How can a Christian be pro choice ??

[Evania]

Helena, enough is enough. This isn’t rocket science. Abortion is murder. It is contrary to God’s laws. I don’t think anyone puts much credit in the few quotes that you found that are spewed by prominent abortion proponents to discredit the Church. It boils down to this: If you do not follow Christ, it makes no sense to call yourself a Christian. Period. That’s great if you want to be a Christian! However, the first step would be to align yourself with God’s Word, and follow from there.

God Bless

 

[Rence]

Has anyone ever met a pro choice Christian I did recently an episcopal priest when I heard them talk it seemed so strange to hear about how they love christ and the about how they are for abortion rights. The only pro choice people I have ever met where athiest it seemed so strange. Has anyone ever met pro abortion “Christians” before

Of course. Most people consider themselves pro-life if they only allow it special cases, such as rape or when the woman’s health is at risk, or the usage of birth control (a lot of people here on this forum count birth control as abortion). By the standards of this forum then, I don’t know anyone in real life off these forums who isn’t pro-choice. And I don’t know anyone in real life who wants it totally illegal and without access to it in those circumstances.

 

[Rence]

Do you suppose your great-grandmother was aware of what could happen if she had sex, ie pregnancy?

I’m not sure about where you live, but most people around here don’t think married people have to limit sex to one or two times a month…they just use birth control.

 

[CMatt25]

Of course. Most people consider themselves pro-life if they only allow it special cases, such as rape or when the woman’s health is at risk, or the usage of birth control (a lot of people here on this forum count birth control as abortion). By the standards of this forum then, I don’t know anyone in real life off these forums who isn’t pro-choice. And I don’t know anyone in real life who wants it totally illegal and without access to it in those circumstances.

 

[CMatt25]

I know scores of pro-choice Catholics. Some of whom are well respected in their parishes and considered highly religious. Some of these pro-choice Catholics even wear clerical collars or habits. I happen to be of the opinion that there is, in some circumstances, a greater evil in forcing a pregnancy upon someone than in terminating one.

They were probably made members of the Church by their Baptism with an indelible character placed upon their souls. This according to a bishop I asked long ago, gave me the Catholic Church’s answer that this still allows them to rightfully be called Catholics.

 

[Evania]

You do know that birth control is against Church teaching right?

 

[Helena_K]

I’m going to charitably assume that you’re merely misinformed rather than deliberately posting such despicable lies.
.

I am giving up. You people are just too hateful. I am NOT posting lies, nor am I endorsing abortion or claiming it is not murder. I am also not claiming that the Church has ever had any other position other than abortion is sin.

My ONLY point has always been only, "typically, pro choice includes people who think abortion is not murder and should not be illegal…even if they personally think it is a sin. Some very prominant Catholics in the past have held this position, that abortion is nor murder and should not be illegal. Does that make them true Catholics, or not?

I absolutely agree that these past opinions must be viewed in their historical context…that is, people simply did not fully understand the process of conception and reproduction. I for one agree with you that if these various saints or popes lived with a modern understanding of conception and reproduction, they would very likely have very different opinions on the matter!

You are very wrong to call me a liar, and you owe me an apology.

Honestly, I am very shocked at how hateful the responses to my posts have been. My entire goal has been to been more charitable and non judgemental of past Catholics who simply did not have full understanding of reproductive matters, and to not judge, for instance, St. Augustine for a scientific ignorance he could not help.

The question posed by the OP was “how can someone be a Christian and still be pro choice.” My entire point was that it is possible to think abortion is not murder and should be legal and still be a good Christian, and this can be demonstrated by past Catholics who are very highly regarded but would technically be “pro choice,” and I don’t think this makes them magically not Catholic. I do also think that, if they were to have existed in the modern time with modern access to reproductive knowledge**, these people would be unlikely to hold these same opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that, in the past, with limited knowledge, their opinion was what one would call “pro choice.”

Yet the response from people like you has been vitriol and calling me a disgusting liar, even though you are incapable of telling me where exactly I am a liar.

I can’t help but come to the conclusion that your anti-abortion stancce isn’t actually about compassion towards the unborn, but rather the enjoyment you get by judging and condemning people.

If you were actually caring and charitable as you claim to be, you would not call me a disgusting liar (which is itself a lie), and you wouldn’t keep trying to paint me as someone who is trying to use past comments by Catholics to justify abortion today. You would just say, simply, “Yes, I agree with you and still consider St. Augustine a Catholic, because his statements have to be taken in context of the historical time he lived in and the limited knowledge he had available to him.”

I am done with this conversation. It is clear that people here are not interested in listening to what I have to say. They just are so eager to hate and condemn they spend their time condemning me for arguments I’m not even trying to make.

Very sad, very disappointing.

 

[CMatt25]

You do know that birth control is against Church teaching right?

So your point is what? That if as Rence said in the real world most people practice some form of birth control, that by far the vast majority of Catholics don’t follow every teaching?

 

[CMatt25]

I am giving up. You people are just too hateful. I am NOT posting lies, nor am I endorsing abortion or claiming it is not murder. I am also not claiming that the Church has ever had any other position other than abortion is sin.

My ONLY point has always been only, "typically, pro choice includes people who think abortion is not murder and should not be illegal…even if they personally think it is a sin. Some very prominant Catholics in the past have held this position, that abortion is nor murder and should not be illegal. Does that make them true Catholics, or not?

I absolutely agree that these past opinions must be viewed in their historical context…that is, people simply did not fully understand the process of conception and reproduction. I for one agree with you that if these various saints or popes lived with a modern understanding of conception and reproduction, they would very likely have very different opinions on the matter!

You are very wrong to call me a liar, and you owe me an apology.

Honestly, I am very shocked at how hateful the responses to my posts have been. My entire goal has been to been more charitable and non judgemental of past Catholics who simply did not have full understanding of reproductive matters, and to not judge, for instance, St. Augustine for a scientific ignorance he could not help.

The question posed by the OP was “how can someone be a Christian and still be pro choice.” My entire point was that it is possible to think abortion is not murder and should be legal and still be a good Christian, and this can be demonstrated by past Catholics who are very highly regarded but would technically be “pro choice,” and I don’t think this makes them magically not Catholic. I do also think that, if they were to have existed in the modern time with modern access to reproductive knowledge**, these people would be unlikely to hold these same opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that, in the past, with limited knowledge, their opinion was what one would call “pro choice.”

Yet the response from people like you has been vitriol and calling me a disgusting liar, even though you are incapable of telling me where exactly I am a liar.

I can’t help but come to the conclusion that your hatred of abortion isn’t actually about compassion towards the unborn, but rather the enjoyment you get by judging and condemning people.

Helena, so soon? But welcome to CAF.

 

[Brendan_64]

So your point is what? That if as Rence said in the real world most people practice some form of birth control, that by far the vast majority of Catholics don’t follow every teaching?

Fortunately the Church isn’t a democracy where the individual members vote on what is, and what isn’t, a grave sin.

 

[Evania]

So your point is what? That if as Rence said in the real world most people practice some form of birth control, that by far the vast majority of Catholics don’t follow every teaching?

How is your post relevant to the OP’s original comment? The Church isn’t a democracy. Just because the “majority” believes in something contrary to Church teaching, by who’s authority does it mean that they are right and Christ’s Church is wrong?

 

[CMatt25]

Others have already given some good explanations on how a Christian can be pro choice. But I’ll just add a few points.

Part of the problem anti choice Christians have in understanding this, is that they confuse being pro choice with pro abortion. Yet many pro choice people I know would personally probably not even consider abortion. Pro choice Christians though seem to recognize in a nation of plural beliefs that civil law may need to allow women access to safe and legal abortion, allowing her the right to follow the dictates of her own faith and beliefs. After consulting with her own clergy, her doctor, her family members, and spending time in prayer. There are many religious and theological perspectives on when life and personhood begin.

I also know in the OT there is a discussion on the fetus and the mother being harmed, and the penalty as I recall was greater in the case of loss of the mother.

But here’s not the least part that anti choice folks fail to grasp. Pro choice Christians also believe in the sanctity of life! But that includes life beyond the womb. Besides the lives of the sick and the poor and lives affected by war vs peace, immigration, and a whole host of other issues beyond abortion, to those Christians that are pro choice the sanctity of life includes the life of the mother. There are Christians who oppose choice and legal abortion even in cases of rape, incest and to protect the life of the mother. Yet for pro choice Christians the sanctity of life includes the effects such pregnancies may have on the woman’s life and the lives of her family. And perhaps even for some, what effects an unwanted pregnancy may have on a child born into this world.

The issue is a difficult one and one like none other. And balancing the rights of women with the rights of the unborn fetus in the womb and determining personhood rights is simply not as black and white as anti choice people like to believe or to make it out to be.

 

[manualman]

I am giving up. You people are just too hateful. I am NOT posting lies, nor am I endorsing abortion or claiming it is not murder. I am also not claiming that the Church has ever had any other position other than abortion is sin.

…

I absolutely agree that these past opinions must be viewed in their historical context…that is, people simply did not fully understand the process of conception and reproduction. I for one agree with you that if these various saints or popes lived with a modern understanding of conception and reproduction, they would very likely have very different opinions on the matter!

You are very wrong to call me a liar, and you owe me an apology.

Honestly, I am very shocked at how hateful the responses to my posts have been. My entire goal has been to been more charitable and non judgemental of past Catholics who simply did not have full understanding of reproductive matters, and to not judge, for instance, St. Augustine for a scientific ignorance he could not help.

…

Very sad, very disappointing.

Helena,

You might notice in my post that I posited two potential motives for your post: misinformed or deceptive. I tended to believe it was misinformed, but I see now that there may be a third option: unclear writing. My apologies.

If you reread your previous posts, I think you’ll see that they do not APPEAR to be a defense of Early Fathers and saints, but rather appear to be an apologia for the view that abortion isn’t murder (and the way you wrote appeared to imply that this obsolete line of thought still granted intellectual cover for abortion apologists today). Until now you included no clarifications that these EFs had scientific competence limitations that prevented them from reasoning to a purely philosophical conclusion that abortion is murder. You unfortunately also implied that these EFs also minimized the severity of the crime of abortion, which is simply untrue.

Criticisms of your post may seem emotional and angry, but these are hard times filled with people attempting to gloss over the reality of what abortion IS. Hard words confronting unclear communications are a pale sin indeed compared to the slaughter of around one MILLION innocent human beings every year. Somehow that always seems to get lost in laments about people’s rudeness…

CMatt, As always, you are correct to note that baptism is indelible. Nevertheless, Judas was as baptised as I am, no? Jesus had some rather disturbing things to say about people who declare their love for him with a “Lord, Lord…” but refuse to yield their desires and preferences to God’s will. If a full 1/12 of Jesus own hand-picked disciples could betray him so thoroughly… Well, one should beware feeling complacent merely because one is baptized.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt, As always, you are correct to note that baptism is indelible. Nevertheless, Judas was as baptised as I am, no? Jesus had some rather disturbing things to say about people who declare their love for him with a “Lord, Lord…” but refuse to yield their desires and preferences to God’s will. If a full 1/12 of Jesus own hand-picked disciples could betray him so thoroughly… Well, one should beware feeling complacent merely because one is baptized.

Thanks Manualman. Yes God knows at least I always try to be correct here on the Catholic Church’s answer as to what Baptism in the Catholic Church means in terms of who the Church considers to be a Catholic. I know Judas betrayed and Peter denied Christ, and Thomas doubted. But I have no idea if Judas is in hell. The last I read the Catholic Church hadn’t declared either that he or any specific person is in hell. Or do you or the Catholic Church now believe you know if Judas or anyone else for that matter is in hell?

 

[Evania]

"Others have already given some good explanations on how a Christian can be pro choice. But I’ll just add a few points.

Part of the problem anti choice Christians have in understanding this, is that they confuse being pro choice with pro abortion. Yet many pro choice people I know would personally probably not even consider abortion. Pro choice Christians though seem to recognize in a nation of plural beliefs that civil law may need to allow women access to safe and legal abortion, allowing her the right to follow the dictates of her own faith and beliefs. After consulting with her own clergy, her doctor, her family members, and spending time in prayer. There are many religious and theological perspectives on when life and personhood begin. "

What you’re failing to grasp is that it doesn’t matter if a person “personally wouldn’t have an abortion”. To be personally opposed is not the issue. A lot of anti-life people believe this is merely a woman’s issue. No, we believe it’s a human rights issue. If a man and woman decide to engage in the marital act, they do so in the full knowledge that a pregnancy may take place. This hardly makes a woman a “victim” of an unplanned pregnancy. The only victim is the person that is innocent and is receiving a death sentence.
There is no such thing as a safe abortion if half of those who come in, leave dead, and are discarded in trash bins. It’s easy to sit in an armchair and speculate and ponder the fate of another when it doesn’t involve your personal death being involved. To be clear: The irony is that anti-life people advocate for abortion based on the baby harming a woman in some way. The reality is: The only person being harmed is the baby that they’re seeking to wipe out so a woman can have sex with zero consequences.

“But here’s not the least part that anti choice folks fail to grasp. Pro choice Christians also believe in the sanctity of life! But that includes life beyond the womb. Besides the lives of the sick and the poor and lives affected by war vs peace, immigration, and a whole host of other issues beyond abortion, to those Christians that are pro choice the sanctity of life includes the life of the mother. There are Christians who oppose choice and legal abortion even in cases of rape, incest and to protect the life of the mother. Yet for pro choice Christians the sanctity of life includes the effects such pregnancies may have on the woman’s life and the lives of her family. And perhaps even for some, what effects an unwanted pregnancy may have on a child born into this world.”

Yes, but what value do any of these other issues have if a person is not afforded the most basic right to LIVE?

As for abortion in cases of rape and incest: You can line up two different ultrasound pictures, both are healthy, hearts beating, brain activity etc…The only difference is that one was conceived in rape. Why should one get the death penalty? The baby is as innocent as the woman involved in the rape. Would the killing of a baby solve anything? Would it UN-rape the mother? How would the deliberate killing of an innocent person solve anything at all, other than creating a second victim of a tragic act? Also, why should a child die for the sins of their father? The death penalty isn’t applicable to rapists, so why should it apply to their children? Whether she wants the baby or not, it doesn’t negate the Church’s teaching that we are all made in the Image and Likeness of God. The truth is, that the baby is also her’s, and a person’s value doesn’t hinge on who their father is or what he sins he has committed.

“The issue is a difficult one and one like none other. And balancing the rights of women with the rights of the unborn fetus in the womb and determining personhood rights is simply not as black and white as anti choice people like to believe or to make it out to be.”

Thankfully God doesn’t see it that way. Thou shalt not kill. It doesn’t have to be a difficult issue if you align your beliefs with the Truth. No one, not you, not me, or any of those babies labeled as “Hazardous Waste” lying in the bottom of a trash can were accidents in the eyes if God.

 

[CMatt25]

Evania, I actually have the God given ability to grasp and understand both sides of many issues including this one.

 

[Evania]

So do a lot of people, but it takes wisdom to choose the right path…preferably the one that results in life for the truly innocent.

God Bless

 

[manualman]

Thanks Manualman. Yes God knows at least I always try to be correct here on the Catholic Church’s answer as to what Baptism in the Catholic Church means in terms of who the Church considers to be a Catholic. I know Judas betrayed and Peter denied Christ, and Thomas doubted. But I have no idea if Judas is in hell. The last I read the Catholic Church hadn’t declared either that he or any specific person is in hell. Or do you or the Catholic Church now believe you know if Judas or anyone else for that matter is in hell?

Culpability can only be judged by God. Objective morality can (if imperfectly) be judged by mere men. Since hell involves both commiting grave sin AND being culpable for it, nobody but God knows who is in hell.

But I don’t recommend that people blithely follow Judas’s example and hope for the best either. Nor should you.

It’s great that you have empathy enough to understand both sides of issues. Have you tried that on the ownership of slaves or cooperation with Soviets? A funny thing happens when you do. You find out the evil isn’t like in the movies. Evil is not often found in the form of inhuman monsters with no redeeming human qualities. Rather evil most often is found in people with moms, and little brothers, maybe even with loving spouses and kids of their own. It’s a mystery of human nature that we can (if imperfectly) retain much of the image and likeness of God while being brutal and inhuman to at least a few of our fellow man. It’s why we ALL need a Savior, after all!

 

[CMatt25]

So do a lot of people, but it takes wisdom to choose the right path…preferably the one that results in life for the truly innocent.

God Bless

God bless you too as you walk along the path of your faith journey. You too Manualman, And to all who walk by faith. Not by sight. Peace be with you and with all who travel along their journeys.

 

[manualman]

(name removed by moderator),

You mean you actually cool off before responding? Maybe I should try that!