganism is revealed by the laws he passed. For example, Constantine issued laws confirming the rights of flamens, priests and duumvirs. Although Constantine passed legislation against magic and private divination, this was driven out of a fear that others might gain power through those means, as he himself had achieved power through the sound advice of Pagan soothsayers and this convinced him of the perspicacity of Pagan prophecy. His belief in Pagan divination is confirmed by legislation calling for the consultation of augurs after an amphitheater had been struck by lightning in the year 320. Constantine explicitly allowed public divination as well as public Pagan practices to continue.
Click to expand...
No one seems to consider that this was a huge step towards democratic freedoms that had not existed until this time.

Our own country today has similar laws that allow freedom of religion. Does that make them immoral and suspect as well? Of course not! It’s simply good government, yet these people, (who enjoy said freedoms today and excercise them by using the freedom of speech to) offer a revisionist version of history in an effort to impugn the Catholic Church would likely not appreciate it if there was a rescinding of all the laws that are based upon Constantine’s Edict of Tolerance.

Moreover, if the church was paganized by Constantine then why did the Empreor Julian persecute the church just 48 years later because it wasn’t pagan?

This is essentially bunk.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
kaycee said:
Constantines reputation as the “first Christian Emperor” has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day, although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith. This debate stems from his continued support for pagan deities and the fact that he was baptized very close to his death

Eusebius reports that Constantine was baptized only shortly before his death in 337. With this, he followed one custom at the time which postponed baptism till old age or death.

Popular legend holds that Constantine I was Christian; however, he never publicly recanted his position as Pontifex Maximus, and the only alleged occurrence of Constantine I converting was on his deathbed (as reported by later Church Fathers), which is impossible to verify. His continued belief in Paganism is revealed by the laws he passed. For example, Constantine issued laws confirming the rights of flamens, priests and duumvirs. Although Constantine passed legislation against magic and private divination, this was driven out of a fear that others might gain power through those means, as he himself had achieved power through the sound advice of Pagan soothsayers and this convinced him of the perspicacity of Pagan prophecy. His belief in Pagan divination is confirmed by legislation calling for the consultation of augurs after an amphitheater had been struck by lightning in the year 320. Constantine explicitly allowed public divination as well as public Pagan practices to continue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I#_note-3
Click to expand...
its hard for me to believe in wikipedia…
 
kaycee said:
Constantines reputation as the “first Christian Emperor” has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day, although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith. This debate stems from his continued support for pagan deities and the fact that he was baptized very close to his death

Eusebius reports that Constantine was baptized only shortly before his death in 337. With this, he followed one custom at the time which postponed baptism till old age or death.

Popular legend holds that Constantine I was Christian; however, he never publicly recanted his position as Pontifex Maximus, and the only alleged occurrence of Constantine I converting was on his deathbed (as reported by later Church Fathers), which is impossible to verify. His continued belief in Paganism is revealed by the laws he passed. For example, Constantine issued laws confirming the rights of flamens, priests and duumvirs. Although Constantine passed legislation against magic and private divination, this was driven out of a fear that others might gain power through those means, as he himself had achieved power through the sound advice of Pagan soothsayers and this convinced him of the perspicacity of Pagan prophecy. His belief in Pagan divination is confirmed by legislation calling for the consultation of augurs after an amphitheater had been struck by lightning in the year 320. Constantine explicitly allowed public divination as well as public Pagan practices to continue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I#_note-3
Click to expand...
its hard for me to believe in wikipedia…
 
janryboy said:
Having backed up by “The Force,” he won the battle…and owned Rome. A few years after, he “Christianized” Rome
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Not really. Rome remained largely pagan (or at least the aristocracy did) for the rest of the century–paganism was still pretty strong among the elites at the time of the sack of Rome in 410. The Altar of Victory (a symbol of the protection of Rome by the pagan gods) wasn’t removed until the late 4th century and the removal caused a huge fuss.
Actually Constantinus Maximus was NOT really “Christianized” for he still worshipped the sun god “Sol”
Click to expand...
It’s certainly true that Constantine played a double game throughout his life, and may have seen no meaningful distinction between the Christian God and the Sun God.
(Roman name for Nimrod)
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That’s just silly. You should demand credible sources for this. The whole “Nimrod” business probably comes from the fevered imagination of a 19th-century writer named Alexander Hislop.
even until his death in 337 AD.
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He was only baptized on his deathbed, probably because he had too much dirty work to do and also because he wasn’t willing to alienate pagans entirely. Last-minute baptism was a common practice because of the fear that if you sinned after baptism you could not be forgiven. You should suggest to your friend that this is actually the main reason many early Christians didn’t baptize their children in infancy. In other words, Baptists are following in the example of Constantine and Constantinian Christianity. . . .
He also had been ordering the killing of the true believers who are hiding in the mountains to survive, and to protect the word of God.
Click to expand...
I think he’s talking about the Donatists, who were a group in North Africa who refused to follow a bishop whom they thought had compromised the faith during persecution. It’s true that Constantine sent in troops to try to force the Donatists to abandon their schism (since the maintenance of Christian unity was central to his political agenda of making Christianity the new ideology of the Roman Empire). I know that some Donatists were killed, but I’m not sure if this happened in Constantine’s reign or later. It should also be pointed out that the Donatists themselves were linked with violence (though again I’m not sure if this happened this early)–there were a group of bandits called “Circumcellions” who allegedly identified themselves with the Donatist church, and what I’ve read of Donatist martyr accounts certainly gives me the impression that they had no problem with the use of violence to defend their beliefs and resist the Empire.
And as a claim aside Peter, Constantine was the FIRST pope.
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That’s a weird (but common) claim. It’s true that Constantine held the traditional Roman title of “Pontifex Maximus,” which is what they are talking about. Obviously he was not a Pope in the sense of a successor of St. Peter in the See of Rome!
Code: 
   In short, he was the second coming of NIMROD.
Click to expand...
A figure about whom nothing whatever is known except for a cryptic reference in Genesis–this makes him a perfect subject for fundamentalist fantasy. (I think the Genesis reference is probably talking about Sargon of Akkad or one of his successors, but that’s just speculation too.)
Even after his “Conversion,” facts testifying that he wasn’t really saved were his devious family affairs from his brother-in-law, to his wives and to his sons which most, resulted into murders.
Click to expand...
Constantine did indeed do some nasty stuff.
• A POPES TITLE: SUMO MAXIMUS PONTIFIX
Click to expand...
The Latin is garbled, but it’s true that the Popes eventually took the title of “Pontifex Maximus.” I don’t know if they’re right in saying that this happened in Constantine’s time, or if in fact it happened later.
• AFTER HIS RETIREMENT AS THE “FIRST POPE,”
Click to expand...
He never “retired.”

I suggest that you brush up on your church history. Try Henry Chadwick’s The Early Church. Chadwick is an Anglican and thus should be a relatively neutral authority to appeal to when arguing with fundamentalists (good luck with that, though–they probably will just dismiss Anglicanism as an offshoot of Catholicism, which is how Baptists got started in the first place!). W. H. C. Frend is also good, and has written a lot about Donatism, which makes him relevant to this particular debate (I think Frend is also an Anglican, but he may not be a Christian at all). For early Christian doctrines, J. N. D. Kelly’s (another Anglican) Early Christian Doctrine is the classic source; Robert Wilken’s (Lutheran convert to Catholicism) The Spirit of Early Christianity is a more recent work, and the first volume of Jaroslav Pelikan’s (Lutheran convert to Orthodoxy) *The Christian Tradition *is excellent but rather difficult reading.

Edwin
 
janryboy said:
When Christians were into the verge of growing, Satan’s forces started to move. Persecutions, under Satan’s command, hit the early believers in Christ. But instead of destroying them, they grew in numbers. The Force was ruling over Rome. Using the Pagan Roman Caesars to slaughter the followers of Christ.
The time was getting close for Satan then to give the world his own version of the “Christian” church. And paganism was about to get a new face.
When the Emperor of Rome died, two men claimed the throne: Constantine, and the other Roman General named Maxentius.
In 312 A.D., Constantine’s army faced his enemy, Maxentius, who stood between him and the Roman Empire. It was during this battle when he “apparently” saw a sign of the cross in the heavens saying, “In this sign Conquer.” Having backed up by “The Force,” he won the battle…and owned Rome. A few years after, he “Christianized” Rome

As a result of this battle, Constantine claimed that his conversion to Christianity had taken place. He publicly issued his edict of toleration in 313 AD, and supposedly stopped the persecutions against the Christians and brought peace. His job, under the direction of Satan, was to merge paganism in the perverted form of Christianity, which he did, and turned it into ROMAN CATHOLICISM.

Testified records from the underground vaults of the inner Vatican about the truth about Constantine and his family. Constantinus Maximus was NOT really “Christianized” for he still worshipped the sun god “Sol” (Roman name for Nimrod) even until his death in 337 AD. He also had been ordering the killing of the true believers who are hiding in the mountains to survive, and to protect the word of God. And as a claim aside Peter, Constantine was the FIRST pope. Yet the seducing spirits, just like every pope that followed him, controlled him.

In short, he was the second coming of NIMROD.

Even after his “Conversion,” facts testifying that he wasn’t really saved were his devious family affairs from his brother-in-law, to his wives and to his sons which most, resulted into murders. Some of political and personal reasons.
Click to expand...

This contention always gives me a chuckle. A little research (and it really takes so very little), will reveal that Constantine supported the Arian heretics, not the Catholic Church. He and his sons even attempted depose the Pope and Catholic Bishops and set up his own Arian puppet bishops in their place. In fact, Athanasias was one of the Bishops exiled by him.

BTW, here are the actual popes of the Catholic church during the reign of Emperor Constantine.
Name Dates (A.D.)

St. Felix I 269-274
St. Eutychian 275 - 283
St. Caius 283 - 296
St. Marcellinus 296-304
St. Marcellus I 308-309
St. Eusebius 309-1309
St. Meltiades 311-314
St. Sylvester I 314-335
St. Marcus 336-336
St. Julius I 337-352
 
thanks for the insights guys!

we are on novena on the feast of Senor Sto Nino (Holy Child Jesus)…i’ll be praying for you guys!

Shalom

janry
 
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