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april32010
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what?
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april32010
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no,it isn’t
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CaliLobo
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Murder is a much different word from kill. As you know, there are times when killing is sanctioned in human society.
Through medical advances abortions can be made safer than ever, negating the “Temple” argument. Also, “Be fruitful and multiply” was a command given to non-human species.
You’re opposing abortion on moral grounds. Does the visual grotesqueness of something affect its morality? No, so it’s irrelevant. This is just a pro-life scare tactic, and it’s offensive.
As it stands today, fetuses don’t have rights. You might not like it, but that’s just the way it is, and the law is settled on the issue. The 14th Amendment begins, “All persons born in the United States…” Therefore, one has to be born to have rights.
And because the Holy Spirit has compelled me to have compassion for women, my desire not to have them be victims of unwanted pregnancies, the rights of women already alive take precedence over the rights of the unborn.
I just can’t imagine Jesus telling women that they have to suffer from unwanted pregnancy and child-rearing. I just can’t imagine Jesus blocking human rights.
Regarding the “temple” argument, abortion can be made safer through medical advances. And if you really care about Temple of the Holy Spirit, why don’t I see Catholics on the forefront of veganism, nutritional labeling, tobacco and alcohol prohibition, and public health and safety legislation?
Finally, considering the historical context, it’s doubtful that Jesus was referring to the unborn in this verse.
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Rete
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The Holy Spirit most certainly does not compel you to murder babies in their wombs. Abortion is killing a child whom God loves and whose life remains precious to Him. That life does not belong to you.
I think the moment you start straying into this antebellum pro-slavery type of rhetoric, you ought to possess the wherewithal to realize there is something drastically wrong with your assumptions. When you reduce a human life to your “choice”, and claim the body and life of another person as your property to kill on a whim for your own convenience, then you have enslaved that human being. A woman who does this enslaves her own child and God forbid she take the life of her own baby.
And now this one… I just don’t know what to make of this. The idea that the Holy Spirit – GOD – is telling you that it is okay to murder the most innocent and precious lives in our world… I really don’t know what to say other than to point out that, if you truly do have these feelings, then it’s definitely not the Holy Spirit who tells you this. Beware of the source.
The Holy Spirit will never tell you sin against Himself. He loves you just as much as he loves the unborn. Your soul is far too precious to be wasted on this evil political nonsense. One can only plead with you to avoid this kind of evil, but I think if you honestly seek the Holy Spirit for guidance, and abandon your own corrupted will in order to listen (this problem of will and pride afflicts us all), then you will find that He adamantly does not permit you to support or facilitate abortion. Human life is infinitely precious to Him.
Take care. I will pray for you. I do truly hope with all my heart that the Holy Spirit Himself will guide you to the Catholic Church and assist you in forming your conscience. God love you.
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Evania
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You’re trying to rationalize murder. You seriously are trying to tell me that murder is a much different word than kill? It may be a different “word”, but it has the same meaning. Killing may be sanctioned in society, but who necessarily says that it’s right to take the life of another?
In regards to your second point, are you able to prove that the command “be fruitful and multiply” was given to a sub-human species? Also that is irrelevant to the topic at hand because God was speaking in the context of marriage.
You’re right that the pictures of abortion doesn’t affect the morality of the issue, but the very issue of taking an innocent life does! As for it being a pro-life scare tactic, that notion is laughable at best, considering that we’re merely showing the truth of what is happening. As someone who is pro-choice, I’m sure you would want the TRUTH to be shown that the baby is not merely a lifeless blob. I’m sure you would want the TRUTH of what is actually happening in abortion centers shown. If it’s offensive to you, maybe that’s because you would prefer the woman to make an uninformed choice without her having access to an ultrasound or any visual of her child being an actual human being.
As for your statement of that “fetuses” don’t have rights. What’s your point? There was a lot of things that were legal once, and that didn’t make it right. If you lived in the 1850’s, would your argument be that “Blacks don’t have rights. You may not like it, but that’s just the way it is.”? Just because something is legal does not make it just, nor does it mean that it has God’s stamp of approval on it.
And since The Holy Spirit has “compelled” you to have compassion on women, maybe you can share some of that compassion to some of our unborn women in the womb? Or are they exempt from your compassion? If it was from God, it would extend to everyone.
One final thing: A baby is not a punishment. It isn’t a death sentence for the mother. A pregnancy lasts 9 months and it’s over. I know that the abortion business likes to push that down our throats, but at the end of the day abortion brings in good money, and it isn’t about the women at all. If she really doesn’t want the baby, give it to someone else and everybody wins! A baby isn’t killed, and hopefully she’ll practice safer sex next time, or better yet save herself for marriage. Oh and if you really want to show compassion for women? How about helping counsel the post-abortion women who feel duped by all the pro-choice lies and regret their uninformed choice that was pushed on them by those who capitalized and made money in their moment of vulnerability? Does your compassion extend to the women who have been left infertile by the act of abortion? Does your compassion extend to the poor woman who died a few months ago from internal bleeding after undergoing an abortion? Please tell me WHY if abortionists “love” women so much, was 911 not called inmediately? if she got care, she would have survived!!! How about the women who leave clinics for the hospital in ambulances? Does your care extend to the women who have hemmoraged after taking the morning after pill? Why don’t you counsel them too? They weren’t told that could be a side effect! Please get off your pro-woman platform. Abortion hurts women. We’re there for them when their world comes crashing down afterwards.
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Spudbynight
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Nothing in the Bible that call for banning abortion? How about thou shalt not kill?
I detest the use of the term “pro-choice”. This is nothing about choice. One is either pro-abortion or anti-abortion. There is no middle ground.
One either believes it is morally acceptable to kill the unborn or it isn’t. If one starts to equivocate in any way then one has denied the right to life of the unborn.
The original question was how can a Catholic be “pro-choice”[sic]? They can’t. It is fundamentally incompatible with the faith.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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ephesians4
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There are indeed reasons, one might abort a child if through doing so, one person might live where two would otherwise certainly die, you might avoid orphaning other children etc. - let’s not go down that road though, it is not oversimplification of other people’s moral decisions I seek here.
For any reason that amounts to “living how you choose” or “freedom from consequences”? No. there is no “morally adjustable” reason for convenience murder.
I was nearly aborted so somebody could have a “nicer life”, that is, murdered in the manner you are currently rationalizing.
I and my offspring would not now exist. I can assure you I am now, as I was then, a human being.
I’m not telling you this to introduce personal emotion to the conversation, I just want you to know the fully formed human being, parent etc. you see conversing with you now is what each single one of those abortions are - a human being like you and I. That is the gravity of what you are talking about.
I reserve the right as a human being to consider that killing me to avoid personal unpleasantness would in fact have been murder.
As it is in every case where that is done. It seems horrible, but each one of those is a murder, and you are hiding that from yourself behind a very thin veil.
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davidn87
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My point was unless you’re deaf, dumb and blind, then you know what might happen if you have sex.what?
One of the first scenes in a movie that glorifies Margaret Sanger as a hero for women (Choices Of The Heart) features a woman who got pregnant, but couldn’t really afford to raise another child and resorted to the mythical ‘back alley’ option. Sanger got all upset and decided to champion contraception. As usual, abstinence didn’t get a look in…but then the movie was grounded in fantasy, didn’t present the facts at all so whether that scene actually happened or not, we’ll never know.
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davidn87
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Indeed, it’s quite popular in Belgium amongst adults, and soon kids can join in too!
Eh? What? Huh?
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.
If they were a non-human species, and they’re our ancestors, then what are we???
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bzkoss236
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Technically, you are right, because murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a person, and since abortion is currently legal, it isn’t murder, but it should be, because I’m sure that it is in God’s eyes.
Abortion will never be safe as long as half of those involved die.
Also, you don’t know your bible
Gen 1:27-28 said:
It is relevant
Maybe not legally on earth, but Christians are to believe that every human life is sacred, and when you kill, you are destroying a sacred creature created by God that was born to fulfill His will. And by killing the child, you are opposing His will.
And then there’s this:
2 Cor 12:7-10 said:
God can use our suffering to strengthen us, to draw us closer to Him. So Christ wouldn’t kill the fetus for the woman. If anything, He would make giving birth easier, and then allow her to send the baby away to be taken care of by another.
In abortions, the baby is innocent of any crime, and should not be punished as if it were. Unwanted pregnancies are the fault of the man and woman who had intercourse, and in cases of rape (of the woman), the man is at fault, but that baby is still innocent. How do you feel when someone gets punished for the crimes of another? Do you think it’s fair? Do you think it is okay to put someone behind bars, or kill them, when they are innocent of the crimes they are convicted of?
As I said before, as long as someone dies, abortion cannot be considered safe. When something is considered safe, it means that none involved die. When is a medical drug considered safe? When those involved in the trials don’t die. Abortion will never be “safe”.
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ephesians4
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This same point would have applied to the victims of the holocaust, the millions killed by communism, and black slaves in the United States in their respective legal environments.
As it happens even ignoring what the current law may be, the moral justification for the holocaust, slavery etc. was “we do not consider them to be human beings”, so I will be requiring some other reason to be convinced that it’s alright.
Respectfully, I think everybody should reject we do not consider them to be human as moral justification for anything that would otherwise be murder, etc…
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Evania
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Excellent point!
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Brendan_64
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But it’s not about the woman, it’s about someone else’s life, a poor, defenceless, innocent child. It’s not about not judging the woman either. We shouldn’t judge any sinner, but that doesn’t mean we should legally permit the sin. Would we permit murder because it’s not our place to judge the sinner?
Legalised abortion is legalised killing of innocent children. Nobody should have the right to do that.
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Offdoodykcrn
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I am also pro-choice, and I am Christian - for the same reasons you discussed. I personally would hope that any woman facing this decision - for what ever reason: rape, incest, health issues of mother or child, age, socio-economic status - would have all the information provided in a supportive, non-biased environment. I hope they choose to have the baby and give it up for adoption if they cannot raise the child themselves. I pray for all people to have the love and support they need in order to get through this life, but the sad fact is, not everybody has this.
I view abortion much like I view prostitution. Regardless of the law - it’s going to happen. We know this because it’s been happening for thousands of years, in almost every culture. A woman that chooses prostitution as an educated adult, of her own free will - without a drug/alcohol habit or mental illness clouding her judgement - is rare, but it happens - the evidence is in Nevada. I support the legalization of prostitution because in areas where it is legal, regulated and taxed, women are far less likely to be abused by customers or a ‘pimp’. That does not mean I would choose to join ‘the worlds oldest profession’. I simply support the right of other people to choose the kind of life they want for themselves - as long as they are not harming anyone else. Some people vehemently oppose this idea. My response to that is there would be no prostitutes if they had no customers. If every man decided they would only have consensual sex with their wives, we would have no prostitution or rape. I would support legislation to support that, but I find it highly unlikely.
If abortion is going to happen regardless of the law, then I want it to be safe, legal and rare. If you are against abortion, don’t have one. If you are a man and don’t want other people to have an abortion, do everything you can to educate others about the alternatives. I wonder what would happen if, instead of protesting outside of clinics - women were offered an incentive (like a college education or vocational training) to have the baby and give it up for adoption. One might argue that women might try to get pregnant in order to receive whatever incentive was offered. That is possible, but with appropriate education of exactly what happens to a woman’s body during pregnancy and attendance of a natural childbirth would likely curb this behavior. I will never forget the look on my friend’s face when she learned the definition of ‘episiotomy’. Now that I think about it - both of her kids are adopted…
Peace and prosperity to all.
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mark_a
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Most of the non-Catholic and a good number of Catholic Christians I know are pro-choice.
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Slaney
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Abortions made safer than ever
what kind of twisted logic is this ? oh it’s a bit like asking a person on death row, " errr would you like the needle,the chair, the rope, whichever is safer it’s your choice " ? A CHILD DIES AT THE END OF IT, abortions made safer, OMG ! 
Yeah the Holy Spirit would really do this ? it’s the great adversary of God that has blinded you with your twisted sick thinking…that would be satan and his minions…
Well keep on imagining, because you imagine wrong, Jesus would never agree to the termination of a childs life.
Hardly on the same level as murdering children…
You call yourself Christian seeker…
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Slaney
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Yes I hope they’re so safe the child is allowed to be born ! I don’t know how anyone supporting abortion isn’t purchasing a one-way ticket to hell for this un-repented sin !
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Evania
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I wonder how they rationalize why God sent that child in the first place…Only to be sent back? I happen to think that God has a purpose for the child He sent. Yes, He works within our free will and natural laws, but I’m convinced that He has a purpose for that child. God’s vision looks beyond the temporary hardships of a pregnancy into the impact and purpose this person will have in the future. God doesn’t say, “Oops! I accidentally implanted a mistake in this womb.”
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CaliLobo
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Yes, “kill” is a very different word from “murder”. We kill animals for food. We fight wars–heck, God personally killed his enemies in the OT. Police can shoot suspects if they are in danger of being killed. The Catholic Church killed nonbelievers in the Inquisition.
Therefore, “thou shalt not kill” isn’t enough of a Bible verse to justify banning abortion.
This is a very one-sided view of what abortion really is. I personally know women who have gone through abortion. It was very safe for them, they do not regret it, and their lives are better for it.
If abortion was that unsafe, why do most unmarried women support it? Are they that stupid? All pro-choicers believe that abortion should be made SAFE, and technology is helping with that.
Yes, there are risks. But abortion is a decision taken after much thought and consideration. We are all adults.
Yes, pregnancy is a punishment. Because sadly, men have refused to take the lead and be fathers, women are saddled with the pregnancy and childrearing work. Do you know the economic cost of childrearing? How about $435030 to $1.6 million, according to the NY Times?
bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/13/the-cost-in-dollars-of-raising-a-child/
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CaliLobo
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Come on, safe for the WOMAN, okay?? Let’s not be so square here.
There are many articles showing that this verse doesn’t just mean to multiply numerically. Here’s one: catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2266
Also, how do you reconcile this with Peter’s declaration that “it is better for a man not to marry”?
Everyone keeps calling abortion murder. Murder murder murder. That’s a very one-sided view of what abortion is.
Abortion is an understanding that the world is overpopulated and resources are being depleted, and that women are the primary victims of unwanted pregnancies (which are usually a result of sin anyway). And rather than have the woman suffer from poverty from childrearing, and have the child suffer from a flawed foster system or parents that aren’t ready, it is better to make the tough decision to terminate this pregnancy for the benefit of the woman and society.
It is an understanding that family planning is essential in modern society, and women are capable of intelligent choices. It is a tough decision but one that is made with much consideration.
And this is tough, but** the baby does not get to control of consequences of his or her birth**. I wish I could’ve been born to taller, more athletic parents so I could be the jock or Marine that gets all the girls. But that’s not my choice, eh?
Is it really glorifying to God to just let society raise millions of babies that it isn’t ready for, and let women suffer in poverty from it?
The Holocaust and slavery argument is not analogous, because in those cases, we are referring to people already born. Again, one must be born to have rights in the USA. Furthermore, from a scientific perspective, a fetus is a parasite. Why? Because the woman’s health is being compromised during pregnancy by the growth of the fetus. Look at any pregnant animal and this is evident. There are studies showing that male babies are weaker at birth because the female body attacks the XY chromosomes as foreign bodies.
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