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Burdensome1
Guest
Sigh. Wrong. And ignorant. Fail.
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Theflipside
Guest
My mistake. Possibly ignorant, but it’s unintentional. In my personal experience that is the method the church takes when dealing with annulment.
Could you please clarify?
EDIT: Ok. Definitely ignorant, though still unintentional.
Could you please clarify?
EDIT: Ok. Definitely ignorant, though still unintentional.
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Burdensome1
Guest
SO don’t post without thinking or spending 5 minutes on Google. How hard is that anyway?
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Theflipside
Guest
My own personal experience with this is what led me to this. It is something that has drastically effected my family. Sorry for not looking up something I was under the impression I already knew.
Thank you for answering my question as well.
Thank you for answering my question as well.
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Burdensome1
Guest
no problem here.
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Gorgias
Guest
Just to clarify – you’re saying that, in your family, a divorce led to the Church rejecting children? That is, the Church itself, or its priests? Or maybe, is it just that individuals who did not understand what an annulment is, make bad judgments and take improper actions?
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bilop
Guest
Yes it can.
If one of the spouses intends never to have children at the time of the marriage, the marriage is invalid and null. If they later have a conversion, and become open to life, the marriage becomes valid.
If you have six kids, you can’t get a decree of nullity based on not being open to life, even if that was true at the time of the wedding.
God Bless
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bilop
Guest
Completely wrong. A decree of nullity does not affect the legitimacy of the children.
In any case, under modern Canon Law (1983) there are no canonical penalties or restrictions based on illegitimacy.
God Bless
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Godfollower
Guest
Would you mind posting a source for this? I’ve never seen anything to support the idea that two putative spouses who did not validly marry somehow become retroactively married if they later find God.
If you are Christian, then either you celebrated the Sacrament of Matrimony validly or you did not. If you are not Christian, then either you performed a valid wedding ceremony or you did not. As far as I know, there is no “Well, we changed our minds, so now it’s valid even though it didn’t used to be.”
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Aramis
Guest
That still wouldn’t confer a valid marriage as sacrament.
Without being trite, it’s not so simple.
I could probably obtain a decree of nullity if I wanted one - I had no idea my wife had apostatized at the time. In fact, I’d probably have had a much easier time of it if I’d divorced her when I found out… religion has been the biggest thorn in out putative marriage for 17, almost 18, years.
But, until the need arises, I’d rather not know for certain. I’m not leaving. And if she does, well, that’s life. I simply keep praying she comes back to Christianity.
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Evan
Guest
Someone wrote that they had never heard of an annulment request being refused. I think this is because the pain this causes.
I have a friend who divorced and remarried. He applied to have his first marriage annulled. It was found that that first marriage was valid. So…
He now comes to mass every Sunday and many days during the week.
He is waiting:
If his (first) wife dies, he would be free to have his marriage blessed by the Church
If his (state sanctioned) wife dies, he could go to confession and be readmitted to communion.
As it stands, he is living in the state of adultery with no intention of changing. Thus he cannot go to confession. Since he cannot be absolved, he cannot go to communion.
Hurtful to him, and he has 3 choices.
I have a friend who divorced and remarried. He applied to have his first marriage annulled. It was found that that first marriage was valid. So…
He now comes to mass every Sunday and many days during the week.
He is waiting:
If his (first) wife dies, he would be free to have his marriage blessed by the Church
If his (state sanctioned) wife dies, he could go to confession and be readmitted to communion.
As it stands, he is living in the state of adultery with no intention of changing. Thus he cannot go to confession. Since he cannot be absolved, he cannot go to communion.
Hurtful to him, and he has 3 choices.
- leave things as they are
- live as brother and sister with the woman in his house
- divorce the woman he is living with
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JerryZ
Guest
Totally uncalled for, the Church neither reject nor calls the children “bastarts” they continue to be very legitimate children of their mother and father.
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silicasandra
Guest
How sad. For his sake (although this may be strange to say), I hope he lives long enough to experience a return to the sacraments.
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
He has more than three choices.
- apply until he obtains a favorable ruling
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Brendan
Guest
And the other spouse can always appeal to Rome, which rarely grants an annulment.
It might take awhile, but the annulment is never finalized while an appeal is in process.
Here is a pretty high profile example
reuters.com/article/2007/06/21/us-usa-kennedy-annulment-idUSN2143096420070621
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His_helpmeet
Guest
My husband recently went through the annulment process. (He and his ex were married for 4 years, with one child. She walked out on him and told him that as far as she was concerned, the vows she took were purely ceremonial, they were just symbolic and didn’t really mean anything, and if she wasn’t happy she was free to walk away. Lovely.) I’ve done a fair amount of reading which has helped me through the process. To answer some common questions:
- A true sacramental marriage, in which both parties were baptized and there is evidence that the marriage was valid, cannot be dissolved.
- A NATURAL (non-sacramental marriage) may be dissolved by the Petrine or Pauline privileges in specific situations: the Pauline privilege is used to dissolve a natural marriage in a situation where BOTH parties were non-baptized at the time of the marriage, one party becomes baptized (or intends to) after the marriage, and the marriage falls apart due to the actions of the non-baptized person. The bishop can grant this privilege. The Petrine privilege is used to dissolve a marriage when one party (not both) was baptized at the time of the marriage, the other party has not been baptized at any point during the marriage, and the marriage ended through no fault of the baptized party. This is also called the “Favour of the Faith”; it is granted by the Pope.
- As other posters have stated, the situation is HEAVILY weighted towards the marriage being valid. However, the investigation requires substantial information that suggests the marriage was not valid.
- Annulment process: In Canada, you have to have a finalized divorce before you can commence annulment proceedings (you have to present a copy of the divorce certificate). Then, you have to complete a preliminary investigation form, in which you are asked questions about your courtship, your wedding, whether there was evidence of infidelity, when the problems began in the marriage, what the problems were and what caused them, if you separated temporarily, when that occurred, why you got back together, your attitude towards having children, etc. The priest also has to complete a form as to his understanding of your character and his knowledge of your marriage problems. You have to provide the names and contact information of 3 witnesses, preferably people who knew you at the time of your wedding. You also have to provide contact info for your ex, as they have the right to be contacted and participate. (Whether or not they participate is up to them; they have the right to say no and the case can proceed without them. My husband’s ex refused to participate and he still got the marriage declared null.) Once the forms get sent off, the Tribunal reviews the prelim forms and decides whether there’s enough there to justify an investigation. If there is, they send you a letter indicating who you need to get in touch with to proceed. (In my husband’s case, our parish priest handled the interviews.) You have to come in for a more in-depth interview in which you are asked questions, under oath, about your marriage. Your ex-spouse (if he/she participates) and your witnesses also have to come in for interviews, at a separate time. The Tribunal can also ask for additional evidence, such as police reports, reports from counselling, doctor’s notes, etc. A Defender of the Bond on the Tribunal staff goes over the case and looks for any reason why the marriage should be declared valid. The priest-judge who’s in charge may ask for briefs written by the Defender of the Bond, or the Advocate (there is an Advocate for you, and one for your ex-spouse if he/she participates). After all the evidence is in, the Tribunal issues a decree and you’re given an opportunity to come in and review the evidence. At this point,you can also add any evidence that you think is lacking. Your ex-spouse receives the same opportunity. Finally, the case is examined by the Tribunal judges and they make a decision. You get a letter informing you of the decision. If the decision is affirmative (i.e. marriage NOT valid) they will automatically appeal it to the Appeals Tribunal. All you have to do is wait; the Appeals Tribunal may/may not ask for more evidence. Once the Appeals Tribunal gives an affirmative decision, you are free to marry. You’ll get a letter to this effect. If the decision from the Regional Tribunal OR the Appeals Tribunal is negative (i.e. marriage VALID), you have the option to appeal. The highest Tribunal level is Rome. You must have two affirmative decisions for your marriage to be declared null. ONLY the former spouses are eligible to ask for their marriage to be studied. Marriages are considered VALID until proven otherwise. The whole process takes an average of 18-24 months; this is partly because of the number of cases but also to give the couple ample opportunity to examine their decision. It’s not common, but it does happen that people will decide that they’ve made a mistake and want to reconcile.
- From what I understand, it is difficult, but not impossible, for you to get an annulment after a lengthy marriage. I think the primary question is, if there was something fundamentally “missing” from your marriage, why were you together for that long? I can understand if it was “because of the kids”, but again, the question becomes, why did you decide to have kids at all if you KNEW there was something missing from your marriage? I know you were not married in the Catholic Church, but if you had been, the Church would effectively have to turn around and say that despite the marriage preparation course and the premarital interviews that you had to do to look for ANY impediments, they dropped the ball somewhere and made a terrible mistake.
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johnnyjones
Guest
Youth (relating to mentality) and age play a role. Further questions will be asked of you by clergy. You may not be able to get an annulment, I don’t know. One obvious reason to get one is remarriage in the church. If that is not a concern, you may need to consider the necessity of it.
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3xblessed
Guest
I got notification that people responded to this thread again, so I thought I would come back and update. I’m very happy to report that my husband and I have worked things out and we are no longer considering divorce.
I’m still not totally sure I understand the teachings of the Church on this subject, but it looks unlikely it will be an issue for me personally, all thanks to God.
I’m still not totally sure I understand the teachings of the Church on this subject, but it looks unlikely it will be an issue for me personally, all thanks to God.
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Joe_5859
Guest
That is wonderful news! I am glad that you two were able to work things out. I will say another prayer for you.
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