How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?

[josh987654321]

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I don’t know how I can answer any of that, other than I do not believe Christ looked favorably on slavery and I think he likewise would condemn someone beating their innocent slave as it would go against His teachings, although He didn’t specify it directly, I believe he certainly did indirectly.

As for the Salem witch trials, I don’t know enough about it, I think they did wrong in burning people at the stake, but I also think they were very misguided, do I think they will go to hell, I don’t know. As for the inquisition, again I don’t know enough about it, I know there was a saint of the Catholic Church who was brought before the inquisition, as for them putting people to death, I think that’s certainly wrong and against Christ’s teachings; but again, I don’t know whether they will go to hell or not. I don’t know how I could answer these questions? I’m not the judge and I’m only trying to play along with the hypotheticals to the best of my ability but I think I’ll stop with that as I don’t think it’s doing it justice nor helping you or anyone else.

One thing I do know, is that when it comes to Heaven, Purgatory and Hell, that God does not work as a banker, weighing debts and demanding payment in full.

St Therese -
You know that Our Lord does not look so much at the greatness of our actions, nor even at their difficulty, but at the love with which we do them.
The Gospel of Mark:

The Widow’s Offering

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the multitude putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came, and put in two copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him, and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.”

Jesus to St. Faustina -
"There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me. You, who are the dispenser of My mercy, tell all the world about My goodness, and thus you will comfort My Heart." (Diary, 580)

"Why are you fearful and why do you tremble when you are united to Me? I am displeased when a soul yields to vain terror. Who will dare to touch you when you are with Me? Most dear to Me is the soul that strongly believes in My goodness and has complete trust in Me. I heap My confidence upon it and give it all it asks." (Diary, 453)

I will be reading the following to get a better understanding of my own Church’s position -

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2O.HTM
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/what-is-hell
catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is
catholic.com/magazine/articles/hell-yes-part-i
catholic.com/magazine/articles/hell-yes-part-ii
catholic.com/encyclopedia/hell
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

And I will read the Gospels again and reflecting on what Christ has said there regarding hell, I also know, given your responses and hypotheticals Bradski, that I believe you don’t have a proper understanding of Hell, what it’s like or what gets souls there but alas, I don’t know how to properly convey it at this time, when I have finished my research, I might come back and try and explain it.

I will leave it currently, with I don’t believe your hypotheticals or your current understanding does it justice at all, but I don’t know how to do it justice at this stage either. So please don’t leave thinking your hypotheticals or understanding of Hell is how it is or what we believe, because it’s not.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Yes, I am. Because my punishment is proportionate to the crime. The crime against humanity. Not the crime against God.

Every crime against humanity IS a crime against God.
You say your punishment is proportionate to the crime, then explain your statement quoted next,

#126…Well, pardon me, but the point for me comes when the person, with full intent, commits the crime. Personally speaking, he is damned from that point. I say that it’s too late to avoid punishment once the crime has been committed.

So do you consider hitting a woman in the face a crime against humanity?
If you do consider hitting a woman in the face a crime against humanity, then by your own judgment,

Personally speaking, he is damned from that point.

he is damned (meaning) condemned to eternal punishment. (that is what Damned means.)

He says that an unrepentant wife slapper will be punished exactly the same as a multiple child rapist/murderer. And that both punishments will last for eternity with no hope of mercy.

Mercy was and is always on offer to all in this life.
but if at the time of Judgment they still reject this offer then they chose hell.
If in your court the slapper refused to recognise that what he did was wrong,
would you send him home unpunished, based on your assumption that he might change his mind at some point in the future.
No (I assume) you would not.
you would hand down a punishment for his assaulting his wife.
so you sentence him to cleaning the public toilets for the next year.
After 2 weeks he decides he hates this punishment and wants to apologise and be let free.
do you wipe out the sentence, no.
He had his chance in your court to repent of his actions and he (of his own free will) decided that his laws were better than the courts laws.

If he did repent whilst in your court and was genuine, you would still judge him and
hand down a sentence, perhaps 1 years counselling & some anger management.

As I said in a previous post.

Correct the repentant still suffers for their deeds.
It’s called Purgatory and it’s far worse than anything you or I could do to them.
If you break a window and you are truly sorry to its owner, that may show him that you have changed your ways but you still have to pay for the repairs. Same with this sinner who has repented he still pays for his evil deeds.

So the punishment for the wife slapper might be 1 year in Purgatory,
but the punishment for the rapist/murder will be proportionately weighted to his sins,
and he will be sentenced to the fires of Purgatory for a much greater amount of time.

With respect Bradski your plan, your human desire for vengeance is flawed.
(how does the rapist/murderer pay if he dies peacefully in his sleep that night?)
God’s plan is perfect, every person goes before the judgment and must answer for
every thought, word and action they brought forward in life.
And every one will be judged accordingly and proportionately.
Again with respect Bradski your plan, is to pass judgment based on
how you feel in **your **heart, towards these men and their deeds.
God’s judgement is based on how these men feel in their own hearts
about what they have thought, said and done.

 

[Bradski]

So the punishment for the wife slapper might be 1 year in Purgatory,
but the punishment for the rapist/murder will be proportionately weighted to his sins,
and he will be sentenced to the fires of Purgatory for a much greater amount of time.

Well, there you go then. Can’t see much need for a hell if there is proportional punishment in the form of purgatory. Who wouldn’t repent if they were being tortured?

And before you head off to say that God would know that it wasn’t a genuine repentance, that works both ways. If you want to steal something and you don’t because you are afraid of hell, then God knows you are not a genuinely good person. You still need to repent. But God is listening to that little voice in the background which is saying: ‘Yes, I really want to take that’.

Repentance is not: ‘I didn’t do it (but I would have if I knew I wouldn’t get caught)’. You get the eternal fires, chum.

 

[ericc]

Who wouldn’t repent if they were being tortured?

.

That is not genuine repentance. If there is no punishment,then the repentance wouldn’t be forthcoming? So if hell is not an unpleasant place, then there is no reason for repentance then for the hell dweller then. And that’s why they are there, the unrepentant sinner. When the heat gets turn up, all became repentant but not before?

I mentioned previously that “repentance” under such circumstances does not carry much credibility. Like admitting guilt under duress just for the sake of avoidance of pain even though innocent. But all this is a moot point. No one gets out of hell. Period.

 

[ericc]

And before you head off to say that God would know that it wasn’t a genuine repentance, that works both ways. If you want to steal something and you don’t because you are afraid of hell, then God knows you are not a genuinely good person. You still need to repent. But God is listening to that little voice in the background which is saying: ‘Yes, I really want to take that’.

Repentance is not: ‘I didn’t do it (but I would have if I knew I wouldn’t get caught)’. You get the eternal fires, chum.

That is not repentance. That is obedience. Whether we obey God out of love or fear, the result end up the same. God knows man respond in different ways. Obviously, obeying out of love may be deemed superior. Which parents don’t use reward/punishment to cajole their child to do or not to do certain behavior? To get a certain result out of them for their own good? To get them to do their homework, to study, to be nice to others, not to steal, lie, hurt their younger siblings, snatch the neighbors kid’s toys etc God does this all the time to the Israelites. Bless them with good things when they stay faithful, and punish them when they turn away from God. Secular governments do that too. I believe this is universal.

But typically it is a mixed bag of emotions when someone is considering doing something naughty. There is the fear factor, excitement factor, mental anguish of knowing that it is wrong and yet? Knowing that one can get punished if caught and yet what if it is not detected? Knowing that doing it may hurt your own sense of responsibility, integrity, and hurting the people round you if they come to know of it, shame, embarrassment, lose of prestige and reputation, lose of face etc. It may not be just fear of God alone.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Well, there you go then. Can’t see much need for a hell if there is proportional punishment in the form of purgatory. Who wouldn’t repent if they were being tortured?

Who is being tortured into repenting???

Purgatory ends, Hell does not.

 

[Bradski]

Who is being tortured into repenting???

Purgatory ends, Hell does not.

It ends because…?

 

[You]

It ends because…?

“I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite.” ?

And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just? And when thou goest with thy adversary to the prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered from him: lest perhaps he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite.

 

[truetofaith]

Well, there you go then. Can’t see much need for a hell if there is proportional punishment in the form of purgatory. Who wouldn’t repent if they were being tortured?

And before you head off to say that God would know that it wasn’t a genuine repentance, that works both ways. If you want to steal something and you don’t because you are afraid of hell, then God knows you are not a genuinely good person. You still need to repent. But God is listening to that little voice in the background which is saying: ‘Yes, I really want to take that’.

Repentance is not: ‘I didn’t do it (but I would have if I knew I wouldn’t get caught)’. You get the eternal fires, chum.

There is perfect & imperfect contrition. With imperfect contrition you must go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist.

 

[Ridgerunner]

But how can anyone truly choose hell, something that is completely beyond human comprehension? For an all-loving God to condemn people to hell because they “choose” it seems like a parent letting their child get hit by a car because they “chose” to play in the street.

No one rational person could possibly “choose” unbearable suffering for all eternity, which leaves one of these possibilities:

1. God allows irrational people to go to hell, and therefore is not all-loving or all-just (at least insofar as our limited human minds can perceive it).
2. Hell is somehow something that some people might truly prefer to heaven, but this would seem to go against the very concept of hell.
3. Hell does not exist.

Mike

I will agree with this much. In our day-to-day lives we probably cannot imagine what hell is, any more than we can truly imagine what heaven is.

But is that always true? We are informed that, at our judgments, we will see the true nature of our offenses against God, and that the vision will be horrific. Will we see only that? Will we feel “tricked” in learning that our deeds merit hell on a “cosmic” scale while our understanding was only on an earthly scale?

We tend to think of it in that way, which is probably unfortunate.

In the early part of the 20th Century, St. Therese of Lisieux was enormously popular among Catholics, much more so than now. Why is that? Well, I think it’s probably because people read then and read much of her works, while now people don’t read at all.

Some of her statements are truly intriguing. For example, she said that even if she committed every sin there was to commit, she would not fear hell. Why? Because she loved God and knew she did. That didn’t spare her a “dark night of the soul” which no few saints experience. But she never abandoned it. Among other things, she believed that somewhere around our death (she never really said it was before, during or after) we would see our sins with total clarity. It would be a devastating revelation, so devastating, she said, that we would throw ourselves into hell immediately except that we would also be presented with God’s love and offered forgiveness. Some of us would accept it fully. Some of us would feel we needed purification to be in God’s presence and welcome purgatory as a gift. Some of us would, in our pride, be indignant at the revelation…not in an emotional sort of way, but in a totally clear way. We would curse God, reject His love and mercy and choose self-worship for all eternity, knowing precisely what that meant.

Hard to picture anybody deliberately choosing hell, but we can sort of stretch our minds to get it somewhat.

Some people have thought of her view as nigh onto heretical. After all, does that really work with our “bean counting” sort of view of sin and its consequences; a very natural thing for people to do, given that we really do think of everything else in life as a balancing of bad deeds versus good ones? It doesn’t. I recall St. Therese’s account of a nun in her convent lamenting that “her hands” had not done enough good deeds in life to “merit” heaven. Ste Therese saw that as entirely irrelevant to the issue of salvation. It was “bean counting” taken to the extreme.

Are we really, in this life, trying to tip the scale of our deeds in favor of salvation, or are we doing something else? I recall reading that ancient Egyptians believed that in their journey through the underworld, a monster would put their hearts on one side of a scale and a feather on the other side. If the sinful burden of their hearts outweighed the feather, they would be eaten by a monster.

Is that how we see God? Well, I think a lot of times that’s exactly how we see Him. It’s the “natural”, the “human” thing to do. We please a boss at our work and we get promoted. We displease him and we get fired. That’s how life on this earth works for the most part.

Ste Therese’s “answer” to that was her parable of the king and the rabbit. The king is out hunting. The rabbit sees him coming and runs, but the king pursues. The rabbit tries every rabbit trick there is, but still the king pursues. Finally, the rabbit is cornered and exhausted and the king approaches. So what does the desperate rabbit do?

He leaps into the arms of the king. The king has pity and the rabbit is saved.

That’s a very different vision of our relationship with God than that which we often have.

How do we manage to jump into the arms of the King instead of cursing Him for daring to show us the full measure of our sins? Well, Ste Therese’s approach was, in effect, to “train” herself to love God by her “little way”. She was constantly conscious that her every act (not one of which ever amounted to much in human terms) could be offered to God out of gratitude for allowing her to be on this earth and later joining Him at all; not as a means of “balancing the scale” or “earning salvation”, but as a matter of “self-training” in love.

Was she right? Well, she has been named as one of the “Doctors of the Church” so it’s hard to say she wasn’t.

Is her vision one of injustice on God’s part? Hard to see how it would be, since in it, God never does ask us to do anything beyond human capability. According to Ste Therese, He only asks our love. If we earnestly try to do it, even if we do it poorly, (which we surely will) we will be able to leap into the arms of the King.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Adding just a bit here. Do we all get a shot at “final penitence”? Perhaps we do. And how long is that period of final penitence, realizing as we do that for God there is no time? And at the point of death, do we go “outside time” as well in His presence?

These are things we don’t know.

But I do think sometimes we are inclined to think of salvation in a very limited way. None of that excuses us from knowing and acting on what’s right and what’s wrong. We should be truthful to ourselves to know when we’re sinning, admit it, and to repent of it.

 

[steve_b]

Yes, I am. Because my punishment is proportionate to the crime. The crime against humanity. Not the crime against God.

Sin offends God who is eternal. Venial as well as mortal sin. Grave sin / mortal sin, otoh, isn’t purified in purgatory like venial sin is. Mortal sin offends the eternal God grievously, for all eternity unless repented of. If one doesn’t repent of mortal sin and dies in that sin, they pay an eternal price. We wouldn’t know this unless it was revealed to us by God. Obviously people who don’t think God even exists, can take their chances He doesn’t exist or any punishment in the afterlife which they probably don’t believe in either… Personally I think that’s a bet no one should ever take.

 

[Bradski]

Personally I think that’s a bet no one should ever take.

What are you doing?
I’m repenting for what I did last night.
But you didn’t do anything wrong.
Yeah, I know.
To whom are you repenting?
To God.
But you don’t believe He exists.
Yeah, I know.
Why do it then?
Because I might end up in hell.
But you don’t think hell exists.
Yeah, I know. but hey…I might be wrong, so just in case, eh?

 

[steve_b]

What are you doing?
I’m repenting for what I did last night.
But you didn’t do anything wrong.
Yeah, I know.
To whom are you repenting?
To God.
But you don’t believe He exists.
Yeah, I know.
Why do it then?
Because I might end up in hell.
But you don’t think hell exists.
Yeah, I know. but hey…I might be wrong, so just in case, eh?

You responded #137 to this post #136
and I responded to you #150

Since you don’t believe in God, that’s why I made the following point

“Obviously people who don’t think God even exists, can take their chances He doesn’t exist or any punishment in the afterlife which they probably don’t believe in either”

I also said " Personally I think that’s a bet no one should ever take"

For repentance to be effective one has to be serious with God. It can’t be faked and have it be effective.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, I am. Because my punishment is proportionate to the crime. The crime against humanity. Not the crime against God.

He says that an unrepentant wife slapper will be punished exactly the same as a multiple child rapist/murderer. And that both punishments will last for eternity with no hope of mercy.

If I said I was going to torment someone for 10 years continuously for his sins, you would say that nothing he could have done would justify it. That I was a sadist. You’d be right.

Well, the alternative is that he is punished not at all, if he eventually is going to end up in heaven for an eternity anyway.

 

[PRmerger]

It ends because…?

Your soul has been made fully clean. Perfect. There is no more stain of sin. No attachment to sin.

#readyforheaven

 

[Bradski]

Well, the alternative is that he is punished not at all, if he eventually is going to end up in heaven for an eternity anyway.

I think you need to sort this out with the aptly named Purgatory Pete. He thinks that this (Edited) solves the problem of all or nothing.

In fact, I’m something of a fan of this idea. Proportional punishment. Who could argue with that.

 

[Bradski]

Ahem. I believe that my flippant description of an aspect of Catholic belief should have been couched in a more respectful tone. My apologies to all who may have read it before it was edited and were offended.

It was purgatory to which I was referring.

 

[PRmerger]

I think you need to sort this out with the aptly named Purgatory Pete. He thinks that this (Edited) solves the problem of all or nothing.

In fact, I’m something of a fan of this idea. Proportional punishment. Who could argue with that.

Sure. I’m good with that, too.