How bare is your Catholicism?

[bilop]

Mortified. I can’t think of anything worse than sitting with some man pouring out all my sins, most of which would be sexual in nature. I was last at confession when I was at school and we had to go and had no choice in the matter. I never felt uplifted or forgiven in confession. I only ever felt embarrassed to death and mortified because just about all my sins are of the same nature. I know the church says it’s a sacrament, and required, but I don’t think God would refuse to forgive me if I made a private confession to him and expressed my regret at my sins. Except I don’t believe a lot of what I do is sinning, as defined by the church, so I don’t see I have much to confess really. I know that the church says nearly everything I do is a sin, but I just can’t see sin in much of what the church says is sin or disordered is the other word they use. I know I’m supposed to agree with everything the church teaches, but I don’t and that’s just being honest here. I’m supposed to believe Mary has been assumed into heaven. I don’t believe that. I don’t know what happened to Mary. It’s not unreasonable to assume Jesus would have assumed Mary bodily into heaven, but it’s not a believe I have, or even an opinion. I don’t know, and I don’t care. I don’t think it’s important. If it could be left at that, it wouldn’t be so bad, but it’s not - I have to actually believe in the assumption of Mary into heaven. And I can’t put my hand on my heart and say I do. I just don’t have any opinion on it at all. This is a problem I come up against time and time again with the Church. The requirement to believe certain things that I just don’t know one way or the other.

To a certain extent, we’re supposed to feel mortified at our sins. We’re supposed to be embarassed by offending God.

God Bless

 

[OraLabora]

I recommend checking out a Benedictine or Cistercian monastery. As a general rule their churches are plain. Ours for instance has only three modest statues: Mary and Child, St Benedict, and his sister St Scholastica. That’s it. The church itself is modern and very plain, but very conducive to prayer. It uses natural light as its main element.

Benedictines also have oblate programs for the laity. It’s a path to humility and worldly detachment.

We pray the Liturgy of the Hours, a very ancient prayer centered on the Psalms that has roots in Judaism.

I myself never warmed to the Rosary or other popular devotions, nor to over-the-top churches.

 

[Phemie]

I recommend checking out a Benedictine or Cistercian monastery. As a general rule their churches are plain. Ours for instance has only three modest statues: Mary and Child, St Benedict, and his sister St Scholastica. That’s it. The church itself is modern and very plain, but very conducive to prayer. It uses natural light as its main element.

Benedictines also have oblate programs for the laity. It’s a path to humility and worldly detachment.

We pray the Liturgy of the Hours, a very ancient prayer centered on the Psalms that has roots in Judaism.

I myself never warmed to the Rosary or other popular devotions, nor to over-the-top churches.

One of my favorite churches/chapels is Le Corbusier’s Notre-Dame-du-Haut in Ronchamp, France, a church people love to hate because it doesn’t meet their vision of ‘Church’. The exterior doesn’t thrill me but the inside, oh, my! I hope I can go visit it when I’m in France in the summer.

 

[OraLabora]

One of my favorite churches/chapels is Le Corbusier’s Notre-Dame-du-Haut in Ronchamp, France, a church people love to hate because it doesn’t meet their vision of ‘Church’. The exterior doesn’t thrill me but the inside, oh, my! I hope I can go visit it when I’m in France in the summer.

Here’s a couple of my favourite plain churches:

The abbey I’m associated with (St-Benoît-du-Lac in Quebec), designed by the Montreal architect Dan Hanganu and consecrated in 1994:



The new cloister:



The original cloister:



A Trappist chapel also in Quebec (Val Notre-Dame in St-Jean-de-Matha, Quebec; these are the former monks of Oka, just outside of Montreal):



Cloister:



Douai Abbey in the UK:



St-Famille parish in Sherbrooke, QC, home base for our Gregorian schola (plain church but fantastic acoustics and a very lively parish life):



And lastly, not Catholic (Anglican) but one of my favourites: St. Senara’s in Cornwall, UK (1400 years old! But rebuilt in the 12th century); so it once was Catholic!



All austere churches.

 

[OraLabora]

Now this is what I can’t stand:



It’s the conventual chapel of Monte Cassino abbey founded by St. Benedict. This is the result of its rebuilding after being mistakenly bombed by the Allies in WWII. It causes quite a scandal in the Benedictine world.

More to my tastes is the rarely-used 11th century chapel in the same monastery:

 

[Vico]

I’ve never liked statues. I’ve never liked prayer cards and the pictures on them. I’ve never liked incense and all that stuff. I’ve never liked ritual and pomp and ceremony. I’ve never liked the Rosary or all the devotions to Mary. I’ve never liked all the prayers and devotions to the Saints. I’ve never liked those big ornate churches with the very fancy artwork and architecture. I was brought to see the Vatican when I was little and I thought it was one of the least holy places I’ve ever been to in my life. There was no feeling of any kind of holiness there for me. I’m wondering if I’m alone in not liking all this stuff. When I occasionally pray, I address God directly. Even though I’ve drifted away from the faith, I still say the occasional prayer and I still let out an instinctive ‘‘Thanks be to God’’ every now and then, when I hear about something that went well, or if something has gone well for me. When I did Jury service, I had to option to make what they called an affirmation, but I chose instead to swear the oath on the new testament.
I’ve been advised to pray the Rosary to get my faith back. I can’t do that. I don’t like praying the Rosary. I don’t like, and have never liked, all the devotions to Mary I’ve been exposed to and forced to take part in as a young girl. Our house had, in fact still has, one picture of the Sacred Heart in the living room, and a statue or picture of Mary in every other room in the house. Even as a child I thought that was unbalanced. If God is the focus of our life and salvation, then that’s where we should be focused, on God, not Mary and not the Saints.
When I prayed all these prayers as a child, I remember feeling frustrated at times, because my prayers were to Mary and the Saints, and as we prayed together as a family twice a day, it used to drive me nuts because I didn’t want to be saying all these prayers, I wanted to be talking to God. Directly.
Am I the only one? Every Catholic I know and talk to, and there’s many starting with and extending from my own family, have such devotion to Mary and various Saints and it’s such a central and important part of their faith and prayer life. My mother and sisters go to their womens sodality meetings and third order meetings and are involved in so many things about Mary in the parish I can’t even keep track anymore.
I was just thinking, were I to ever find my faith again, it would be a very simple, bare faith. I’d go to mass, and pray to God directly. That’d be about the height of it. Why is there, and does there have to be, so much of all this stuff about Mary and the Saints? And am I the only one who just doesn’t have any interest in all these things, and would just want a simple, simple faith and conversation directly with God?
I know how important these things are for people, and I’m not disputing that, or that all these devotions to Mary and the Saints have a role to play. I’m wondering if there’s something wrong with me for not wanting, or being interested in, these prayers and devotions, even from a very young age?

Likes and dislikes are not matters of faith, rather living a Christlike life of charity towards God and others is, and to give our assent to the teachings of the Church, and follow the precepts. The sacraments are necessary.

 

[Phemie]

Here’s a couple of my favourite plain churches:

The abbey I’m associated with (St-Benoît-du-Lac in Quebec), designed by the Montreal architect Dan Hanganu and consecrated in 1994:

Quite plain and I’m sure hated by many who prefer gothic architecture.

The new cloister:

Too angular for my taste.

The original cloister:

Have to admit I like the original better than the new.

A Trappist chapel also in Quebec (Val Notre-Dame in St-Jean-de-Matha, Quebec; these are the former monks of Oka, just outside of Montreal):

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w312/OraLabora/EgliseVND.jpg

Along what axis is this laid out? The view is great but does the sun ever become a problem?

I see a man in a suit. Does that mean that if you attend a Liturgy of the Hour there you get to sit in choir with the monks?

 

[OraLabora]

Along what axis is this laid out? The view is great but does the sun ever become a problem?

East. I haven’t been yet (it’s a 3 hour drive and more or less in the middle of nowhere… might go for a retreat some time though) says that the outside view is actually a disctraction.

I see a man in a suit. Does that mean that if you attend a Liturgy of the Hour there you get to sit in choir with the monks?

I’m not sure about that abbey. At our own, Saint-Benoît-du-Lac, the laity don’t sit in choir for the LOTH. On the other hand, at Douai Abbey in the UK, which I visited last May, visitors do sit in choir with the monks for the LOTH and for weekday Mass (but not Sunday Mass).

At our own abbey though, when you see someone in choir in street clothes, it’s a postulant who has not yet taken the habit. We currently have one at the moment. Normally a prospect stays at the guest house and sits in the nave, for a while. Then if things go smoothly, he may be allowed to sit in choir with the monks and participate more closely in community life. Then if he becomes a postulant, he does sit in choir, even before he formally takes on the novice’s habit.

As for the angular architecture of our abbey, the church is usually quite full every Sunday. I think the Gregorian chant trumps the architecture for the local traditionalists

It’s a magnet for traditionalists in spite of being entirely Ordinary Form and using a post-Vatican II monastic breviary (and not the original breviary of St. Benedict adapted for post-Vatican II), largely because of the chant and the carefully executed liturgy, and the fact that locally there are no licit EF Masses within a reasonable driving distance.

I’m also not a “rosary guy”. I am very drawn however to the LOTH, and pray (and chant) the entire Office daily.

 

[Cat]

I hope the OP can see that there are other Catholics who share her feelings about clutter.

My suggestion is that the OP seek out other real-life Catholics who share her “bare bones” approach and stick with them!

And find a Catholic parish that has a simple architecture. Ours does–it’s all bricks. Many of the traditionalists hate it (one lady told me it makes her cry because it’s so ugly). But those of us who like simplicity like it a lot.

One more suggestion–I kind of agree with George Stegmeir that the OP needs to do some deeper studying about the Catholic Church. Yes, much of the decor is just that–decor, and is not necessary (although many enjoy it). But the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a Sacrament, and IS necessary, and a Catholic really can’t just eliminate this from their lives like they can eliminate statues with rolling eyes.

A good book that might help the OP is Scott Hahn’s Lord Have Mercy: The Healing Power of Confession. Dr. Hahn is a former Protestant (Presbyterian minister, and the Calvinists are known for austerity!), and he has a very readable perspective, as well as a lot of historical and theological information about the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I think that the OP would enjoy reading a lot of the newer books written by Protestant converts to Catholicism, and would learn a lot about Catholicism. I think a lot of the more ancient Catholic works would probably have the same effect on the OP as some of the ornate church buildings–the ancient and flowery language would be a turn-off.

I’m a Protestant convert, BTW. And I would like to say that I would love to meet the OP and others like them. During my early adult years, I was caught up in the “Simple Lifestyle” movement that swept across Evangelical Protestantism. I read Ron Sider’s Rich Christians in An Age of Hunger and was hooked on the idea of eliminating and simplifying. (The OP might enjoy this book, even though it was written by a Protestant, one who is still active in social gospel, BTW). I still use my Mennonite cookbook–the Mennonites wrote several excellent books back then on simple lifestyle.

So I identify with the OP about “bare Christianity.” I don’t mind the hoopla and statues and incense, but I have a real dislike of the ancient music and I really don’t care for Latin or any language other than my own. Many Catholics argue that we need to “return to all things Catholic,” and they’re talking about all the decorations, architecture, Latin, etc. I really can’t get excited about this, because to me, all these things are extras. I think if we returned to “true Catholicism,” we would be returning to a very, very simple religion.

I would be interested in whether the OP considers Gregorian chant “bare” enough. It’s about the barest music in existence–just a voice. (Just to be upfront here–I don’t like GC, although I recognize its historical significance to the Church and to music literature.)

This is an interesting topic, and I think the OP could conceivably work through all this and someday write a really good best-selling book called Bare Catholicism. I think a lot of people would find this very, very appealing. But again, we have to be careful that in our efforts to eliminate the unnecessary that we don’t eliminate the necessary. Also, we have to recognize and validate that many Catholics DO find all the “stuff” edifying and helpful to their faith.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

since people are posting pictures heres two more;

Gallarus Oratory possibly built 600ad - 700ad
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/ireland/gallarus-oratory-photos/slides/350d_200.jpg

Westminster Abbey 1254ad
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...or_.jpg/640px-Westminster_Abbey_Interior_.jpg

 

[murraymuzz]

You know, in the small amount of time I have been learning about the Catholic faith, I have come to know that no matter your preferences, the Church caters for all people, the only challenge is finding what suits your style of ‘being fed’ is.

I have found developing a strong prayer life to be a challenge, but perhaps a small thing you can do is ask the Holy Spirit to pray in your stead, and also try fasting maybe once a month on just bread and water for an entire day and you may find your self wanting to pray more and fast more often. Start with baby steps

With the saints and Mary, a general principal to apply is if you feel that you are being distracted from Jesus Christ by praying to them, then stop, and pray to Jesus only, have a chat with him, tell him whats on your mind. Mary and the Saints should be called on if we feel they can help nuture a deeper relationship with Christ. It can be hard to know if you are giving enough attention to Jesus Christ, but if you attend the mass regularlary, that is the greatest way any Catholic can worship Jesus Christ and come to really know him in the blessed sacrament, (“It would be easier for the world to survive without the sun than to do so without the Holy Mass.” – Padre Pio.)

So dont be anxious if you find your Catholic faith lacking, Mother Teresa found her faith lacking right up to the day she died, and this is an example of perserverance despite our own feelings.

I Suggest perhaps spending some time with Jesus in the blessed Sacrament and see if that brings about a change within. And remember the ultimate goal is for you to fall in love with Jesus, and Mary and the Saints only want to help you reach that point.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I think you were a victim of religious “overkill” as a child. To be serious, I can understand your reaction completely if that was what you were exposed to day after day, year after year, etc.

Strangely enough, I have seen this sort of “rebellion” in my father’s fundamentalist Protestant family. It might not have involved statues and rosaries, etc., but it did involve continuous Bible-quoting, and emphasis on things prohibited (no dancing, no movies, no card-playing, not his, no that), constant talk of hell and damnation, church twice on Sundays and on Wednesday nights-- you get the picture. This did not result in devout Christians, except for 1 or 2 out of 8, but it did result in rebellion, leaving the church, sinful lifestyle choices, and a lot of heartache. The means are different, the principal is the same. Too much of any thing is not good for people.

Now, I am not saying that one’s whole life shouldn’t be God-centered, it should be, but the relationship should be natural and spring from the heart, as a parent-child, or husband-wife relationship is. So if you felt overwhelmed by the constant sensory barrage of things so that somehow God got lost in the middle of it, I can understand why you would want to escape.

Try to keep your faith simple. Center on God, and He will lead you. Don’t force yourself into prayer or devotions that make you uncomfortable. Actually, IMO, the Church demands less of you than many of your fellow Catholics, so try to tune out the voices and listen to God. Focus on the Mass and the Sacraments (yes, they are important), and a simple but faithful prayer life. Reading Scripture is a wonderful devotion as it focuses on Christ and is the very Word of God. If you keep things simple and focus on Christ, you will be surprised at how you can grow spiritually.

I’m not saying not to say a Rosary or seek the intercession of the Saints, but if that causes anxiety, don’t do it–it is not necessary. Perhaps later when you have settled into God, you can explore these things. Let the Holy Spirit lead you.

 

[OraLabora]

I think you were a victim of religious “overkill” as a child. To be serious, I can understand your reaction completely if that was what you were exposed to day after day, year after year, etc.

Strangely enough, I have seen this sort of “rebellion” in my father’s fundamentalist Protestant family. It might not have involved statues and rosaries, etc., but it did involve continuous Bible-quoting, and emphasis on things prohibited (no dancing, no movies, no card-playing, not his, no that), constant talk of hell and damnation, church twice on Sundays and on Wednesday nights-- you get the picture. This did not result in devout Christians, except for 1 or 2 out of 8, but it did result in rebellion, leaving the church, sinful lifestyle choices, and a lot of heartache. The means are different, the principal is the same. Too much of any thing is not good for people.

Now, I am not saying that one’s whole life shouldn’t be God-centered, it should be, but the relationship should be natural and spring from the heart, as a parent-child, or husband-wife relationship is. So if you felt overwhelmed by the constant sensory barrage of things so that somehow God got lost in the middle of it, I can understand why you would want to escape.

Try to keep your faith simple. Center on God, and He will lead you. Don’t force yourself into prayer or devotions that make you uncomfortable. Actually, IMO, the Church demands less of you than many of your fellow Catholics, so try to tune out the voices and listen to God. Focus on the Mass and the Sacraments (yes, they are important), and a simple but faithful prayer life. Reading Scripture is a wonderful devotion as it focuses on Christ and is the very Word of God. If you keep things simple and focus on Christ, you will be surprised at how you can grow spiritually.

I’m not saying not to say a Rosary or seek the intercession of the Saints, but if that causes anxiety, don’t do it–it is not necessary. Perhaps later when you have settled into God, you can explore these things. Let the Holy Spirit lead you.

Sound advice. This is why I’m attracted to the Benedictines who believe in balance and moderation in all aspects of life, be it prayer, work, or recreation.

 

[oremus]

I’m pretty bare bones about my faith also. I have a crucifix at home on the wall, and that’s about it. But then, I also don’t have secular junk on the walls or knickknacks about the house either. I would like to have one plain statue of Mary if I can find one. As far as my faith life, it’s Mass and the sacraments, LOTH, scripture reading (lectio divina), adoration. I will pray the rosary with others if the opportunity presents itself but prefer the psalms. I prefer chant over other hymns. My ideal church would be plain stone, such as Cistercian architecture.

I do think you should study the reasoning behind Catholic doctrine, so you understand why the Church teaches what it does, especially on confession, the dogma of the Assumption, etc., whatever is giving you trouble with the understanding.

 

[HouseArrest]

They might be. I just don’t see the point in asking for anything except through God. You give thanks to God for your life and privilages, and you ask God for what you need. I don’t think God would hold back something I needed, and he decided to give me, just because I didn’t ask for it through a saint would He? I don’t think so.

You’re a great candidate for Adoration. Why don’t you start there instead of the Rosary? It’s just you and the Lord.

 

[PRmerger]

They might be. I just don’t see the point in asking for anything except through God. You give thanks to God for your life and privilages, and you ask God for what you need. I don’t think God would hold back something I needed, and he decided to give me, just because I didn’t ask for it through a saint would He? I don’t think so.

He does hold back, just as he holds back giving you food on your plate unless you work to get it.

You need to do your work through prayer in order to get what you need spiritually.

As Catholic mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal said, “God gives us the dignity of causality.”

“God instituted prayer to communicate to his creatures the dignity of causality.” If you say that we should not pray because God already knows our needs, then you must say that we should not farm or eat or read for the same reason. God lets us really cause events and really lets us make a difference not only by physical work but also by spiritual work."–Peter Kreeft, The God Who Loves Us

 

[Phemie]

And find a Catholic parish that has a simple architecture. Ours does–it’s all bricks. Many of the traditionalists hate it (one lady told me it makes her cry because it’s so ugly). But those of us who like simplicity like it a lot.

That shouldn’t be a determining factor to pick a parish since the architecture might not match the worship.

The OP might like the architecture: our church is a simple steel building that looks like a hangar from the outside, the short steeple is the only thing that gives it away as a church. The inside is plain, only 2 statues. But I’ve spent several years with my eyes closed at Mass, not because of the building but because of what was happening in the sanctuary. If I didn’t see it I didn’t have to get upset. I had no choice, ours is the only parish and I had no say in who our pastor was. Since August I’ve had my eyes open again.

But it’s the parishioners who make a parish, not the church building. If you are a family you make do with your home and you live through the various Pastors, knowing that you go there to worship God, and you keep each other strong in the faith.

 

[mathematoons]

He does hold back, just as he holds back giving you food on your plate unless you work to get it.

You need to do your work through prayer in order to get what you need spiritually.

As Catholic mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal said, “God gives us the dignity of causality.”

“God instituted prayer to communicate to his creatures the dignity of causality.” If you say that we should not pray because God already knows our needs, then you must say that we should not farm or eat or read for the same reason. God lets us really cause events and really lets us make a difference not only by physical work but also by spiritual work."–Peter Kreeft, The God Who Loves Us

That doesn’t prove that we need to go through a saint.

 

[PRmerger]

That doesn’t prove that we need to go through a saint.

Oh, right.

That wasn’t meant to provide apologia for praying to saints.

You don’t have to do that, ever.

But then again, you ought not ever ask to have your name/intention be put on a prayer list, or ask any of your friends to pray for you should you be going into surgery, travelling, awaiting biopsy results, etc etc etc.

 

[englishredrose]

Being Anglican I can’t answer how bare is your Catholicism

But I feel I am in a related position in that I knew that I found worded prayer virtually impossible so did not do and thought that was that and occassionally asked priests along the way and got a step nearer every time I did ask a priest. This last year I was given the perfect prayer for me because it didn’t need words, it didn’t need statues and rituals and everything and I do wonder if I am the only Anglican that just does this. I sometimes struggle with the service but that is where I am at that day. I had a proper chat with the priest and he really guided me into the prayer I do now that don’t need anything other than simply being with God. I can do that so easily at times. It really is perfect for me. I don’t ask God for anything because I can’t do that, I don’t access God that way. But by just being in His Presence that is enough. So if I can keep prayer simple and just enjoy His presence, that is all I need from God, His presence/love…

I’ve not read the other posts so dont quite know if this is in line with the conversation. But for me simplicity is in our hearts not what is around us. Some find simplicity in rules and I do to an extent. But words and prayer don’t mix for me so too, if I was Catholic, I would have a very hard time with rosaries and HM’s etc. Being Anglican and not a very good Anglican meant that prayer basically didn’t really feature in my life until this priest came along and helped me out and made God accessible for me. Even though I been going to church 25 years ish.

I would say, start by chatting to the priest give him a ring and explain what you have done here. People are saying go there and do this but not really paying much attention to what you first said about it all. Chat to the priest and really say what you said here and He will guide you through and help you find your way with Prayer that means something to you. He may give you atypical set prayers but explain to him, in a friendly way that they don’t do anything for you, if that is true. I don’t know what words I used in the end to my priest but I now can do the prayer that is perfect for me and it is about finding your style just like fashion per se. You find what works for you and a good priest will guide you and some times it mayn’t work, but go back to him and keep going back to him until you find something between you as such. Explain everything to him and hopefully you will find your prayer style.