How bad are Canadian Catholics really?

[Linux]

Allowing it or permitting it is always wrong. Please read the encyclical I posted.

That is not true. You are committing contextual fallacies again.

Idly permitting intrinsic evil for the sake of conformity is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake. There is nothing wrong with choosing the lesser of two evils, when no other option is available. If it is self evident that not permitting the existence of a lesser evil will mean accepting a greater evil, then it would be wrong not to permit a lesser evil.

God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of preserving democracy over fascism.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Idly permitting intrinsic evil for the sake of conformity is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake.

God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of preserving democracy over fascism.

You read the encyclical quite quickly. Take out the word ‘idly.’ Permitting or allowing evil is not an option. Read the encyclical. God allows evil because He gave us free will. He gave us the ability to choose sin. He loves us too much to revoke this, especially because He made us in His image, and having a will is part of that. It is QUITE a different scenario. God is not obliged to destroy us, because He is God. He loves us and has done very much to bring us back to Him. He even sent His only Son. I hope you will agree that with our support or permitting of the government, we are not in a similar situation. We must choose either to oppose an evil or support it (directly or indirectly, it doesn’t matter). We must obviously oppose it.

The government is not God. The government has a moral obligation to oppose that which is opposed to God’s law. If you disagree with these tenants, there is really nothing left for me to say. It would be difficult for you to plead ignorance. The only other option is obstinance and/or rebellion, and those are not good choices.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

That is not true, You are committing contextual fallacies again.

Idly permitting intrinsic evil for the sake of conformity is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake.

God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of preserving democracy over fascism.

There is no greater good than God’s law. God’s law can never be opposed, for any good, ever. How can any good be greater than the law of God, Who is Goodness itself, and Whose laws are all good? Read the encyclical.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

“Since, then, no one is allowed to be remiss in the service due to God, and since the chief duty of all men is to cling to religion in both its reaching and practice-not such religion as they may have a preference for, but the religion which God enjoins, and which certain and most clear marks show to be the only one true religion -it is a public crime to act as though there were no God.”

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01111885_immortale-dei_en.html

Here is another encyclical. You haven’t responded to the first one (even the quote I gave from it). Regardless, no response in opposition that you give to these encyclicals will be adequate, because they are Catholic teaching. They outline quite clearly what is required of the government and its citizens. God’s law must always be upheld, regardless of any other perceived ‘good’. If something opposes God’s law, it is automatically not a ‘good’. So, regardless of whatever you perceive this ‘greater good’ to be that a government must choose between (faced with a decision similar to God, you say, which is laughable at best), it pales in comparison with the upholding (upholding, as in the full support of, meaning that it cannot be broken by the government, meaning that it cannot be allowed or permitted at all, in any way) of God’s Almighty Law. It will always be as such. Nothing you say or believe will change this.

I guess real Catholicism is rather ‘fascist’, according to you…

 

[Linux]

God allows evil because He gave us free will.

Which is a greater good; than forcing us to do good.

Forcing ones religious beliefs on a person, community, or a nation that does not share your beliefs, through a systematic expression of government and legal authority is wrong. That is not Christian teaching. That is why secular democracies exist in order to ensure that this does not happen; because that is fascism. This is good. The downside? Gay marriage, abortion.

 

[Linux]

There is no greater good than God’s law. God’s law can never be opposed, for any good, ever. How can any good be greater than the law of God, Who is Goodness itself, and Whose laws are all good? Read the encyclical.

I am not opposing Gods law. Permitting gay marriage is not the same as supporting gay marriage.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I am not opposing Gods law. Permitting gay marriage is not the same as supporting gay marriage.

You really didn’t read the encyclical, did you? Permitting an intrinsically evil law is still a grave matter. You utterly fail to respond to all of my points, every time, without fail. You completely ignored the quotes from the encyclicals, even.

 

[Linux]

You really didn’t read the encyclical, did you? Permitting an intrinsically evil law is still a grave matter. You utterly fail to respond to all of my points, every time, without fail. You completely ignored the quotes from the encyclicals, even.

You’re completely ignoring my argument, making assumptions about what I have read or not read, and building straw-men.

 

[MidnightSun12]

That is not true, You are committing contextual fallacies again.

Idly permitting intrinsic evil for the sake of conformity is evidently not the same thing as permitting intrinsic evil when a greater good is at stake.

God permits evil for the sake of a greater good or preventing a greater evil. It is not unimaginable that a governing body might face the same choice. That is the nature of preserving democracy over fascism.

God reluctantly allows evil to occur only because He gives us free-will (He would never will sin as a desired course of action in any circumstance).

Despite the fact that God gives us free-will, however, He does not grant us the freedom to commit sin without consequences… neither should our governments.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

This is rather frustrating for me. In order for you to avoid a government that you consider ‘fascist’, you are willing to allow intrinsically evil laws for some perceived ‘good’ that is literally nothing compared to God’s Law, and which is forbidden by Catholic teaching (read the encyclicals). Do you see why I am frustrated? Do you see why your views will never align with the teachings of the Church? I hate to say this, but you are either invincibly ignorant or in rebellion.

I would really encourage you to read the encyclicals I have posted. I would encourage you to understand that the purpose of government is to support the people as leaders in Christ, and that anything they do that is opposed to God, must also be actively opposed, regardless of the form of government. Please shake the idea that this is ‘fascism’. This is simply living our faith. I am sorry that you do not feel inclined to do so when it comes to the sphere of government and politics.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10011890_sapientiae-christianae_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01111885_immortale-dei_en.html

 

[Linux]

I guess real Catholicism is rather ‘fascist’, according to you…

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with Catholic teaching, but rather you have a warped understanding of how that teaching applies in the context of a democracy operating in a pluralistic society of differing beliefs systems. It is your personal understanding of Catholicism in light of your society, not the catholic faith, that is dangerously bordering on fascism.

 

[Linux]

Despite the fact that God gives us free-will, however, He does not grant us the freedom to commit sin without consequences… neither should our governments.

A democracy cannot punish that which is true to democracy.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

You’re completely ignoring my argument, making assumptions about what I have read or not read, and building straw-men.

How am I ignoring your argument? I replied to you ‘greater good’ nonsense. I showed that equating a decision of the government and a decision of God is an impossible comparison. I gave you Catholic doctrine to back up my assertions that a government must obey the laws of God above all else, and that if they do not, they must be actively opposed. Yet you persistently deny this and state that somehow you are exempt from opposing intrinsic evils. Laws that are intrinsic evils are still intrinsic evils, whether or not you support them. If you do not ACTIVELY OPPOSE them, instead choosing to allow God’s law to be broken for the sake of some perceived greater ‘good’ (which, if you would read the encyclicals, you would realize is not greater than the subjects I have referred to thus far), you commit sin.

Point out what I have not addressed. I have addressed that it is not a greater good to allow an evil to exist. It is not the same as actively supporting. It is still sinful, nonetheless, as I have shown that intrinsic evil must be opposed. The Church makes no statement of this being ‘fascism’. So if this is what you consider ‘fascism’, then yes, I am quite the fascist.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with Catholic teaching, but rather you have a warped understanding of how that teaching applies in the context of a democracy operating in a pluralistic society of differing beliefs systems. It is your personal understanding of Catholicism in light of your society, not the catholic faith, that is dangerously bordering on fascism.

Did you read the encyclicals, and their requirements of government and citizens? They are in line with what I am saying. How, exactly, do you defend against that?

 

[MidnightSun12]

A democracy cannot punish that which is true to democracy.

Would you not agree that the 40+ democratically-elected US State governments that currently disallow gay marriage would appear to suggest the contrary?

 

[Linux]

Please shake the idea that this is ‘fascism’. This is simply living our faith.

That cannot be true, because forcing ones religious beliefs on a person, community, or a nation that does not share your beliefs, through a systematic expression of government and legal authority is wrong. That is not Christian teaching. That is why secular democracies exist in order to ensure that this does not happen; because that is fascism.

Democracy is good precisely because of that fact. And so long as that remains true, I have to accept that gay marriage and abortion is legal. That has no bearing on whether or not I believe it is right or wrong, and its being legal does not stop me from evangelising people. If the government tried to stop me from evangelising gays and abortionists, then that would be a violation of my religious liberties. But the legality of gay marriage and abortion are just an inevitable result of democracy; nothing more.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10011890_sapientiae-christianae_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01111885_immortale-dei_en.html

Thanks and a happy new year.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I am not about to engage in a pointless debate on this subject. Every time I read about the status of the Catholic Church and the Canadian government’s takeover of Parochial Schools and their supression of free speach that limits what can be preached from the pulpit, I say a little prayer of thanks that we are protected by the First Amendment of our Constitution!
However, the Canadian Government’s regulating of Parochial Schools should show every American the dangers of accepting support for big government! Never forget that he who pays the piper calls the tune!
In closi9ng, I will quote one of our Founding Fathers, Benjamin Franklin: “He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security.” And I add one of my own: Any politician who says he wants to amend or otherwise alter any of the Amendments of the Bill of Rights, should have no right to hold public office on the grounds of treason.

 

[Linux]

Would you not agree that the 40+ democratically-elected US State governments that currently disallow gay marriage would appear to suggest the contrary?

What is evident is that those 40+ demographic are not acting in the spirit of democracy. Change is a slow thing, but it’s inevitable.

 

[MidnightSun12]

What is evident is that those 40+ demographic are not acting in the spirit of democracy. Change is a slow thing, but it’s inevitable.

So is disallowing pedophilia a violation of the spirit of democracy as well?

 

[Linux]

How am I ignoring your argument? I replied to you ‘greater good’ nonsense. I showed that equating a decision of the government and a decision of God is an impossible comparison.

No it is not an impossible comparison. You are simply ignoring the comparison and my argument while making contextual fallacies by asserting that the permission of evil for the sake of a greater good can never occur legitimately in a human context. Its your unwillingness to reason that has lead you to make such an easy mistake.