How bad are Canadian Catholics really?

[sambos671]

I spend time explaining the Catholic Faith on other boards. And there is always a few who say things like “Catholics don’t really don’t understand faith and hold a fatalistic view.” Or “Catholics I know are the worst people” and some such. For a long time I chalked it up to the same propaganda you always here about Catholics but then I started noticing that all these comments I got from different places had one thing in common the people saying this live in Canada. Now I’m not saying that there isn’t a serious lack of catachesis in the United States but the consistency with Canada being mentioned and reviewing a little bit of Catholic history in Canada I came across the Winepeg Statement. Now I’m wondering as bad as it is in the US. How are Canadian Catholics faring? I know there were some serious anti catholic legislation just passed there but what’s the story?

 

[HB11]

that s strange, I had a Priest from Canada tell me in confession that people like me make people out there think Catholics are nuts, because I don’t know my religion. I had gone to confess because I had missed Mass due to asthma ,it was very hot summer and I missed one Sunday. I figure he is a foreigner and didn’t have Irish or Italian Sisters of Mercy from B’klyn but he was on a roll with me too because he didn’t like my Teeshirt. .

 

[MidnightSun12]

Canada is a much more socially liberal country then the united states is. Our conservative parties won’t even go near key social issues such as abortion because the public opinion is so overwhelmingly pro-death. This lack of opposition towards intrinsic evils also seeps over into our theology to a greater degree then what you might see in the US.

A big issue for christians in Canada, that doesn’t currently existin the US, is the freedom of speech issues. Speaking out against abortion and gay “marriage” are almost unheard of during homilies and there has been some legal persucution towards religious leaders in Canada who have spoken negatively about homosexual acts. This is a real problem for a faithful Catholic in Canada since we have a duty to speak out against homosexual acts in order to help gay people get to heaven. In Quebec, which happens to be over 80% “Catholic”, there is a government-funded registry of “homophobic acts” where anybody can report you for merely speaking negatively about the act of sodomy.

lifesitenews.com/news/government-funded-registry-of-homophobic-acts-launched-today-in-quebec

Some parts of Canada are worse then others. Looking at how Canadian’s would have voted in the last US Presidential election, you can probably see which province’s might be the least hostile towards a good, faithful Catholic:

news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/04/canada-calls-the-u-s-election-guess-who-wins-obama-or-romney/

All in all, the future does not look very bright for faithful Catholics in Canada. I likely would not advise an American Catholic to move north.

 

[missadeangelis]

I spend time explaining the Catholic Faith on other boards. And there is always a few who say things like “Catholics don’t really don’t understand faith and hold a fatalistic view.” Or “Catholics I know are the worst people” and some such. For a long time I chalked it up to the same propaganda you always here about Catholics but then I started noticing that all these comments I got from different places had one thing in common the people saying this live in Canada. Now I’m not saying that there isn’t a serious lack of catachesis in the United States but the consistency with Canada being mentioned and reviewing a little bit of Catholic history in Canada I came across the Winepeg Statement. Now I’m wondering as bad as it is in the US. How are Canadian Catholics faring? I know there were some serious anti catholic legislation just passed there but what’s the story?

Yes, I would say the situation is every bit as bad as it is in the US, probably even a little worse IMHO. Secularism is taking over and minimalism is the favoured approach both in liturgical matters and catechesis.

 

[sambos671]

Canada is a much more socially liberal country then the united states is. Our conservative parties won’t even go near key social issues such as abortion because the public opinion is so overwhelmingly pro-death. This lack of opposition towards intrinsic evils also seeps over into our theology to a greater degree then what you might see in the US.

A big issue for christians in Canada, that doesn’t currently existin the US, is the freedom of speech issues. Speaking out against abortion and gay “marriage” are almost unheard of during homilies and there has been some legal persucution towards religious leaders in Canada who have spoken negatively about homosexual acts. This is a real problem for a faithful Catholic in Canada since we have a duty to speak out against homosexual acts in order to help gay people get to heaven. In Quebec, which happens to be over 80% “Catholic”, there is a government-funded registry of “homophobic acts” where anybody can report you for merely speaking negatively about the act of sodomy.

lifesitenews.com/news/government-funded-registry-of-homophobic-acts-launched-today-in-quebec

Some parts of Canada are worse then others. Looking at how Canadian’s would have voted in the last US Presidential election, you can probably see which province’s might be the least hostile towards a good, faithful Catholic:

news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/04/canada-calls-the-u-s-election-guess-who-wins-obama-or-romney/

All in all, the future does not look very bright for faithful Catholics in Canada. I likely would not advise an American Catholic to move north.

Wow that is rough!!! I don’t plan on moving to the great white north (nod to Geddy Lee), however, this is troubling. Sounds like the real church will have to go underground up there. I’ll keep you guys in prayer. But the many Catholics who are up there and are not faithful. They need to be converted!!! How do the faithful Canadian Catholics get the message out to their less than faithful parish members? I mean they can go to jail just for saying what the church teaches!!! What about the Bishops are they in line with the magisterium up there? I find it scary the number of Canadian Bishops that supported the Winepeg Statement. I know that happened sometime ago but have things changed?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I spend time explaining the Catholic Faith on other boards. And there is always a few who say things like “Catholics don’t really don’t understand faith and hold a fatalistic view.” Or “Catholics I know are the worst people” and some such. For a long time I chalked it up to the same propaganda you always here about Catholics but then I started noticing that all these comments I got from different places had one thing in common the people saying this live in Canada. Now I’m not saying that there isn’t a serious lack of catachesis in the United States but the consistency with Canada being mentioned and reviewing a little bit of Catholic history in Canada I came across the Winepeg Statement. Now I’m wondering as bad as it is in the US. How are Canadian Catholics faring? I know there were some serious anti catholic legislation just passed there but what’s the story?

There really isn’t a difference. There are those who are good Catholics and there are those who are nominal. I don’t think a particular place magically makes Catholics good. The good thing about Canada that I see from my experience is that people who are going to Church more often are interested in the faith. Its good when society really doesn’t care about religion, we are a very liberal nation, those who do make the effort to go to Church really wants to be there. When I was in the Philippines it was a social expectation that you go to Church on Sundays. So you have the people who show up to Church for the sake of showing up, because people expect you to be there, especially your family. There is no such social pressure here, so people I see in Church at least wants to be there and wants to be close to God. Now the level of catechesis, that is a different thing and a whole 'nother issue.

 

[MidnightSun12]

Wow that is rough!!! I don’t plan on moving to the great white north (nod to Geddy Lee), however, this is troubling. Sounds like the real church will have to go underground up there. I’ll keep you guys in prayer. But the many Catholics who are up there and are not faithful. They need to be converted!!! How do the faithful Canadian Catholics get the message out to their less than faithful parish members? I mean they can go to jail just for saying what the church teaches!!! What about the Bishops are they in line with the magisterium up there? I find it scary the number of Canadian Bishops that supported the Winepeg Statement. I know that happened sometime ago but have things changed?

You hit the nail on the head. While religious persecution is a reality in Canada most Canadian Catholics (and Church’s) don’t even know it exists because they are in favor of gay “marriage” and abortion, themselves.

I think sites like CAF are an incredibly valuable tool for evangelizing Canadians. My conversion to the faith a year and a half ago was largely assisted by this website. When I first visited CAF I saw aspects of the faith that I had never even been exposed to when I occaisonally went to mass as a lapsed Catholic (such as the entire concept of sin). We have a very controlled media in Canada and the Church has very much fallen to the iron fist of political correctness. Yes, I agree that no evangelization is going to be possible through public channels up here. It is going to have to start in the home, through the internet and I think this will be assisted when times get tougher and people start to realize that socialism’s concept of eutopia is unattainable and they start to look elsewhere for answers.

 

[PatriciaEllen]

I likely would not advise an American Catholic to move north.

But where else are Americans going to go when we run out of drinkable water?



Sorry, my brother is an astrophysicist involved in climate change science and most of the United States is going to be toast. I figured that was one of the reasons why Canada has made it so difficult for U.S. citizens to become Canadian citizens - Catholic or not.

Are Quebec Catholics different than non-Quebec Catholics?

 

[Linux]

You hit the nail on the head. While religious persecution is a reality in Canada most Canadian Catholics (and Church’s) don’t even know it exists because they are in favor of gay “marriage” and abortion, themselves.

I think sites like CAF are an incredibly valuable tool for evangelizing Canadians. My conversion to the faith a year and a half ago was largely assisted by this website. When I first visited CAF I saw aspects of the faith that I had never even been exposed to when I occaisonally went to mass as a lapsed Catholic (such as the entire concept of sin). We have a very controlled media in Canada and the Church has very much fallen to the iron fist of political correctness. Yes, I agree that no evangelization is going to be possible through public channels up here. It is going to have to start in the home, through the internet and I think this will be assisted when times get tougher and people start to realize that socialism’s concept of eutopia is unattainable and they start to look elsewhere for answers.

I think its a mistake to think that agreeing with the legalisation of something is the same thing as agreeing with the morality of something. I dare say that most of the people that you are accusing only agree with the legal right because they understand the meaning of a pluralistic democracy. That doesn’t mean they think that abortion and gay marriage is morally good. So the real issue here is how we define good politics; what is the best way to run a pluralistic society of differing cultures and religious or philosophical beliefs about the moral good. If Catholics want the law to reflect their Catholic faith, then what they really want is a theocracy, not a democracy and thus are fooling themselves every-time they make their faith a political matter. The state can take sides with the pragmatic good because that much is usually self-evident. Catholic revelation is not self evident.

I think it is hypocritical to want to legally impose you beliefs on other people and yet ask the state to protect you from other peoples beliefs. If the church was forced by the state to marry gay people then that would be a genuine bases upon which to let your voice be heard in the political arena. Otherwise you are succeeding only in making the church look like a fascist organisation, when in reality it is not.

The Goal is to convert people to the truth. The goal of Christianity is not to legally enforce their religious beliefs on the rest of humanity.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

But where else are Americans going to go when we run out of drinkable water?



Sorry, my brother is an astrophysicist involved in climate change science and most of the United States is going to be toast. I figured that was one of the reasons why Canada has made it so difficult for U.S. citizens to become Canadian citizens - Catholic or not.

Are Quebec Catholics different than non-Quebec Catholics?

1. IF climate change makes the US a desert do you think Canada is going to stop the US Military from re-defining the border? (not to mention all those gun toting American civilians)
2. Quebec in many ways has gone so very secular so the answer to the second issue is no.

 

[MidnightSun12]

Are Quebec Catholics different than non-Quebec Catholics?

I believe Quebec Catholics have a 10% weekly church attendance rate which is about half that of the rest of the rest of Canada. That province’s media and politicians are very liberal and there is quite a bit of cultural isolation between Quebec and the rest of Canada (due to the language barrier).

Liberalism is quite incompatible with a strong Catholic faith so it is no wonder that the Church has been damaged so disproportionately in this provine.

 

[PatriciaEllen]

Well, at least Quebec hasn’t gone totally French. 10% attendance is better than 5% (France).

I guess I’m really insulated from a lot of what goes on in other areas of the U.S. and Canada because I live in Los Angeles.

Here in L.A. you can’t swing a cat without hitting a Catholic Church and every church has at least 3 Masses on Sunday and all of them are packed with the faithful. Add to that the Saturday evening Mass, baptisms, weddings and funerals and by Sunday evening every priest looks like he’a about to collapse from exhaustion.

 

[MidnightSun12]

I think its a mistake to think that agreeing with the legalisation of something is the same thing as agreeing with the morality of something. I dare say that most of the people that you are accusing only agree with the legal right because they understand the meaning of a pluralistic democracy. That doesn’t mean they think that abortion and gay marriage is morally good. So the real issue here is how we define good politics; what is the best way to run a pluralistic society of differing cultures and religious or philosophical beliefs about the moral good. If Catholics want the law to reflect their Catholic faith, then what they really want is a theocracy, not a democracy and thus are fooling themselves every-time they make their faith a political matter. The state can take sides with the pragmatic good because that much is usually self-evident. Catholic revelation is not self evident.

I think it is hypocritical to want to legally impose you beliefs on other people and yet ask the state to protect you from other peoples beliefs. If the church was forced by the state to marry gay people then that would be a genuine bases upon which to let your voice be heard in the political arena. Otherwise you are succeeding only in making the church look like a fascist organisation, when in reality it is not.

The Goal is to convert people to the truth. The goal of Christianity is not to legally enforce their religious beliefs on the rest of humanity.

It is simply not possible for a Catholic to separate their faith from any aspect of their lives (including politics).

If you accept infallible Church teaching that heaven and both hell exist and that homosexual activity puts a gay person’s soul in grave danger, then you have a duty to do everything in your power to help save that soul. For you to stand by and allow gay people to endanger their souls without saying anything would show grave disregard for your neighbour. Even worse: for a Catholic to actually endorse same-sex activity with their vote, knowing that it will put souls in danger, is nothing short of satanic.

 

[Linux]

It is simply not possible for a Catholic to separate their faith from any aspect of their lives (including politics).

If you accept infallible Church teaching that heaven and both hell exist and that homosexual activity puts a gay person’s soul in grave danger, then you have a duty to do everything in your power to help save that soul.

That does not include legally enforcing your beliefs on the rest of society. Its one thing, believing that something is wrong and attempting to convert people to that belief and having the legal right to do so. Its quite a different matter entirely when religion becomes a dictatorship supported by the state. That is not a secular democracy.

Neither is agreeing that some type of legal action is in line with the spirit of democracy the same thing as agreeing that something is morally correct in the Christian sense of the word.

If you believe that a secular democracy is the least of two evils, then you have to accept the legalisation of abortion and gay marriage.

 

[thenobes]

You define hypocrisy incorrectly.

I think it is hypocritical to want to legally impose you beliefs on other people and yet ask the state to protect you from other peoples[sic] beliefs.

First hypocrisy is doing one thing and saying another. If I believe my beliefs are right and yours wrong, and act upon that, where is the hypocrisy?

Secondly, it you are saying that I am asking everyone to accept others’ beliefs, yet I do not do that myself, then that is wrong, becuse I do not ask anyone to accept morally wrong beliefs. Especially not if those beliefs are bad for society in general. I assume you and I are part of the society, no?

If the church was forced by the state to marry gay people then that would be a genuine bases[sic] upon which to let your voice be heard in the political arena. Otherwise you are succeeding only in making the church look like a fascist organisation, when in reality it is not.

Warped logic. By that logic it is not right to make laws against some people murdering others, because the state is not forcing you to get directly involved in the murders.

Again, some beliefs are bad for the society in general, tending toward greater moral corruption and and there have to be limits upon which beliefs may be allowed to be acted upon.

peace
steve

 

[MidnightSun12]

That does not include legally enforcing your beliefs on the rest of society.

I agree that you need a majority of voters to change laws, but to say that there is no legal basis to oppose homosexual “marriage” is untrue. We oppose incest, polygamy and paedophilia legally. Does it matter whether somebody’s reasons for opposing legalized paedophilia are based out of religious principles or because of some other reason?

 

[PatriciaEllen]

I think its a mistake to think that agreeing with the legalisation of something is the same thing as agreeing with the morality of something. I dare say that most of the people that you are accusing only agree with the legal right because they understand the meaning of a pluralistic democracy. That doesn’t mean they think that abortion and gay marriage is morally good. So the real issue here is how we define good politics; what is the best way to run a pluralistic society of differing cultures and religious or philosophical beliefs about the moral good. If Catholics want the law to reflect their Catholic faith, then what they really want is a theocracy, not a democracy and thus are fooling themselves every-time they make their faith a political matter. The state can take sides with the pragmatic good because that much is usually self-evident. Catholic revelation is not self evident.

I think it is hypocritical to want to legally impose you beliefs on other people and yet ask the state to protect you from other peoples beliefs. If the church was forced by the state to marry gay people then that would be a genuine bases upon which to let your voice be heard in the political arena. Otherwise you are succeeding only in making the church look like a fascist organisation, when in reality it is not.

The Goal is to convert people to the truth. The goal of Christianity is not to legally enforce their religious beliefs on the rest of humanity.

Well said. I couldn’t agree more. I live in a “Blue” city, Los Angeles and have no desire to see or work towards the establishment of a Catholic theocracy. Massachusetts is 75% Democratic state wide yet has the same huge level of Mass attendance as Los Angeles. The same for Manhattan. Go to the web page of St. Patrick’s Cathedral and look at their Mass schedule for daily Masses and Sunday Masses. And St. Patrick’s Cathedral is merely one Catholic church in Manhattan.

Are Catholics who vote Democratic “nominal” Catholics or less faithful than Catholics who vote Republican? Does not wanting to enforce your Catholic doctrine on other citizens of a democracy or republic make you a lesser member of the faithful even if you don’t approve of abortion or same sex marriage?

We should always be vigilant of any state attempting to limit or quash the free expression of faith. At the same time, shouldn’t Catholics be vigilant of any organization within the Church that wants to impose Catholic theology on an entire society and take away the right of religious liberty those members of society possess?

 

[snowflakeinlove]

There really isn’t a difference. There are those who are good Catholics and there are those who are nominal. I don’t think a particular place magically makes Catholics good.

I am from Canada and this is exactly what I think.
It’s true that gay marriage is legal and we have no laws against abortion. But I’m not sure how this affects Canadian Catholics.
It really depends on the individual I think. I still hear homilies about abortion and contraception and gay marriage in different parishes (just two weeks ago my priest mentioned all three in one homily), and all my Catholic school religion teachers have talked about it.

I’ve met Catholics here who are strongly for abortion and gay marriage, and Catholics here who are strongly against it- including Catholics from Quebec.

As for abortion- I’m really hoping the motions that were proposed recently (motion 312 and 408) are the first steps to change.

 

[PatriciaEllen]

Does it matter whether somebody’s reasons for opposing legalized paedophilia are based out of religious principles or because of some other reason?

Yes. In Western society pedophilia is the rape of children against their will. Children don’t give their consent to being forced to commit sexual acts. Western societies all have a legal age of consent where the person is considered old enough to be responsible for their choice. It can vary from 15 or 16 up to 18 years old.

Yet Western countries have increasing numbers of immigrants from the MIddle East where girls that are considered children by Western standards (under the age of 16-18) are married to men who are well over the age of 18. By Western standards, this is pedophilia as the girl is not legally considered able to give her consent to sexual activity even if her parents allow her to be wed. If Muslims in Canada or the U.S. wanted to legalize child brides for religious reasons, should Western societal (not religious) standards be overturned in order to comply with the Muslim faith?

 

[MidnightSun12]

Yes. In Western society pedophilia is the rape of children against their will. Children don’t give their consent to being forced to commit sexual acts. Western societies all have a legal age of consent where the person is considered old enough to be responsible for their choice. It can vary from 15 or 16 up to 18 years old.

Yet Western countries have increasing numbers of immigrants from the MIddle East where girls that are considered children by Western standards (under the age of 16-18) are married to men who are well over the age of 18. By Western standards, this is pedophilia as the girl is not legally considered able to give her consent to sexual activity even if her parents allow her to be wed. If Muslims in Canada or the U.S. wanted to legalize child brides for religious reasons, should Western societal (not religious) standards be overturned in order to comply with the Muslim faith?

It’s important not to anchor our values to secular views. There are the early signs of a movement in the west to re-brand peadophiles as being “minor attracted adults” and they have “research” showing that peadophilia is not damaging to children when it is consentual.

Marriage has always been defined as being between one man and one women where both people are of a certain age. If our secular values can lead to a change to one part of this definition, then it can most certainly lead to a change to the other part.

Our opposition to gay marriage and peadophilia must be anchored to the Catholic Church’s infallible teaching that these acts are a grave violation of natural law, not the relativistic values of a decaying society.