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Hope_Philomena
Guest
How so?
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Sarcelle
Guest
How do you know they have no experience? They are just as human as you and I and have no doubt experienced sexual temptation as you and I.
You think single people do not struggle with temptations?
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Hope_Philomena
Guest
I don’t understand this line of thinking. For instance, a Muslim man finds a woman showing her hair to be inciting lust. So are women meant to cover every part of their body just in case one man is attracted to ankles and one man is attracted to hair?
Where are you meant to draw the line?
Why does everyone focus more on telling women to not incite lust, instead of telling men not to look at women that way? Should you not be addressing both sides of the coin, rather than just one?
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pianistclare
Guest
We should draw the line at self respect. I think most young women are self aware enough to dress well and appropriately, don’t you?.
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Hope_Philomena
Guest
Self respect is the belief that one is “behaving with honor and dignity.” I respect myself in shorts and tank tops, someone else may respect herself only in a long denim skirt and no makeup. That’s nonsensical to draw the line at a spot that is different for everyone.
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pianistclare
Guest
Basic Christian values are never nonsensical.
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Hope_Philomena
Guest
Not everyone who wants to be modest is Christian. I don’t understand your point here.
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WingsOfEagles
Guest
In Western society, it is pretty well established that the 3 Bs “boobs, butts, bellies” are things that if showing, are immodest. Frankly, men get less focus on their manner of dressing for two reasons. The first is that men’s clothing tends to show very little skin in the first place (yes, it’s usually more accepted for a man to go topless, but let’s not pretend anatomical differences don’t exist). The second is that men are very visual by nature and have more issues keeping thoughts pure when a woman is dressed immodestly (this is scientifically proven). Men’s visual nature is really the reason immodest women’s clothing exists in the first place.
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
It’s a judgment call, I think. There’s definitely a line and it can get blurry. It’s not like it’s wrong for a single young woman to dress in a way that will make her attractive to single men, just like single guys will shave and put on a nice shirt if they know they’re going somewhere with single ladies. You don’t have to completely sacrifice your femininity or physical appearance. There’s obviously a line past which it gets too sexualized, though.
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Dorothy
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It has nothing to do with an obsession about sex.
It is common sense that a woman can look very well in modest clothing that is not designed to tempt others to view her body.
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DeniseNY
Guest
Not true. It might be considered one of my indulgences, but I love clothes and fashion. In fact, I just spent yesterday afternoon organizing my closet, and most of the things I have would be - with mixed and matched appropriately - could be worn to church.
Example: I wore this vest to Liturgy last night:
pinterest.com/pin/385339311846434161/
Now, the way it is styled in the pic is how I would wear it if I were going to run errands or meet friends for lunch or something. But for church, I pair it with a long sleeve black turtleneck, black pants, and ballet flats. Nothing immodest about that. Of course, there will be those who say that women wearing pants to church is inherently immodest, but whatever.
I don’t know if maybe you’re shopping in the wrong places, but modest clothing is definitely out there.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Most people in North America dress according to the weather.
For the people who insist on dress immodestly, yeah that IS a problem.
This sort of thing creates scandal and I don’t think it’s going to be great on Judgement Day. I’ve even heard somewhere that testimony from those who fell for scandal may be brought against the person who scandalized them.
Then there’s the gray area in-between where people dress questionably but don’t really intend to.
So what needs to happen is people at least think about what they are wearing and why.
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Lea101
Guest
Tell me about it!
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Ormond
Guest
Having sexual temptations, and having sex, are not the same thing.
It is however true that some priests may have been married, or led active single lives, prior to becoming priests. I would agree that experience is as valid as any other.
I obviously am not commenting upon the experience or wisdom of any particular priest but was attempting to examine the credibility of the clergy as an institution, specifically in regards to the kind of sexual issues being referenced in this thread.
It’s simply a matter of common sense. In all walks of life, we typically give more credibility to those with the most experience with a particular issue, whatever the issue may be.
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Ormond
Guest
I respectfully hear, but obviously don’t share, your perspective.
I agree completely. Really, I do, I have nothing at all against modest dress. I just don’t consider it to be a “one true way”. If a man or woman chooses modest dress for themselves, it’s their body, their clothes, their choice, and I support it. Because after all, it’s really none of my business.
God created human bodies. They are as worthy of worship as any other part of God’s creation. Admiring the human form is not a sin, just as admiring a sunset is not a sin.
If a woman’s attire inspires me to commit some hurtful act, that is my problem, not hers. I suggest we focus our judgment on those committing hurtful acts.
As example, if I were to follow the lead of our new president and grope women against their will, then I would surely deserve the most enthusiastic condemnation!!! from all Catholics, and um, not their votes.
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Vico
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Vulgar has many meanings so I take your use of the word to mean “lewdly or profanely indecent”. Well, that would likely be illegal, but many fashions are legal today which cover the skin tightly so as to reveal every detail that underwear does not mask. Some will not be scandalized by anything, and others by almost anything. The judgement must be used for the situation. Scandal it given to others of the same sex, that may have much more allure, essentially saying, “I approve of this style of dress for women.” Same goes for men and menswear.
So modesty is about not showing off wealth, not being overly proud of appearance, and not drawing attention to be sexually aroused by being looked at (exhibitionism), in addition to the usually discussed issue of not arousing an other not married to.
You will read what likely brought about that accusation of sexism in St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica I, Question 92. The production of the woman, Article 1. Whether the woman should have been made in the first production of things?
Objection 2. Further, subjection and limitation were a result of sin, for to the woman was it said after sin (Genesis 3:16): “Thou shalt be under the man’s power”; and Gregory says that, “Where there is no sin, there is no inequality.” But woman is naturally of less strength and dignity than man; “for the agent is always more honorable than the patient,” as Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xii, 16). Therefore woman should not have been made in the first production of things before sin.
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Reply to Objection 2. Subjection is twofold. One is servile, by virtue of which a superior makes use of a subject for his own benefit; and this kind of subjection began after sin. There is another kind of subjection which is called economic or civil, whereby the superior makes use of his subjects for their own benefit and good; and this kind of subjection existed even before sin. For good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in man the discretion of reason predominates. Nor is inequality among men excluded by the state of innocence, as we shall prove (I:96:3).
newadvent.org/summa/1092.htm
And, of course we can find examples of where the discretion of reason predominates more in specific women than in specific men. So by making a general statement it is stereotyping. However even if stereotyping it is biblical because Eve was first to sin by pride. For example in Q.94 he writes :
Though the woman was deceived before she sinned in deed, still it was not till she had already sinned by interior pride. For Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xi, 30) that “the woman could not have believed the words of the serpent, had she not already acquiesced in the love of her own power, and in a presumption of self-conceit.”
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mommy_k
Guest
No…not true. I can find modest clothes at forever 21, and alot of trendy stores… you have to look.Could be. I’m from a very hot and tropical country so certain fashions are not sold here simply because it is not weather appropriate. Summer clothes are practically sold 24/7 in stores that are targeted at my age. The modest clothes are nice, but honestly boring. I have the same type of blouse in different colours
The stores that carry more modest clothes are generally targeted at older women who are working maybe that’s why it’s harder for me?
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I noticed two young at Mass recently: One dressed very modestly, and the other immodestly. I’m not what others were thinking and feeling, but the one dressed modestly looked far more sexy to me! I experienced no sexual thoughts either, but came to the conclusion that sexiness can not be easily hidden away!
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Lea101
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Then I guess we have different ideas on what trendy+modest is
that or the stuff available is just not my taste
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Lea101
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Personally I feel that if a woman is sexy, she will look sexy either in a hijab or in her birthday suit. Poor/lucky her!
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