How can a Protestant affirm the Athanasian creed?

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DeusExMachina

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Out of a purely academic interest, I have been researching the standards of faith which various denominations hold to be “true expositions of the teachings of holy scripture.” Now something I find odd is that the majority of mainline Protestant groups, such as Lutherans, Presbyterians, other reformed churches, and the churches of the Anglican communion list the Athanasian creed. While the first half may seem obvious to most Christians, I would think the second half would pose a problem. Here is the text, so that you know what I’m talking about (emphasis mine)
  1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
  2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
  3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
  4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
  5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
  6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
  7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
  8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
  9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
  10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
  11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
  12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
  13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
  14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
  15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
  16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
  17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
  18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
  19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
  20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
  21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
  22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
  23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
  24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
  25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
  26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
  27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
  28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
  29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
  31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
  32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
  33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
  34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
  35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
  36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
  37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
  38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
  39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
  40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
  41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
  42. and shall give account of their own works.
  43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
  44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
    Not only does this affirm that God judges U.S. based on our works, and that works are needed for salvation, thereby nullifying sola Fide, but it goes even further, and says that if you don’t believe that, you cannot be saved :eek:.
    So, how can a Protestant agree with this while still remaining Protestant?
 
DeusExMachina said:
Out of a purely academic interest, I have been researching the standards of faith which various denominations hold to be “true expositions of the teachings of holy scripture.” Now something I find odd is that the majority of mainline Protestant groups, such as Lutherans, Presbyterians, other reformed churches, and the churches of the Anglican communion list the Athanasian creed. While the first half may seem obvious to most Christians, I would think the second half would pose a problem. Here is the text, so that you know what I’m talking about (emphasis mine)
  1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
  2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
  3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
  4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
  5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
  6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
  7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
  8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
  9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
  10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
  11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
  12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
  13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
  14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
  15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
  16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
  17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
  18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
  19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
  20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
  21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
  22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
  23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
  24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
  25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
  26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
  27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
  28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
  29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
  31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
  32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
  33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
  34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
  35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
  36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
  37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
  38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
  39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
  40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
  41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
  42. and shall give account of their own works.
  43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
  44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
    Not only does this affirm that God judges U.S. based on our works, and that works are needed for salvation, thereby nullifying sola Fide, but it goes even further, and says that if you don’t believe that, you cannot be saved :eek:.
    So, how can a Protestant agree with this while still remaining Protestant?
Click to expand...
  1. God judging us by our works is a problem how ?
  2. Where does it nullify sola fide ?
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
  1. God judging us by our works is a problem how ?
  2. Where does it nullify sola fide ?
Click to expand...
It nullifies sola Fide for precisely that reason; the premise of sola Fide is that the only criteria God justifies by (declaring someone to be righteous) is by faith, without works.
 
DeusExMachina said:
It nullifies sola Fide for precisely that reason; the premise of sola Fide is that the only criteria God justifies by (declaring someone to be righteous) is by faith, without works.
Click to expand...
Except people who believe in sola fide make a distinction in knds of faith. A saving faith is a faith that produces works. I don’t know how anyone can spend time on these forums and still not know what is meant by this.
 
theropod said:
Except people who believe in sola fide make a distinction in knds of faith. A saving faith is a faith that produces works. I don’t know how anyone can spend time on these forums and still not know what is meant by this.
Click to expand...
Catholics are often accused of having a faith and works system regarding salvation. Why call it *sola fide *if you believe that works play a part in this yourself? Perhaps you can explain it to me as well. And why do Protestants have so many *solas? * Sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, sola this 'n that. Sola means alone. So why do you need more than one sola?
 
DeusExMachina said:
Out of a purely academic interest, I have been researching the standards of faith which various denominations hold to be “true expositions of the teachings of holy scripture.” Now something I find odd is that the majority of mainline Protestant groups, such as Lutherans, Presbyterians, other reformed churches, and the churches of the Anglican communion list the Athanasian creed. While the first half may seem obvious to most Christians, I would think the second half would pose a problem. Here is the text, so that you know what I’m talking about (emphasis mine)
  1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
  2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
  3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
  4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
  5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
  6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
  7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
  8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
  9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
  10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
  11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
  12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
  13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
  14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
  15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
  16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
  17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
  18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
  19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
  20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
  21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
  22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
  23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
  24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
  25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
  26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
  27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
  28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
  29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
  31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
  32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
  33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
  34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
  35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
  36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
  37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
  38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
  39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
  40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
  41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
  42. and shall give account of their own works.
  43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
  44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
    Not only does this affirm that God judges U.S. based on our works, and that works are needed for salvation, thereby nullifying sola Fide, but it goes even further, and says that if you don’t believe that, you cannot be saved :eek:.
    So, how can a Protestant agree with this while still remaining Protestant?
Click to expand...
Luther’s Commentary on Galatians 5:6
. Verse 6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
Click to expand...
Jon
 
Wouldn’t it be a lot easier, and true to say we are saved by faith **and ** works? :rolleyes:
 
JonNC said:
By grace through faith that works through love

Jon
Click to expand...
Jon, that love manifests itself in works. So one can truly say if you have faith to move mountains, but no love (works of charity), Jesus will say to you:
Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42k For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44* Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Click to expand...
Every passage of the NT, where our judgment is talked about, faith is not the deciding factor. Works is. That’s why a Catholic knows when they say: “we are saved by grace, faith, and works,” the Trinity gives that person the thumbs up.
 
Duane1966 said:
Jon, that love manifests itself in works. So one can truly say if you have faith to move mountains, but no love (works of charity), Jesus will say to you:Every passage of the NT, where our judgment is talked about, faith is not the deciding factor. Works is. That’s why a Catholic knows when they say: “we are saved by grace, faith, and works,” the Trinity gives that person the thumbs up.
Click to expand...
The reason that faith is not a deciding factor is that works are completely irrelevant unless they are evidence of faith. This is what St. Paul is saying in Galatians 5:6, when he speaks of faith working through love. He is identifying the kind of faith one must have. We are saved by grace alone. We are justified by faith, a faith that works through love.

Jon
 
The issue is that faith alone isn’t sufficient. Having to clarify the difference between non-saving faith and saving faith (faith+works done in faith) just seems rather pointless, especially when the statement sola fide has been completely oversimplified beyond anything Luther ever intended by many (though not all) denominations, and since the Catholic Church has been consistent in condemning Pelagianism. And if anyone wants to say that non-saving faith isn’t “faith,” I suggest taking that argument up with James. Sola fide, when not properly understood, has led to so many heresies precisely to it’s lack of clarity on the role of works.
 
JonNC said:
The reason that faith is not a deciding factor is that works are completely irrelevant unless they are evidence of faith. This is what St. Paul is saying in Galatians 5:6, when he speaks of faith working through love. He is identifying the kind of faith one must have. We are saved by grace alone. We are justified by faith, a faith that works through love.

Jon
Click to expand...
Both are irrelevant without the other. Works are not evidence of faith, as works can be done by someone with no faith. But, in conjunction with faith, works are what make faith alive. So we are justified by both, as James and Paul say. James says Abraham was justified by works in James 2. By process of elimination, we can be confident that Paul does include works of charity in determining our justification. The fact that Paul specifically says that works of the law do not justify, it then clearly follows that works of charity do justify. Otherwise, why just single out works of the law? He could have easily said all works, be they charitable, or of the law, do not justify. But he didn’t.

I would add this. James is obviously talking to people who believed they were justified by faith alone. That is why he is so clear to tell them that it is faith and works that justify. And that either one, without the other, is useless.
 
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