If secular humanism is secular democracy, then it is your belief that Catholicism is not compatible with the idea of there being a split between church and state, and neither do you support American democracy. You support a theocracy.It really is not complicated. As I said before, Catholics under ANY form of government will not support intrinsic evil.
Voting for something that is intrinsically evil when an lesser evil exists is actually also a grave sin. This is what I mean by direct support. We may live peaceably under the current government, but that does not mean that the Church will somehow accept, even indirectly, abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, and other evils solely for the sake of a greater good. It will not happen.Again, permitting is not the same as supporting. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice.
Again, permitting is not the same as supporting. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice.I find the concept of practicing a faith that is to be lived in every aspect and then abandoned to support a government rather amusing, don’t you? How is that faith at all?
Gay rights is not a matter of votes. Its a human right just like gay marriage and abortion.Voting for something that is intrinsically evil
If supporting the fundamental truth that abortion is the murder of innocents, and that gay ‘marriage’ cannot exist because of the purpose of marriage, is somehow now a theocracy, then yes. Call it whatever you want. Why don’t we simply give in to all secular laws? It’s for the good of the nation, right? Probably for the same reason Catholics never have, since the time of the Roman persecutions: we will live our faith in ALL aspects of life.If secular humanism is secular democracy, then it is your belief that Catholicism is not compatible with the idea of there being a split between church and state, and neither do you support American democracy. You support a theocracy.
You either support democracy or you don’t.If supporting the fundamental truth that abortion is the murder of innocents, and that gay ‘marriage’ cannot exist because of the purpose of marriage, is somehow now a theocracy, then yes. Call it whatever you want. Why don’t we simply give in to all secular laws? It’s for the good of the nation, right? Probably for the same reason Catholics never have, since the time of the Roman persecutions: we will live our faith in ALL aspects of life.
My friend, it is obvious that your moral beliefs are not compatible at the moment with those of Catholicism. The Church views no difference between allowing one to die and killing someone. The same is true for allowing intrinsic evil. Catholics cannot allow intrinsic evil to exist without opposing it. This is why the Church still speaks out against abortion, decades after the law passed. This is how it will always be. It is obvious that secularists have far different philosophies that Catholics. Please don’t expect the Church to somehow change its stance to one of ‘tolerating evil to be comfortable’. It won’t happen. Sorry.Again, permitting is not the same as supporting. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice.
That sounds like quite the fallacy, no? Reminscient of G.W.'s ‘you’re either for us or against us’, yes? Catholicism doesn’t aim to bring down democracy. However, given the current evils that our government supports (or allows, whatever you wish to say), it is quite obvious we cannot give it full support. We will support just laws. Unjust laws, on the other hand, will not be tolerated. Just like Catholics under any form of government or ruling body throughout the entire history of the faith, ranging from Empire to Parliament, feudalism to communism. It really doesn’t matter. Dogma is dogma, truth is truth. Evil won’t be tolerated, privately or publicly.You either support democracy or you don’t.
My Catholic faith is compatible with not forcing ones religious beliefs on other people or nations through a system of government and legal politics. I prefer the act of evangelism. That’s what rings true to me as a Christian rather than the desperate covert legalism that is being passed off as Catholic under the guise of morality for the sake of political power.My friend, it is obvious that your moral beliefs are not compatible at the moment with those of Catholicism.
Not only are you being hypocritical you are making a contextual fallacy. You either support democracy or you don’t. Which one is it? No, its okay, don’t tell me. I already know.That sounds like quite the fallacy, no? Reminscient of G.W.'s ‘you’re either for us or against us’, yes?
There is one truth you cannot deny. Permitting is not the same as supporting. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of democracy.Just like Catholics under any form of government or ruling body throughout the entire history of the faith, ranging from Empire to Parliament, feudalism to communism. It really doesn’t matter. Dogma is dogma, truth is truth. Evil won’t be tolerated, privately or publicly.
And this is where you differ greatly from Catholic theology. You are trying to convince me, a Catholic, who views marriage as a sacred institution (and even using the ‘before religion’ argument, an institution set up to ensure the survival of a culture through procreation) and the murder of innocence, that the very dogmas of the Church regarding these grave matters are wrong, but that they are also somehow human rights, is perplexing to me. Have you read the Catechism regarding these two subjects? You should. Then you will see why Catholics do not consider them ‘human rights’.Gay rights is not a matter of votes. Its a human right just like gay marriage and abortion.
Then I will phrase it another way so that you may overcome your semantic hang up: Catholics may not support or idly permit intrinsic evil. It must be opposed. Hence the Pro-Life movement and fierce opposition by the USCCB to gay marriage.There is one truth you cannot deny. Permitting is not the same as supporting. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of democracy.
I am just telling the truth. A human right is not the same thing as Christian moral rights. Permitting the legal right to act in some way that doesn’t reflect the moral beliefs of a religious organisation is not the same thing as morally supporting immoral acts.And this is where you differ greatly from Catholic theology…
Secular humanism is not the same as a secular democracy. There is no fundamental difference between a government which presupposes atheism or a government which presupposes a religious belief.If secular humanism is secular democracy, then it is your belief that Catholicism is not compatible with the idea of there being a split between church and state, and neither do you support American democracy. You support a theocracy.
You don’t think it’s dangerous for a governing body to act as if its God? Who decides what the greater evil is?Again, permitting is not the same as supporting. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice.
Homosexuals have infinite human dignity and should afforded the same human rights as anyone else. No one, least of all the Catholic Church, is arguing against that. The issue surrounding gay marriage is not a matter of denying someone their rights; it is simply a matter of reality. Marriage is the union of a man and woman oriented towards to the good of the other and the creation of new life. The fact that the state wants to take what is essentially a religious concept then redefine is, quite frankly, ridiculous. If they the state wants to introduce tax breaks for cohabitating individuals then they should introduce the appropriate tax form.Gay rights is not a matter of votes. Its a human right just like gay marriage and abortion.
Idly permitting intrinsic evil is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of democracy.Then I will phrase it another way so that you may overcome your semantic hang up. Catholics may not support or idly permit intrinsic evil. It must be opposed. Hence the Pro-Life movement and fierce opposition by the USCCB to gay marriage.
I never said that it was.Secular humanism is not the same as a secular democracy.
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10011890_sapientiae-christianae_en.htmlMy Catholic faith is compatible with not forcing ones religious beliefs on other people or nations through a system of government and legal politics. I prefer the act of evangelism. That’s what rings true to me as a Christian rather than the desperate covert legalism that is being passed off as Catholic under the guise of morality for the sake of political power.
Permitting is permitting. Faithful Catholics may allow, and are even required to abide by, just laws of a state. However, when a law is at variance with the Law of God, we are actually required to oppose it. Allowing it or permitting it is always wrong. Please read the encyclical I posted.Idly permitting intrinsic evil is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake. God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of democracy.
Idly permitting intrinsic evil for the sake of conformity is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10011890_sapientiae-christianae_en.html
Read, my friend. Read. It outlines quite well what we are discussing. You cannot be fully Catholic and yet allow intrinsic evil. Protest must be given. The Church declares abortion and gay marriage as intrinsic evils. They do so dogmatically. You, as a Catholic, are obliged to accept this, at the very least through obedience.
Also, a quote from the mentioned encyclical:
“But, if the laws of the State are manifestly at variance with the divine law, containing enactments hurtful to the Church, or conveying injunctions adverse to the duties imposed by religion, or if they violate in the person of the supreme Pontiff the authority of Jesus Christ, then, truly, to resist becomes a positive duty, to obey, a crime; a crime, moreover, combined with misdemeanor against the State itself, inasmuch as every offense leveled against religion is also a sin against the State.”