How "Bad"/ Anti Catholic is the KJV?

  • Thread starter Thread starter El_PAso
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Howdy,

I have been searching for a good audio version of the Bible. Most are overly dramatic and flowery and unlistenable to my ears EXCEPT a reading of the KJV by Johnny Cash!

Wonderful, sober, reflective and of course that voice!

But I don’t want to be filling my head/heart with half truths. I am familiar with numerous protestant canards and have a working knowledge of the history of the Bible. I have RSVCE, Douay-Rheims, and NAB. All my study Bible rely upon the RSVCE.

I am curious if there are any serious revisions to the KJV that would be confusing.

Any pitfalls I need to be aware of if I proceed?

Thanks,

EP
There are (unabridged) dramatized (but true to text) versions of both the NT (RSV) and OT / NT (NKJV) available from Amazon-Audiobooks. I have both, they’re quite good. Especially Michael York, who has an amazing voice for Holy Scripture. He and some of the other actors are on both versions, interestingly enough.
 
And just shows why I dislike the DR and prefer the King James.

And no, only one reading with a bias will see “anti-Catholicism” in the KJV’s John 3:16. It’s a fine translation of the Greek.

“Litmus-testing” is not a good way of assessing a Bible’s suitability.
King James is a beautiful, scholarly responsible translation of Scripture. Modernized version or the 1611 Renaissance English version. It is a great treasure of Western Christianity, recognized as such throughout the world. I personally think many prefer to fuss about translations because it is more satisfying than sitting in a room alone reading the Gospel. Anyone who has actually read different Bibles soon realizes you get the point…doesn’t matter which translation you read. And that is the point.

Straining out gnats swallowing camels…
 
And just shows why I dislike the DR and prefer the King James.

And no, only one reading with a bias will see “anti-Catholicism” in the KJV’s John 3:16. It’s a fine translation of the Greek.
The KJV does in fact show a bias against Catholic teaching and practice in its choice of words.

Acts 15, 2

When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. - KJV

And when Paul and Barnabas had no small contest with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of the other side, should go up to the apostles and priests to Jerusalem about this question. - DRB

The Greek word used for “elders” is πρεσβυτέρους (presbyterous) which literally means ‘elders’ - properly, “a mature man having seasoned judgment”. However, Catholics have understood the word πρεσβύτερος to mean a priest subordinate to a hierarch, who is ordained to offer sacrifice under the direction of a chief priest. It doesn’t mean a lay governor of the church, such as a Protestant elder. The Catholic position is consistent with NT usage, where “chief priests and elders (πρεσβύτερος” - Matt 21:23 KJV) refers to two levels of ordained hierarchy in Judaism, both of whom are involved in the sacrificial temple worship. Luke acknowledges that the term was applied by the nascent church to those men who were chosen by the bishops (overseers) to assist them by administering the sacraments to congregations where they could not be physically present. Protestants chose to ignore or overlooked this dual characteristic and capacity of the ancient Jewish elder זָקֵן = πρεσβύτερος as opposed to the primary function of the temple priest כֹהֵן = ἱερεὺς and, so, reduced their πρεσβύτερος to mere advisors and teachers, having had eliminated sacrifice from their religious worship. The altar had been replaced by the pulpit as the focal point of worship. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology without any consideration given to its historical meaning or application.

Genesis 3, 15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head
, and thou shalt bruise his heel. - KJV

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed:* she shall crush thy head***, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - DRB

Catholic scholars and apologists in favour of Jerome’s translation of the Hebrew OT inform us that the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo (c. A.D. 40) preferred the ipsa reading, having argued from the Hebrew poetic technique known as parallel poetry (chiasmus). This form of poetry comprises about 76% of the OT, most commonly in the Book of Proverbs and the Psalms. We also find it in Genesis 1. Although the Book of Genesis is a historical narrative written in prose, parallel poetry (the expression of one idea in two or more different ways, or the idea of one line following the idea of another line) is a literary technique that is also used when recording a spoken prophecy. Genesis 3:15 is the first Messianic prophecy ever uttered, and it was by God Himself. Let us examine some examples of parallelism found in the OT. For example, Isaiah 6:10:

A. Make the [heart] of this people [fat]
B. and make their [ears] [heavy]
C. and [shut] their [eyes]
C1. lest they [see] with their [eyes]
B1. and [hear] with their [ears]
A1. and [understand] with their [heart], and return, and be healed
[cf. Hebrew Parallelism, by Jeff A. Benner]

Now in Genesis 3:15, a couplet (distich) parallel a following couplet:

A1. I shall put enmities between [thee] and the [woman]
B1. and between [thy seed] and [her seed]
A2. [She] shall crush [thy head]
B2. and [thou] shalt lie in wait for [her heel]

We see that line A1 corresponds with line A2, and line B1 with B2. The “woman” in line A1 refers to “she” in A2. Thus to make the subject of line A2 ‘he’ or ‘it’, and to say it relates to the seed in line B1, is obviously bad Hebrew poetry. Clearly the “he” or “it” readings ruin the synonymous parallelism of this verse and so are more likely to be at variance with the author’s intention. According to the sacred text, it is the woman who is at enmity with the serpent, while the woman’s seed is at enmity with the serpent’s seed. If we accurately observe the parallelism here, we should reasonably conclude from the first enmity announced between the woman and the serpent that the subsequent pronouns refer to the first protagonist, the woman, and the first antagonist, the serpent. The pronoun ipsa thereby refers to the female protagonist who, because of the serpent’s antagonism and her opposition against it, victoriously crushes its head. A radical shift to the woman’s seed certainly does violence to the rhythm of the passage from a literary perspective, though theologically there is no conflict. Jerome consulted with Jewish Biblical scholars while he translated the Hebrew into Latin in Bethlehem. So he could have taken this literary device into account in his choice of pronouns.

I believe the translators of the KJV intentionally removed the female pronoun in the second clause because it didn’t square with the Protestant doctrine of sola Christo but rather with the Catholic doctrine of human merit in the economy of salvation.

:heaven:
 
The KJV does in fact show a bias against Catholic teaching and practice in its choice of words.
I’m also of the opinion that word-heavy “analyses” such as these are an example of “doth speaketh too much”; i.e. evidence of a weak position.

“presbyteros” simply means “elder”. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to interpret or read in or read out a priestly role. Whether or not these men were priests is something addressed outside of translation; it belongs to history, not language. That the King James uses “elder” is not anti-Catholic bias. It’s simply accurate translation. Catholic editions use this word too,

Ipsa. Nah. I don’t go with this reading, seeing that it’s pretty much unique to the Vulgate and its descendants. Most other translations, Protestant and Catholic use “it” and “he”, again, as a translation decision. Since the DR was translated from the Vulgate, “she” is the proper rendering. One is not obligated to go this route when translating directly from the Hebrew, and especially not if translating from the LXX.

It’s all translation. In fact, the King James was commissioned with a more Catholic/Episcopal favour with instructions to downplay the Puritans. No one need to see anti-Catholic bias where words are translated accurately from the source material.
 
“presbyteros” simply means “elder”. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to interpret or read in or read out a priestly role… That the King James uses “elder” is not anti-Catholic bias. It’s simply accurate translation. Catholic editions use this word too.
If you wish to give the 54 translators the benefit of the doubt, that’s fine. But let’s not forget that the Protestant “reformers” removed 7 OT books from the Bible, having classified them as apocrypha. As you know, the word literally means “hidden”. Yet of all the 300 OT quotes in the NT, two-thirds come from the Septuagint. Obviously, these books were recognized as what we would classify as being canonical in the time of Jesus. The Septuagint was in common use then in Palestine. The Protestant reformers, however, rationalized that these books didn’t belong in the Bible because they didn’t belong in the Jewish OT canon which, by the way, wasn’t yet set in the time of Jesus. In the late first century, the academy of rabbis in Jamnia [Yabneh] didn’t fix the canon, but simply discussed which marginal books shouldn’t belong. The Jamnian Palestinian version written in Greek was a fabricated set of texts deliberately changed and then presented as the genuine ancient version. Irenaeus complained the Jews were altering the Scriptures in order to refute the Messiahship of Jesus (A.H. XXl.3). The Masoretic scholars produced the authorized Hebrew Bible composed with all the textual variations which differed from the original Greek Septuagint text and apparently earlier post-Temple Hebrew versions as well. The Masorites reset the Jewish canon by dropping the seven Old Testament books and parts of Daniel and Esther that were in the Catholic canon. It was the Masoretic text, produced in Mediaeval time about a millennium after the time of Christ, that the reformers appealed to in justification for their biased act. The truth is they rejected these books because they were compatible with Catholic doctrine.
Ipsa. Nah. I don’t go with this reading, seeing that it’s pretty much unique to the Vulgate and its descendants. Most other translations, Protestant and Catholic use “it” and “he”, again, as a translation decision. Since the DR was translated from the Vulgate, “she” is the proper rendering. One is not obligated to go this route when translating directly from the Hebrew, and especially not if translating from the LXX.
The authorized Jewish version of the Masoretic text (Textus Receptus) is a text compiled from medieval manuscripts by Jewish scholar Jacob ben Chayim. Known in Hebrew as the Mikra’ot Gedolot, this version of the Old Testament was published in 1524-25 and became the model for all future Jewish Bible editions. However, this is a re-instituted Hebrew translation and a corrupted text as the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal. Originally, the Hebrew language was written only in consonants, as were most ancient languages. The Masorites established the translation of the words in the Hebrew text by adding vowel signs for the first time to the Hebrew words in the 9th and 10th centuries(cf. The JPS Guide to Jewish Traditions). The Masoretic clearly has the masculine pronoun “he” (hŭ) and the masculine form of the verb. But the pronoun is only identified as masculine by the arbitrary Masoretic point that wasn’t part of the original text. These vowel signs didn’t exist in any Hebrew manuscript in Jerome’s time. As to the form of the verb, the difference between the male and female form can be similarly a mere gloss. Donatella Scaiola (Testi tradizionale rivisitati) argues “from the philological standpoint the reading in the feminine is possible in so far as in the Pentateuch we find many masculine pronouns (q’re) to be understood in the feminine sense." (cf. Fr. Stefano Maria Manelli, The Woman and the serpent: Genesis 3:15).

As for the Septuagint, there were four Greek versions in Origen’s time. He tried to recover the original text in the wake of the assembly of rabbis in Jamnia. He arranged these versions in six columns in what is known as the Hexpala. The Hexapla was kept in the library at Caesarea in Palestine, where it was examined by Jerome when he was working on the Vulgate. Fragments of the Hexapla survived in the writings of the Fathers. The Benedictine biblical scholar, Bernard de Montfaucon, published a two-volume edition of these fragments in 1713. He gives the reading: autos , “he,” in one place and Allos aute , “she” “in another.

With regard to the word “it” (ipsum), the original Hebrew word hew simply means “the former” or “just referred to” without implying gender and number. This pronoun can mean he, she, or they. There is no way that any determination can be made by referring to linguistic exponents alone. To say “She/He will crush your head” is forcing one’s interpretation on the text unless one put things into their proper context. The epicene pronoun must refer back to the woman, since it is established that it is she who is at enmity with the serpent (See Rev 12:7. 17), while her offspring is at enmity with its offspring ( See Matt 23:33).

:heaven:
 
The issue with the King James is not that it’s anti-Catholic, but rather its underlying texts (the Textus Receptus) is four hundred years out of date, and can now be considered defective. It results in some textual inaccuracies, but nothing against faith and morals.
The differences I’ve found so far are minor. King James says, “pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape these things” (Lk21:36), kataxioo, while NASV uses “katischuo have strength”. Both use “ekpheugo-flee-away-from”.

Peter’s words in 2:2:18, “…the false seek to entice …the TRULY escaped” — King James “ontos apopheugo”. NASV uses “oligos apopheugo”, barely escaped.

I like NASV because it’s usually closer to the Greek (yes it’s missing the other books). But it’s wise to continue to study, to know mistakes; it appears as a mistake to me to not translate James2:14 as he intended, “That faith (dead, without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!”

I wanted a pocket computer Bible, to search for verses (like a concordance); had one with NIV, but that translation is sorry. Search for “Jehovah”, and it says “JEHOVAH IS NOT IN THE BIBLE”. Really. Franklin Bookman only offers KJV, and NIV (both Protestant).

So I bought a “Now Bible” NASV; it talks, and has a very acceptable voice. It’s also an MP3 player, though I’ve not put any music or movies on it. Shirt-pocket sized, Li-ion battery, recharges off a USB. Might be a reasonable answer to a “talking Bible”…

🙂
 
I’m sorry.

I meant specifically the NT which is all Johnny Cash read.
The KJV is far better in the OT. Its NT is stilted and cumbersome - the Douay-Rheims being better in that regard. Too bad there is no audio version of the 1941 Confraternity New Testament.
 
Actually the original 1611 KJV kept the Apocrypha. It was only in some later editions, mainly for use by Baptists and Presbyterians, that it was removed…
Actually the KJV kept all 7 books ,but in a separate area …
You can still buy a KJV with all of the books considered canonical by the CC. The vast majority of KJV’s printed do not have these seven books, so make sure that the one you are getting does. The general term used by English-speaking Protestants for such a version is a Bible “with Apocrypha”, and a Protestant bookstore should be able to find you something if you ask them for a “KJV with Apocrypha”.

As gus mentioned, these seven books are usually in a separate section (usually labeled “Apocrypha”), but they are all there. You can mentally rearrange them as you wish, and can certainly pretend that you are reading a misprinted Bible in which the seven books were mistakenly printed in a separate section if that helps you read it :).
I’m also of the opinion that word-heavy “analyses” such as these are an example of “doth speaketh too much”; i.e. evidence of a weak position.

“presbyteros” simply means “elder”. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to interpret or read in or read out a priestly role. Whether or not these men were priests is something addressed outside of translation; it belongs to history, not language. That the King James uses “elder” is not anti-Catholic bias. It’s simply accurate translation. Catholic editions use this word too…
+1 insightful.
 
Very old KJVs contain the Deutedocanonical books. Ironically they actually have 1 and 2 Esdras and the Prayer of Mannaseh; which were all in the Latin Vulgate at the time in it but moved to a separate portion. Catholics always boast that they have more books than Protestants but Orthodox Bibles tend to have even more books than them. Who cares really? The Deuteroconicals aren’t that important and it’s the Old Testament we are talking about. The New Testament is the same in all of Christianity which is really the important thing. If it were about groups having more books or less books in the New Testament Canon, I think it would be more of an issue. Which very well could have happened had the Church not been United in the first centuries as many books not in the Canon now were read as Scripture in certain regions. The Shepherd of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter, Didache, 1 Clement, Epistle of Barnabas are all books which were very popular in early Christianity but didn’t make the cut in the end.
 
The KJV is more Catholic than today’s Catholic Bibles! That’s progress for ya! 😉
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top