How can Abortion be Wrong?

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The problem, unfortunately, is not that we must convince people that abortion is the killing of a human being. The main point in contention is whether a woman should have the right to choose to kill that human being …
Excellent point, and the more I think about, the more I like it. It puts emphasis on our guilt, the choices we make, rather than the innocent. And it doesn’t require a vengeful god, just a sense of morality. (Now don’t go and hyperventilate all over your keyboards, I am a Christian. Remember the point of my OP was non-religious arguments against abortion.)
 
So the only objective scientific fact we have is that fertilized eggs are human (the adjective) - not that they are human beings (the noun).

Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman’s body to survive. Anti-choicers might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. Anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. She can’t hire someone else to do it.

Another key difference is that a fetus doesn’t just depend on a woman’s body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Persons, by definition, must be separate individuals who operate independently of others. They do not gain the status of persons by virtue of living inside the body of another person - the very thought is inherently ridiculous, even offensive.

The normal meaning of human being implies a physical body of a certain size and shape with common attributes (excepting disabilities). Early embryonic forms do not share basic commonalities that define us as human beings. For example, zygotes and blastocysts are barely visible to the naked eye and have no bodies, brains, skeleton, or internal organs. Fetuses cannot breathe or make sounds, and they cannot see or be seen (except by shadowy ultrasound). They absorb nourishment and expel waste via an umbilical cord and placenta, not via a mouth and anus as do all other human beings. Further, fetuses are not just miniature babies. At various stages, fetuses have eyes on stalks, notochords (instead of spines), fish-like gills, tails, downy fur, distorted torsos, spindly legs, giant heads, and alien-looking faces. In fact, an early human fetus is practically indistinguishable in appearance from a dog or pig fetus. Finally, the fetal brain is not yet capable of conscious thought and memory (which aren’t fully actualized until two or three years after birth). But our complex brains are what set us apart from animals and define us as human beings. The brain is the seat of personhood.[6]

Anti-choicers also use the phrase “humanity of the fetus,” by which they may mean its biological human qualities, but it’s ambiguous, and purposely so. The word “humanity” implies compassionate human emotions and virtues, such as pathos, love, or kindness. The term is cleverly designed to elicit sympathy for a fetus, and assign it human-like qualities it simply does not have. The ability to feel joy, sadness, anger, and hatred are an integral part of our personhood, and we do not learn to develop such sophisticated emotions until we start socially interacting with others.

Besides the capacity to experience emotions, we generally think of personhood as possessing the qualities of intelligence, self-awareness, and moral responsibility.[7] Fetuses do not share these characteristics. On a more practical level however, the term “person” is really a legal and social construction. Persons enjoy legal rights and constitutional freedoms, such as the right to assemble, travel, protest, speak, and believe as they wish. Persons have birth certificates and social security numbers. Persons earn income, pay taxes, and vote, or they are registered dependents of those that do. Under this definition, it is an indisputable fact that fetuses are not persons. They are literally incapable of exercising legal personhood in any meaningful way. Although you could call a fetus a “potential person,” a potential person cannot have personhood rights either, in the same way that a 6-year old cannot obtain a driver’s license just because he’s a potential 16-year old. Potential persons have only potential rights, not actual rights.

So even though a fetus is biologically human, it’s definitely not a person (legally and socially), and it’s questionable whether it’s a human being (physically). Although we usually consider persons to be human beings as well, that’s not necessarily always the case. We could argue that intelligent animals like chimpanzees share some qualities of personhood with us, while a few human beings do not qualify as persons, such as brain-dead individuals.[8]Likewise, we could argue that fetuses are not human beings by virtue of their non-personhood and because they have unique physical qualities different from any born human being.

However, there is a wide divergence of opinion on the degree of “human beingness” of the fetus, and more pertinently - what its moral value should be. Biology, medicine, law, philosophy, and theology have no consensus on that issue, and neither does society as a whole. There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim. That’s why we should give the benefit of the doubt to women and let them decide - because women are indisputable human beings and persons with rights.

Does a Fetus Have a Right to Life?

Although fetuses cannot enjoy legal personhood, anti-choicers argue that fetuses do have a right to life that outweighs the right of the woman to control her fertility and her life.

Even if a fetus can be said to have a right to life, this does not include the right to use the body of another human being. For example, the state cannot force people to donate organs or blood, even to save someone’s life. We are not obligated by law to risk our lives jumping into a river to save a drowning victim, noble as that might be. Therefore, even if a fetus has a right to life, a pregnant woman is not required to save it by loaning out her body for nine months against her will.[9] In response, anti-choicers say that being pregnant is not the same as being a Good Samaritan, because the woman chose to have sex, voluntarily accepting the risk of pregnancy.[10] This argument is sexist and puritanical because it punishes women, not men, for their sexual behavior. Moreover, sex is not a contract for pregnancy - people have a constitutional right to non-procreative sex because of legalized birth control, which implicitly provides the right to have sex without reproducing.[11] Most abortions are caused by failed contraception anyway, but regardless, consent to sex does not entail consent to pregnancy, any more than consent to swimming implies consent to drown.

A fetus’ supposed right to life wouldn’t automatically overrule a woman’s right to choose anyway, which can be argued to have a higher moral value under the circumstances. The free exercise of one’s moral conscience is a fundamental right in our society. And since pregnancy entails profound physical, psychological, and long-lasting consequences for a woman - it is not a mere “inconvenience” - her freedoms are significantly restricted if she is forced to carry to term

prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetus-focus-fallacy.shtml
 
So the only objective scientific fact we have is that fertilized eggs are human (the adjective) - not that they are human beings (the noun).

Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman’s body to survive. Anti-choicers might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. Anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. She can’t hire someone else to do it.

Another key difference is that a fetus doesn’t just depend on a woman’s body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Persons, by definition, must be separate individuals who operate independently of others. They do not gain the status of persons by virtue of living inside the body of another person - the very thought is inherently ridiculous, even offensive.

The normal meaning of human being implies a physical body of a certain size and shape with common attributes (excepting disabilities). Early embryonic forms do not share basic commonalities that define us as human beings. For example, zygotes and blastocysts are barely visible to the naked eye and have no bodies, brains, skeleton, or internal organs. Fetuses cannot breathe or make sounds, and they cannot see or be seen (except by shadowy ultrasound). They absorb nourishment and expel waste via an umbilical cord and placenta, not via a mouth and anus as do all other human beings. Further, fetuses are not just miniature babies. At various stages, fetuses have eyes on stalks, notochords (instead of spines), fish-like gills, tails, downy fur, distorted torsos, spindly legs, giant heads, and alien-looking faces. In fact, an early human fetus is practically indistinguishable in appearance from a dog or pig fetus. Finally, the fetal brain is not yet capable of conscious thought and memory (which aren’t fully actualized until two or three years after birth). But our complex brains are what set us apart from animals and define us as human beings. The brain is the seat of personhood.[6]

Anti-choicers also use the phrase “humanity of the fetus,” by which they may mean its biological human qualities, but it’s ambiguous, and purposely so. The word “humanity” implies compassionate human emotions and virtues, such as pathos, love, or kindness. The term is cleverly designed to elicit sympathy for a fetus, and assign it human-like qualities it simply does not have. The ability to feel joy, sadness, anger, and hatred are an integral part of our personhood, and we do not learn to develop such sophisticated emotions until we start socially interacting with others.

Besides the capacity to experience emotions, we generally think of personhood as possessing the qualities of intelligence, self-awareness, and moral responsibility.[7] Fetuses do not share these characteristics. On a more practical level however, the term “person” is really a legal and social construction. Persons enjoy legal rights and constitutional freedoms, such as the right to assemble, travel, protest, speak, and believe as they wish. Persons have birth certificates and social security numbers. Persons earn income, pay taxes, and vote, or they are registered dependents of those that do. Under this definition, it is an indisputable fact that fetuses are not persons. They are literally incapable of exercising legal personhood in any meaningful way. Although you could call a fetus a “potential person,” a potential person cannot have personhood rights either, in the same way that a 6-year old cannot obtain a driver’s license just because he’s a potential 16-year old. Potential persons have only potential rights, not actual rights.

So even though a fetus is biologically human, it’s definitely not a person (legally and socially), and it’s questionable whether it’s a human being (physically). Although we usually consider persons to be human beings as well, that’s not necessarily always the case. We could argue that intelligent animals like chimpanzees share some qualities of personhood with us, while a few human beings do not qualify as persons, such as brain-dead individuals.[8]Likewise, we could argue that fetuses are not human beings by virtue of their non-personhood and because they have unique physical qualities different from any born human being.

However, there is a wide divergence of opinion on the degree of “human beingness” of the fetus, and more pertinently - what its moral value should be. Biology, medicine, law, philosophy, and theology have no consensus on that issue, and neither does society as a whole. There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim. That’s why we should give the benefit of the doubt to women and let them decide - because women are indisputable human beings and persons with rights.

Does a Fetus Have a Right to Life?

Although fetuses cannot enjoy legal personhood, anti-choicers argue that fetuses do have a right to life that outweighs the right of the woman to control her fertility and her life.

Even if a fetus can be said to have a right to life, this does not include the right to use the body of another human being. For example, the state cannot force people to donate organs or blood, even to save someone’s life. We are not obligated by law to risk our lives jumping into a river to save a drowning victim, noble as that might be. Therefore, even if a fetus has a right to life, a pregnant woman is not required to save it by loaning out her body for nine months against her will.[9] In response, anti-choicers say that being pregnant is not the same as being a Good Samaritan, because the woman chose to have sex, voluntarily accepting the risk of pregnancy.[10] This argument is sexist and puritanical because it punishes women, not men, for their sexual behavior. Moreover, sex is not a contract for pregnancy - people have a constitutional right to non-procreative sex because of legalized birth control, which implicitly provides the right to have sex without reproducing.[11] Most abortions are caused by failed contraception anyway, but regardless, consent to sex does not entail consent to pregnancy, any more than consent to swimming implies consent to drown.

A fetus’ supposed right to life wouldn’t automatically overrule a woman’s right to choose anyway, which can be argued to have a higher moral value under the circumstances. The free exercise of one’s moral conscience is a fundamental right in our society. And since pregnancy entails profound physical, psychological, and long-lasting consequences for a woman - it is not a mere “inconvenience” - her freedoms are significantly restricted if she is forced to carry to term

prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetus-focus-fallacy.shtml
I don’t buy a single word of this nonsense. lol Not one.
 
So the only objective scientific fact we have is that fertilized eggs are human (the adjective) - not that they are human beings (the noun).
Gibberish; they have their own DNA, sufficient to grow every part they will ever have without manipulation.
Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman’s body to survive. Anti-choicers might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. Anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. She can’t hire someone else to do it.
Irrelevant to the identity of the fetus/embryo.
Another key difference is that a fetus doesn’t just depend on a woman’s body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Persons, by definition, must be separate individuals who operate independently of others. They do not gain the status of persons by virtue of living inside the body of another person - the very thought is inherently ridiculous, even offensive.
An opinion, not a fact.
The normal meaning of human being implies a physical body of a certain size
What size?
For example, zygotes and blastocysts are barely visible to the naked eye and have no bodies, brains, skeleton, or internal organs.
They are growing these parts and in a few weeks will have them.
Fetuses cannot breathe or make sounds, and they cannot see or be seen (except by shadowy ultrasound). They absorb nourishment and expel waste via an umbilical cord and placenta, not via a mouth and anus as do all other human beings. Further, fetuses are not just miniature babies. At various stages, fetuses have eyes on stalks, notochords (instead of spines), fish-like gills, tails, downy fur, distorted torsos, spindly legs, giant heads, and alien-looking faces. In fact, an early human fetus is practically indistinguishable in appearance from a dog or pig fetus. Finally, the fetal brain is not yet capable of conscious thought and memory (which aren’t fully actualized until two or three years after birth). But our complex brains are what set us apart from animals and define us as human beings. The brain is the seat of personhood.[6]
Fetuses breathe amniotic fluid through their mouths, oxygen through their cords. I’ve seen plenty of fetuses and none had eyes on stalks – nor embryos at any stage. Certainly the early eye looks like it belongs on stalks but so what? Even with eyestalks it’s a baby human and will never spontaneously become a snail, pig, dog or alien. The fish-like gills actually are slits that become part of the inner-ear system (nature wastes very little), and never make the child any part of a fish. I have fur! I went through my whole childhood with spindly legs. A nonstarter.
The word “humanity” implies compassionate human emotions and virtues, such as pathos, love, or kindness. The term is cleverly designed to elicit sympathy for a fetus, and assign it human-like qualities it simply does not have. The ability to feel joy, sadness, anger, and hatred are an integral part of our personhood, and we do not learn to develop such sophisticated emotions until we start socially interacting with others.
Empathy develops in the first year, and is fully in place by sometime around three. Are two-year-olds babies? Indeed they are. Joy and sadness are hard to pin down in someone who has trouble communicating but there is no reason to think a fetus lacks them. They require nothing but brainwaves. Anger requires an object and no one needs hatred to be human. Sociopaths and some autistic and schizoid people have no empathy but are obviously human beings. Pregnant women often interact with their babies.
Besides the capacity to experience emotions, we generally think of personhood as possessing the qualities of intelligence
:eek:
, self-awareness, and moral responsibility.[7] Fetuses do not share these characteristics.
Nor do children.
Persons have birth certificates and social security numbers. Persons earn income, pay taxes, and vote, or they are registered dependents of those that do. Under this definition, it is an indisputable fact that fetuses are not persons. They are literally incapable of exercising legal personhood in any meaningful way.
Scary precedent. So people off the books and off the grid have no rights? Children born in the woods have no personhood? The government confers the right merely to live as a reward for registering and paying dues? No, we have an unalienable right to life, given by no government and dependent on no government.
There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim. That’s why we should give the benefit of the doubt to women and let them decide - because women are indisputable human beings and persons with rights.
No, we should give the benefit of the doubt (if any can be defensibly found) to the one whose life is in peril.
the right of the woman to control her fertility and her life.
We do have a right to affect our own fertility. Avoiding sex during fertile times and giving children to those who want them are ways of doing so. We have no *control *over fertiltity anymore than a man has control over his or a child over her development and future size. We have an element of the unknown in our lives.
This argument is sexist and puritanical because it punishes women, not men, for their sexual behavior. Moreover, sex is not a contract for pregnancy - people have a constitutional right to non-procreative sex because of legalized birth control, which implicitly provides the right to have sex without reproducing.[11]
A child is not a punishment. A child is genetic immortality. Biologically this is success – the basic reward. A woman’s reward is greater than a man’s because of her deeper bond with the child. This lasts many times longer than nine months. In any case the time from learning she is pregnant to a chance to deliver safely is far less than the full nine months. It’s usually about five or six months. Sex is at its most basic a contract for pregnancy by its very function. If I felt I had a right to eat five times what my body needs, and to shoot holes in a wall where there might be human beings sleeping, in the belief it would keep me from becoming fat, that would be seen for what it is: delusional and dangerous insane behavior. Similarly, to have sex and then kill what may or may not be a person in the belief this undoes the pregnancy as if nothing had ever happened is delusional and insane.
Most abortions are caused by failed contraception anyway, but regardless, consent to sex does not entail consent to pregnancy, any more than consent to swimming implies consent to drown.
Abortion is never caused by failed BC. Last I heard most were caused by D&C. Pregnancy is caused by sex. Refusal of motherhood is caused by a personal choice. No child is unwanted and many adoptive couples are willing to support a pregnant woman in every way during and after the pregnancy. The mother generally chooses abortion because she cannot stand to bond with the newborn and then give it up, or because someone has pushed her into aborting. Either way she has no chance to make a conscious informed choice.
And since pregnancy entails profound physical, psychological, and long-lasting consequences for a woman - it is not a mere “inconvenience” - her freedoms are significantly restricted if she is forced to carry to term.
prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetus-focus-fallacy.shtml
These are greater if anything if she aborts.

That was easy.
 
Addendum: the “sex : pregnancy :: swimming : drowning” analogy is ill-considered. Sex : pregnancy :: swimming : wet hair by ay rational understanding of the very reason sex exists. With or without any religious belief whatever, we all know sex is only found among sexually reproducing species. It wouldn’t exist if it weren’t a way of reproducing. To have sex and expect not to reproduce is like flipping a lightswitch and expecting nothing to happen. Parenthood is not like drowning in any case. It’s a stage of most people’s lives, a normal part of becoming a grownup, and the original retirement plan. Some choose to skip it. But then some choose to be insurance brokers al their lives and the company downsizes and the next job they find is in auto painting – and they like it. Life throws things at us. A child isn’t one of the worst of those things. The child will bring joy long after what’s-his-name is jsut a bad memory, for a single girl.
 
So the only objective scientific fact we have is that fertilized eggs are human (the adjective) - not that they are human beings (the noun)…
Since your first statement is factually incorrect, the rest of your argument falls apart and should be ignored. The subject of our discussion is human beings, not “beings”, thus human and human beings are synonymous. But since we are discussing the pros and cons of abortion we cannot ignore what you say. I think strngrnrth did a very good job of rebutting your argument.
 
Plenty of us know these factoids. They’ve been around since pre-nternet days.

If you knew a woman who was pregnant and she had 8 kids already…of which 3 of them were deaf, 2 were blind and 1 was mentally retarded…and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she should have an abortion?

If you answered "yes", then you would have killed
Beethoven.
And some pro-choicers will point out that it is very rare that a child will turn out to be a Beethoven. I guess that means that us “plain jane” folk are not worth the trouble of childbirth to some people, in a utilitarian scheme.

I wonder, of the 50 Million plus aborted children, was there a Beethoven amongst them? Old argument, I know. But, how many of those aborted children would have grown up to be just “plain jane” good people?
 
PLAL has started another thread named VIDEO: “Face The Truth”. I encourage everyone to watch the video he has linked to.

Go to:
PLAL said:
VIDEO: “Face The Truth”
 
And some pro-choicers will point out that it is very rare that a child will turn out to be a Beethoven. I guess that means that us “plain jane” folk are not worth the trouble of childbirth to some people, in a utilitarian scheme.

I wonder, of the 50 Million plus aborted children, was there a Beethoven amongst them? Old argument, I know. But, how many of those aborted children would have grown up to be just “plain jane” good people?
Plain jane or extraordinary, the “facts” of the medical history of Beethoven’s mother will lead all pro-abortion people to vote him out of existence before he was even born.

The fact: attempting to out-think God and veto His plans.

Whenever we sing “Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee,” the music is Beethoven’s! Deo gratias!
 
And some pro-choicers will point out that it is very rare that a child will turn out to be a Beethoven. I guess that means that us “plain jane” folk are not worth the trouble of childbirth to some people, in a utilitarian scheme.

I wonder, of the 50 Million plus aborted children, was there a Beethoven amongst them? Old argument, I know. But, how many of those aborted children would have grown up to be just “plain jane” good people?
I read a story about a man who prayed to God, “Lord, if you are so good and loving - why haven’t you blessed us with someone who could give us the cure for cancer?”

God replied, “I have done so many times, but you people kept on aborting them before they could be born.”
 
Since your first statement is factually incorrect, the rest of your argument falls apart and should be ignored. The subject of our discussion is human beings, not “beings”, thus human and human beings are synonymous. But since we are discussing the pros and cons of abortion we cannot ignore what you say. I think strngrnrth did a very good job of rebutting your argument.
Don’t bother. She is a pro abortion feminist. Nobody will change her mind.
 
Don’t bother. She is a pro abortion feminist. Nobody will change her mind.
You said this about “swan” so I had to check her profile.
WHY would a pro-abortion feminist join a site named Catholic Answers?

It took some reading but I found the following in her posts.
It seems to me to explain everything - esp since she defines her religion as “other.” (!)


"Okay, I’ve been lurking on the sidelines long enough; I’ve got to step in and agree with Lukewarm even if it means incuring the wrath of those who disagree. Let me share some personal history with you: I am a 49 year old woman who was raised Southern Baptist, no sex, no drinking, etc… My family is very conservative and I was raised to be the same way - as were most of my friends. Well, guess what? We rebelled. We had boyfriends and we had sex. Birth control pills were harder to get back then so we look some big risks. Luckily, we didn’t get any STDs (and this was pre-AIDS) and didn’t get pregnant though we knew girls who did. Most of them had abortions because they were terrified of their parents - see, they had been raised so strick and warned about hell, etc., so the very idea of talking to their folks was out of the question (in these cases those strict rules kind of backfired). None of us felt we could talk to our parents about our sexual feelings and the urges we had as a result of going through puberty - so we talked to each other - the blind leading the blind. We felt our parents were out of touch and had no idea of the reality we were living and they didn’t try to understand. This is a classic story of teen angst and alienation from parents and it’s a lot more common now than it was 30-odd years ago. Kids reach a certain age, back then it was 16 or so, when although not adults, they aren’t children anymore either. And you can’t hide your kids from the world forever. How will they be prepared to live in today’s society if they are naive? Why can’t you just give them all the facts? Show you think they are capable of making the right decision instead of making it for them? You could say something like, “those who believe in using birth control use: give examples. But, of course, we know that’s wrong.”

Yes, I agree that I made a lot of mistakes, but my point is that all the threats in the world didn’t stop me and I wasn’t alone. My sponser when I became Catholic was tradtional and brought her kids up just as you are suggesting. One day her 16 year old daughter came home in her Catholic school uniform and announced she was pregnant. Do you really think your kids deserve to possibly die as a result of making a mistake (should they get AIDS)? Don’t you want them to feel they can come to you with questions and concerns and that you will listen to them and respect their feelings instead of damning them? Some kids will abstain and some won’t and you can’t tell from upbringing which they will be (part of the point of my story). I dont’t have kids but if I did I’d tell them my story, let them know I made mistakes and hope they could learn from them. But I’d be realistic enough to know that they might not. And I’d be there for them when they realized their error, and I’d forgive them (as would God) and I’d love them and I’d be glad they knew enough to protect themselves so I didn’t have to watch them die.

As I said at the start, I know a lot of people will disagree, but I thought you might benefit from hearing a real story instead of just theorizing on the hypothetical. Growing up is hard because there are so many things to learn and experience, being a parent is hard because you know how painful learning and experience can be. Try to work together and love each other. Trust and be willing to forgive. You’re the only parents your kids get."

So - once upon a time, this woman became Catholic. Now? "Other."
Maybe she is, once again, looking for truth?
 
If I had a daughter and she came home in her Catholic school uniform and said she was pregnant I would hold her and let her cry. I’m about to cry just thinking about the stress of single motherhood, growing up and coping with all that goes with school all at the same time, not knowing what Mom will say. So glad I didn’t get pregnant as a teenager.
Then I’d make her a cup of some beverage she likes and have the kind of discussion with her my mother had with me when I came home telling her I had been up all night on a bad LSD trip. I’d be patient, gentle, loving and still clear about what is right and wrong.
It might sound something like:
M: So are you ready to be a mother?
D: No.
M: But you are one. Is the father going to be helpful?
D: I don’t know. I doubt it.
M: Then I’ll help you. Where were you when you got pregnant?
D: His house. After a party. I was so high.
M: Why did you get high and go to his house?
D: I wanted to know what it was like. Then I was just kind of confused and tired so I went with the flow.
M: And now you see why that was a mistake. And a sin. So we’ll help you get good care and you can finish studying at home if you want. That might take some of the pressure off. We’ll help you learn to be a good mother and we’ll be here to guide you through the early years of this child’s life. You can use your old baby stuff of course. We love you and we love the child who is already here. becoming a woman and becoming a parent at the same time is going to be a lot of change but it’s worthwhile.
Now as for the sin you need to confess it, you know.
D: I have.
M: OK. Do you want to stay in school?
D: I’ll try for a while and then come home and do homestudy if it gets too intense.
M: Ok. {hug}

Now that’s my image of a good mother-pregnant dughter conversation. Love, information, preparation for reality – and no abortion anywhere.
 
Barrack Obama voted yes for partial birth abortion. Christians cannot possibly vote for this individual for president. His vote is irreconcilable with Christianity. For anyone who doubts this I encourage you to view the procedures of a partial birth abortion. For Christians this is a single issue campaign. Obama is evil and a surrogate for Satan.
 
it all sounds so simple…blame it one the ‘christians’ they must do etc etc…why do you think Jesus said that its easier for a camel to go thru an eye of a needle then for a rich man to get to heaven’ because its the wealthy ruling class that controls the world…as the great JEdgar Hoover called them…masters of deceit…its all by brainwashing that the above has occured. Check out the movies since the very beginning…cons over guards, prostitutes over decent house wives and moms…Cagney,Bogart,Grant,Bergman etc etc…all played in movies that debased and lampooned Christianity…a few generations of this nonsense and poof…we now have no two party system at all…both are pro abortion.gay ‘marriage’ no win wars, race and class warfare etc etc.in a secular humanistic society the regular citizen is a dummy…one who is of value only in so far as it can purchase the junk that the ruling class sells…if one convinces the public that this world is all there is…why then max out ones credit card,wave the flag, allow all sorts of what once was a degenerate life style and lampoon the ten commandments and all that is good…and that is what is happening…we have running this time around an anti-semitc muslim and a pervert that votes to allow slave labor products from china and who voted to confirm Ginsberg…an aclu official to the supremes…egads…well it cant happen here…pay at the pump for fuel that is so available but …well you know…have a nice day
 
it all sounds so simple…blame it one the ‘christians’ they must do etc etc…why do you think Jesus said that its easier for a camel to go thru an eye of a needle then for a rich man to get to heaven’ because its the wealthy ruling class that controls the world…as the great JEdgar Hoover called them…masters of deceit…its all by brainwashing that the above has occured. Check out the movies since the very beginning…cons over guards, prostitutes over decent house wives and moms…Cagney,Bogart,Grant,Bergman etc etc…all played in movies that debased and lampooned Christianity…a few generations of this nonsense and poof…we now have no two party system at all…both are pro abortion.gay ‘marriage’ no win wars, race and class warfare etc etc.in a secular humanistic society the regular citizen is a dummy…one who is of value only in so far as it can purchase the junk that the ruling class sells…if one convinces the public that this world is all there is…why then max out ones credit card,wave the flag, allow all sorts of what once was a degenerate life style and lampoon the ten commandments and all that is good…and that is what is happening…we have running this time around an anti-semitc muslim and a pervert that votes to allow slave labor products from china and who voted to confirm Ginsberg…an aclu official to the supremes…egads…well it cant happen here…pay at the pump for fuel that is so available but …well you know…have a nice day
Wow.

Peace,
Dante
 
I was the girl who came home in her catholic school uniform and announced she was pregnant.
Guess what? The Catholic Church was right. Also notice how I wrote catholic school with a small c.
My greatest screw-up in secular terms has become my greatest joy, my daughter.
The no-good spotty teenage boy is my husband of ten wonderful years next week.
My ignorant self realises she is still ignorant, but has fallen in love with He who knows all. How wonderful is the Grace of God.
 
it all sounds so simple…blame it one the ‘christians’ they must do etc etc…why do you think Jesus said that its easier for a camel to go thru an eye of a needle then for a rich man to get to heaven’ because its the wealthy ruling class that controls the world…as the great JEdgar Hoover called them…masters of deceit…its all by brainwashing that the above has occured. Check out the movies since the very beginning…cons over guards, prostitutes over decent house wives and moms…Cagney,Bogart,Grant,Bergman etc etc…all played in movies that debased and lampooned Christianity…a few generations of this nonsense and poof…we now have no two party system at all…both are pro abortion.gay ‘marriage’ no win wars, race and class warfare etc etc.in a secular humanistic society the regular citizen is a dummy…one who is of value only in so far as it can purchase the junk that the ruling class sells…if one convinces the public that this world is all there is…why then max out ones credit card,wave the flag, allow all sorts of what once was a degenerate life style and lampoon the ten commandments and all that is good…and that is what is happening…we have running this time around an anti-semitc muslim and a pervert that votes to allow slave labor products from china and who voted to confirm Ginsberg…an aclu official to the supremes…egads…well it cant happen here…pay at the pump for fuel that is so available but …well you know…have a nice day
-]How do you manage? /-]

-]But don’t be full of doom and gloom. Your buddy, (BB)The Libertarian, has entered the race./-]

Ahh, nevermind
 
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