How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?

[josh987654321]

Josh: And you are…?

Okay.

John: Hi. You probably don’t know me, but I was the one that raped and murdered your children.

I don’t at all think such a thing would/could play out in heaven, but to accommodate your analogy.

“My Children are here with me, and if you were still that person in the slightest, you would not be here.”

Josh: Oh, hi. How are you? So nice to meet you. Have you met my wife? Hon, look who’s here. You’ll never guess!

"The Gospel of Matthew:

29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

The book of revelations show a little of what it would be like in heaven I believe.

Mmm. Doesn’t seem to work for me.

I think there is a bigger problem here, which is to do with forgiveness.

“Hating someone is like drinking a poison and expecting the other person to die.”

I want you to think of the most vile and hateful act you can, than intensify it by a thousand, and pretend as if it happened to you, now hate that man/woman with everything you have, consume your whole life with unspeakable hatred toward that person because of what they did … now you have the ability to torture and hurt that man with everything you have to the fullest extent, after unleashing all your hatred on them… tell me, has anything changed? did that hatred help you in any way? did exacting vengeance help you in any way? did it undo the damage that was done? or did it only intensify the harm they caused and your hatred for them?

Hatred begets hatred, vengeance begets vengeance, Jesus said to St Faustina, +Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy. (Diary, 300)

Dr Phil once said, *“Don’t get caught up in whether your situation is fair or unfair, get over it and figure out how to win.” *I believe forgiving is how you win, because it frees you (Then with clarity you can see what needs to be done without your judgment being clouded with hatred, anger, resentment or vengeance), and if the other party is repentant, it produces great fruit in them too.

I believe there is nothing to be gained by harboring emotions of hatred, anger or resentment toward someone … nothing but more pain and heartache for yourself and others.

I think it’s important to look at what hatred and vengeance are and what they do, if someone mistreats you, how does hating them help you?

If you feel hatred, anger or resentment, than you own those feelings and that is why there only is one thing worse than being hurt by someone and that is keeping that hurt alive, you have the ability to forgive those people who have mistreated you, not simply as a gift to them, but as a gift to yourself.

Forgiveness will set you free from pain others have caused you in your life, forgiveness will free you from the hatred anger or resentment that you carry.

To assume that you can turn your feelings of hate, anger or resentment on and off like a light switch is naïve, these feelings of bitterness and anger are such powerful influences that once they enter your heart, they are present in all of your relationships. They truly do make you become a different person. Who you were goes away, and now you are defined by the hatred and bitterness. Ultimately, what makes these emotions so powerful is that they change who you are. Your hatred, anger, and resentment are absolutely incompatible with your peace, joy, and relaxation.

I believe There is something else you must consider: you cannot give away what you do not have.

You cannot give pure and accepting love from a pure and accepting heart if you have neither. That would mean giving away what you do not have. If the love in your heart is contaminated, if growing within it is the cancer of hatred, anger, and resentment, then that is the only love that you have to give. If your heart has turned cold and hard because of hatred, anger, and resentment, then that is the heart from which all your emotions spring. That is the love and that is the heart that you have to offer your loved ones and fellow human beings. Hatred, anger, and resentment truly change who you are. They truly prevent you from being able to give to those you love that which you want them to have.

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[josh987654321]

Many people say: “I can’t forgive because they aren’t sorry and they don’t deserve or even want my forgiveness.” If that’s the standard, there are many people in this world who, clearly, will never be entitled to forgiveness, however; forgiveness is about you, it’s about the gift of freeing yourself from such ugly emotions, you didn’t do the crime, so why do the additional time?

It’s about you saying *"I will not bond with you through hatred, anger, or resentment. I will not bond with you through fear. I will not allow you to drag me into your dark world. By forgiving you, I am releasing me, not you. You must live with yourself every day. You must live with the darkness in your heart. But I do not, and I will not, You are the one who committed the crime, I don’t have to continue to suffer for it and I refuse to, by forgiving you I am releasing myself from that emotional prison you have locked me in, you cannot mistreat me and than continue hurting me through those feelings of hatred, anger or resentment, I make that choice, not you.” *

Take the power back from those who have hurt you. The power of forgiveness is the power to set yourself free from the bonds of hatred, anger, and resentment. Seize the power and rise above the pain. You are worth it, and everyone you love deserves it.

(Christ told us that our Hearts are where our treasure is. Matthew 6:19-21) It’s a treasure that does not rust and cannot be stolen! It can only be thrown away, and we throw it away when we harbor those ugly emotions of hatred anger, or resentment toward someone who has mistreated us, take the power back from those who have hurt you! take your treasure back! Forgiveness is a gift! reclaim your heart!

“Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.” - Romans 12:21

In saying all of this, I would also like to say that I believe forgiveness doesn’t mean putting yourself in vulnerable situations though, as it says in the gospels 6 *“Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine." Matthew 7:6 and 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." *Matthew 10:17

Forgiveness is a choice. Don’t wait for it to just wash over you all of a sudden. You have to choose it. - Dr Phil

Don’t give your power away. The pain of what happened is inevitable, but continuing to suffer is optional. The only person you can control is you. By constantly re-living the pain of what happened, you are giving your power away to the person who wronged you. - Dr Phil

Don’t cling to negative feelings. Anger is nothing more than an outward sign of hurt, fear, guilt, grief or frustration. While the pain may never completely disappear, forgiveness can help you release the anger and bring those in your life closer to you. - Dr Phil

There is no right timeline for recovery. For some people, making peace happens suddenly and spontaneously. For others, it takes time and effort. You may have to make a conscious choice every day to forgive. To say, “I’m letting this go. I’m not going to invest hatred, bitterness, anger, resentment in this person anymore.” You can find closure in forgiveness. - Dr Phil

You can’t change the things that happened in your life, but you can decide how you interpret and respond to them. If you didn’t receive support when you needed it, give it to yourself now. - Dr Phil
The Gospel of Matthew:

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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[josh987654321]

Extract from the book 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis:

Forgiveness

I said in a previous chapter that chastity was the most unpopular of the Christian virtues. But I am not sure I was right. I believe there is one even more unpopular. It is laid down in the Christian rule, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’ Because in Christian morals ‘thy neighbor’ includes ‘thy enemy’, and so we come up against this terrible duty of forgiving our enemies.

Every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive, as we had during the war. And then, to mention the subject at all is to be greeted with howls of anger. It is not that people think this too high and difficult a virtue: it is that they think it hateful and contemptible. ‘That sort of talk makes them sick,’ they say. And half of you already want to ask me, ‘I wonder how you’d feel about forgiving the Gestapo if you were a Pole or a Jew?’

So do I. I wonder very much. Just as when Christianity tells me that I must not deny my religion even to save myself from death by torture, I wonder very much what I should do when it came to the point. I am not trying to tell you in this book what I could do - I can do precious little - I am telling you what Christianity is. I did not invent it. And there, right in the middle of it, I find ‘Forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us.’ There is no slightest suggestion that we are offered forgiveness on any other terms. It is made perfectly clear that if we do not forgive we shall not be forgiven. There are no two ways about it. What are we to do?

It is going to be hard enough, anyway, but I think there are two things we can do to make it easier. When you start mathematics you do not begin with the calculus; you begin with simple addition. In the same way, if we really want (but all depends on really wanting) to learn how to forgive, perhaps we had better start with something easier than the Gestapo. One might start with forgiving one’s husband or wife, or parents or children, or nearest N.C.O., for something they have done or said in the last week. That will probably keep us busy for the moment. And secondly, we might try to understand exactly what loving you neighbor as yourself means. I have to love him as I love myself. Well, how exactly do I love myself?

Now that I come to think of it, I have not exactly got a feeling of fondness or affection for myself, and I do not even always enjoy my own society. So apparently ‘love your neighbor’ does not mean ‘feel fond of him’ or ‘find him attractive’. I ought to have seen that before, because, of course, you cannot feel fond of a person by trying. Do I think well of myself, think myself a nice chap? Well, I am afraid I sometimes do (and those are, no doubt, my worst moments) but that is not why I love myself. In fact it is the other way round: my self-love makes me think myself nice, but thinking myself nice is not why I love myself. So loving my enemies does not apparently mean thinking them nice either. That is an enormous relief. For a good many people imagine that forgiving your enemies means making out that they are really not such bad fellows after all, when it is quite plain that they are. Go a step further. In my most clear-sighted moments not only do I not think myself a nice man, but I know that I am a very nasty one. I can look at some of the things I’ve done with horror and loathing. So apparently I am allowed to loath and hate some of the things my enemies do. Now that I come to think of it, I remember Christian teachers telling me long ago that I must hate a bad man’s actions, but not hate the bad man; or, as they would say, hate the sin but not the sinner.

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[josh987654321]

Continued:

For a long time I used to think this a silly straw-splitting distinction: how could you hate what a man did and not hate the man? but years later it occurred to me that there was one man to whom I had been doing this all my life - namely myself. However much I might dislike my own cowardice or conceit or greed, I went on loving myself. There had never been the slightest difficulty about it. In fact the very reason why I hated the things was because I loved the man. Just because I loved myself, I was sorry to find I was the sort of man who did those things. Consequently, Christianity does not want us to reduce by one atom the hatred we feel for cruelty and treachery. We ought to hate them. Not one word of what we have said about them needs to be unsaid. But it does want us to hate them in the same way in which we hate things in ourselves: being sorry that the man should have done such things, and hoping, if it is anyway possible, that somehow, sometime, somewhere, he can be cured and made human again.

The real test is this. Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling , ‘Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,’ or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally, we shall insist on seeing everything - God and our friends and ourselves included - as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed forever in a universe of pure hatred.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Trident_H]

Hey, chill out, Trident. If you are working through issues, then for what it’s worth, I hope you manage to sort them out.

Well thank you for that. Maybe I owe you an apology. And maybe I don’t. I don’t know. I’ll lean on the side of caution. I’ll apologize. That way if we end up as accidental neighbors in whatever afterlife. Either one. We can be good friends. For all eternity.

And also, for what it’s worth, I don’t think that a fear of hell is in any way at all a good thing to have when one is feeling less than happy with the direction their life has taken. No-one is going to convince me that the threat of eternal punishment is the way to a stable mind set when we are often a passenger in life and we have little or no control of our thoughts and emotions.

Oh I don’t know Bradski. I think the fear of hell has kept me from going after a much desired revenge. I think you’re missing some uses for this. On my roller coaster ride that’s called life it’s kept my feet in the car. Don’t be so sure it only works one way.

Agreed, my good Bradski…

And you’re a very poor choice for a friend sometimes. But I guess you can’t help that. You probably don’t even realize that. I still love you man. Because of the other things you’ve done for me.So this is me forgiving you.

Peace Jelrak.

-Trident

 

[Bradski]

Maybe I owe you an apology.

No, you don’t. I think that your impression of me is closer to reality than my impression is of you. But we play the cards we are dealt.

Oh I don’t know Bradski. I think the fear of hell has kept me from going after a much desired revenge.

Well, maybe it has. In your situation. In your position. With your beliefs. That doesn’t make it a good thing. Wouldn’t you agree that you should do things because you consider them to be ‘the right thing’ to do as opposed to doing them for fear of punishment? Incidentally, what you consider to be ‘the right thing’ and whether it is correct or not is irrelevant.

 

[ericc]

Yet your entire post is just that.

Not true, you were the one doing the speculation what could be an exit strategy out of hell. I told you need not spend time on speculating that, not going to happen. Now you attribute me to doing the speculation. Interesting tactic.

 

[Bradski]

Would a Just God deny anyone who is genuinely repentant?
and would a Just God accept anyone who is not?

Who was talking about God? I wasn’t. I was talking about a couple of guys chewing the fat in heaven. God can make His own mind up about who is saved or not.

There seems to be a consensus that when you are dead, it is too late to repent. That is, whatever your crime, you can repent before you shuffle of this mortal coil and you get an eternity of bliss.

Well, pardon me, but the point for me comes when the person, with full intent, commits the crime. Personally speaking, he is damned from that point. You don’t get a get-out-jail card for repentance at some later time, genuine or not.

Someone that raped and killed my child is damned. For eternity. I don’t give a damn how much he repents. I don’t care how much of a changed man he has become. Using the same argument as a Christian would make (it’s too late to repent after you are dead), I say that it’s too late to avoid punishment once the crime has been committed.

Naturally, any argument against that will say: But Bradski, isn’t there a chance, after the crime has been committed, after due process, after a reasonable amount of time, that the person will genuinely repent?

Well, yes. There is. But your system doesn’t allow it.

 

[Trident_H]

No, you don’t. I think that your impression of me is closer to reality than my impression is of you. But we play the cards we are dealt.

Well for what it’s worth my impression of you just went up a notch.

Well, maybe it has. In your situation. In your position. With your beliefs. That doesn’t make it a good thing. Wouldn’t you agree that you should do things because you consider them to be ‘the right thing’ to do as opposed to doing them for fear of punishment?

Sure. We’d all love to do the right thing. For the right reasons. And then win a medal.

But sometimes we also need a reason not to do something that’s bigger than ourselves. Sometimes when seeing red in things. When really in the heat of a mix up. We need to remember that we don’t make our own rules. Because otherwise changing the rules to fit the situation’s easy. I mean how hard is it to justify a thing that a guy wouldn’t have thought about doing last week? In order to do it today? I’m sure you can think of examples. Of things you wouldn’t have wanted to have had happen to you. But then you did them to someone else for a reason that you were comfortable with. For a reason that didn’t let you feel guilty about it later.

Well hell can keep a guy from doing that. It can really make a guy wait before acting on the small things. So that he doesn’t get all caught up in his own personal morality and ever-shifting degrees of when and where and how. That’s not a bad thing. I don’t think.

But there’s also another reason. Maybe a more important one. Because in knowing or thinking about what hell feels like. Well a guy would never want to bring someone else into that. A guy would never want to push someone into a spot of joining them in something that’s not right. Because a guy wouldn’t want that other person to suffer for it later. A guy wouldn’t want that on his conscience too.

But Bradski I don’t want to lead you down a garden path in this. Because as you know I think heaven and hell are two sides of the same coin. I don’t think it’s a physical place like we’re used to. I think it’s just a natural result of full truth being revealed to us. I think it’s a consequence of action. Not doled out in a forceful way. But just accepted as being what it is. I mean if in the end a guy’s finally shown that his life’s led to more suffering than positives. Well how’s he supposed to life happy in heaven with that? Especially as he watches his evil go on from generation to generation. I mean I think full truth hits us. And full feeling for that truth. So for some it’s gonna be pretty good. While for others it’s going to be a very painful thing.

At least that’s how I feel about it. That’s why I’m trying to do more good than bad now. Because my quota of bad has been used up. It’s a full measure already. And my opportunity for good is pretty limited. So I’m a bit anxious in that. But what I don’t need is for a guy to come along and try to tell me none of it matters. Because man. Even if heaven and hell don’t exist. Even if it’s all a lie. Well would you rather a guy like me to still try to do more good than harm? Or are you cool with me going back to my darker ways. Going back to taking what I can from life. Because really. What else do you think’s going to motivate a guy like me? Promises of hugs and kisses and a nice pat on the head? Promises of a feel-good moment?

Nah. Drugs can make me feel as good as I want. I don’t need the complication of thinking about other people too. Just buy my stuff. And keep me in the cycle. No big deal.

If life’s just a limited ride. Well why not? I’ll take the ride. I’ll push the limit. I don’t have to care.

But remind me that I’m going to be faced with caring for all eternity? Forced to care without an off switch? Well man. I’m going to be about 1000 times more careful. I’m going to watch where I put my feet. Because I know I can’t risk feeling this bad for an eternity. I can’t. So instead of taking a coward’s way out here. Instead of just finding a nice place to dive. I have to work it through. I have to mend the fences. I have to fix what’s broken in me. And try. Try really really hard. To see if I can fix what I’ve broken in other people too. By reaching out to anyone I can. By trying to help in any way. So I can pay down my debts. Before it’s too late. Before the whole thing gets foreclosed. And I’m forever stuck on the outside looking in.

Incidentally, what you consider to be ‘the right thing’ and whether it is correct or not is irrelevant.

I don’t really understand this sentence. I don’t know how what I think is the right thing is irrelevant. I mean I can understand if what I consider to be the right thing and what is actually correct might be different. I can understand that. But I’m just not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Ok now I’m sort of sorry I got into a bad vibe with you. I think I overreacted. To maybe a fair comment. So here’s me apologizing for real. And hoping you’ll be good enough to accept it.

Peace Bradski.

-Trident

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Who was talking about God? I wasn’t. I was talking about a couple of guys chewing the fat in heaven. God can make His own mind up about who is saved or not.

• • • (SNIP)- - -
      Naturally, any argument against that will say: But Bradski, isn’t there a chance, after the crime has been committed, after due process, after a reasonable amount of time, that the person will genuinely repent?
      Well, yes. There is. But your system doesn’t allow it.

Actually it’s your system that doesn’t allow it.

Well, pardon me, but the point for me comes when the person, with full intent, commits the crime. Personally speaking, he is damned from that point. I say that it’s too late to avoid punishment once the crime has been committed.

Correct the repentant still suffers for their deeds.
It’s called Purgatory and it’s far worse than anything you or I could do to them.
If you break a window and you are truly sorry to its owner, that may show him that you have changed your ways but you still have to pay for the repairs. Same with this sinner who has repented he still pays for his evil deeds.

Naturally, any argument against that will say: But Bradski, isn’t there a chance, after the crime has been committed, after due process, after a reasonable amount of time, that the person will genuinely repent? Well, yes. There is.

I’m glad you agree with us.

Who was talking about God? I wasn’t.

This thread is talking about God, How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell? and you joined in the conversation.

I was talking about a couple of guys chewing the fat in heaven. God can make His own mind up about who is saved or not.

Apparently He can’t, or you would accept the way He judges.

But let’s look at it this way, what if this same person committed these terrible deeds
and that night he dies peacefully in his sleep. Our system has him in his UN-repentant
state, going to hell. Standing next to him is the father of his victims, the father is in hell because he struck a child with his car and drove off in a panic, leaving the child to die.
even though the father is devastated, ashamed and fully repentant of his acts your system has him in hell with the unrepentant killer.
Is it Just that these two are punished equally?
Or is there room for forgiveness to the one who admits his error?

Still curious :tiphat:

 

[Bradski]

Well hell can keep a guy from doing that. It can really make a guy wait before acting on the small things. So that he doesn’t get all caught up in his own personal morality and ever-shifting degrees of when and where and how. That’s not a bad thing. I don’t think.

Well, maybe it’s just me, but I’d rather trust someone who was doing the right thing because he knew that it was the right thing to do. Rather than him saying – well, I don’t want to get punished for this. It would be impossible to tell if he knew he was acting morally or just acting out of fear.

If life’s just a limited ride. Well why not? I’ll take the ride. I’ll push the limit. I don’t have to care.

That’s absolute bollox. And I think you know that. You, and all the rest of us, need to treat this as a one off, whether it is or it isn’t. No eternal bliss if we’re good and no torment if we’re bad. Follow Christian ethics if you like. Base your life on what Jesus taught. Read your bible, study the catechism and be the person your religion wants you to be. I’ll follow my own path. Then we won’t have any problems. And if it turns out that there is an afterlife, you’ll get an entry ticket and I’ll see you at the Pearly Gates.

But if someone does good because they think that there’s an afterlife and avoids doing bad because they are afraid of hell, then they aren’t solving any problems that they might have. They’re doing the right thing for the wrong reason. That’s a good place to be.

I don’t really understand this sentence. I don’t know how what I think is the right thing is irrelevant. I mean I can understand if what I consider to be the right thing and what is actually correct might be different. I can understand that. But I’m just not sure what this is supposed to mean.

It means that in the first instance you have to decide yourself what it is to be good. You may be wrong. Hopefully you aren’t. It’s not a statement a Christian could really make because I’d assume that any given Christian is committed to their faith. There’s no picking and choosing the bits you like and discarding the bits you don’t. I don’t have that.

But let’s look at it this way, what if this same person committed these terrible deeds
and that night he dies peacefully in his sleep. Our system has him in his UN-repentant
state, going to hell. Standing next to him is the father of his victims, the father is in hell because he struck a child with his car and drove off in a panic, leaving the child to die.
even though the father is devastated, ashamed and fully repentant of his acts your system has him in hell with the unrepentant killer.
Is it Just that these two are punished equally?
Or is there room for forgiveness to the one who admits his error?

Forget the guy in the car. I’ve already offered a scenario. If you rape and kill dozens of children or strike your wife, then assuming that you are unrepentant, the punishment is exactly the same.

Are you OK with that?

 

[josh987654321]

.

In my view I think it’s kind of like learning/teaching, you can teach the guy who say’s he doesn’t know and wants to learn, no matter how ignorant or stupid he might be. You can’t teach the guy who say’s he knows and doesn’t want to learn, no matter how clever or smart he is.

In the same way, God can work with a repentant man, no matter how bad the sins, whereas he cannot work with an unrepentant man, no matter how small the sins.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Trident_H]

Well, maybe it’s just me, but I’d rather trust someone who was doing the right thing because he knew that it was the right thing to do. Rather than him saying – well, I don’t want to get punished for this. It would be impossible to tell if he knew he was acting morally or just acting out of fear.

Nah Bradski. I don’t have a natural compass in all things. I mean I’m not gonna steal from you because you’re a guy with a name. But if I was at some gigantic multinational store and I found a simple way to make a buck off their own stupidity I might be tempted. Because I can figure that upstream somewhere they’re ripping off their suppliers by paying them starvation wages. And then marking things up 1000% and making all the money in the middle. So I have no natural sympathy for them. I don’t care. I can sleep easy.

But as a Christian I have to figure it based on an absolute. I have to remember that it’s not about who it hurts (like maybe some faceless rich shareholders who earn more in a minute than I do in a year) that makes it wrong. But instead it’s about it just being wrong. At this point it’s not even just a fear of punishment. It’s not even a fear that I’ll regret it later. It’s just a much plainer black and white ethic. And I mean maybe you Bradski would never do such a thing. Maybe you’d never care to explore that zone. But a guy like me might. Because when another day without enough money for food starts up. Well crazy things start making sense.

Now I’m not saying I’m in that position now. But I was. And it really wasn’t that long ago either. So the memory’s pretty fresh.

So yeah. Like in all things I’d rather deal with a guy who did good because it was the right thing to do. But then I’d turn to you and ask you why it was the right thing to do. I mean strip away empathy. Strip away compassion. Because you can do that with people you don’t agree with. You can do that in so many small ways. Without it even really mattering.

So with all that set aside. Why is doing something right even right to start with? Why isn’t doing something clever the right way to go? Or doing something powerful? Or doing something cool? Or doing something to level the playing field? I don’t know. Once there’s no real firm basis for things you’re leaving a lot on the shoulders of the single guy. And not all of us think the same. Not all of us value things the same way. I mean I’m going to lean harder on things that are further away from what I can empathize with. I’m going to base everything on how it affects me. Because doing anything else doesn’t really seem that rational.

That’s absolute bollox. And I think you know that. You, and all the rest of us, need to treat this as a one off, whether it is or it isn’t. No eternal bliss if we’re good and no torment if we’re bad. Follow Christian ethics if you like. Base your life on what Jesus taught. Read your bible, study the catechism and be the person your religion wants you to be. I’ll follow my own path. Then we won’t have any problems. And if it turns out that there is an afterlife, you’ll get an entry ticket and I’ll see you at the Pearly Gates.

But if someone does good because they think that there’s an afterlife and avoids doing bad because they are afraid of hell, then they aren’t solving any problems that they might have. They’re doing the right thing for the wrong reason. That’s a good place to be.

I don’t know man. I mean I don’t owe you anything. But if you’d met me last year? I don’t think I’d have cared much if you were in my way. I was ready enough to let life end with me in that kind of state. So I think you’re wrong to think that everyone’s as one-directional as you are. Some of us need an extra push to walk the line. Because if I figured my life was a short stop? Well why the hell would I bother going through all the agony I’m dealing with now? I would have just lived it hard. And fast. And let it burn out. I mean I’m tempted enough now to just ditch. Tell me there’s no point in hanging on for the rest of my days. Tell me I’ve got no real purpose behind the 4 walls of my room. Tell me there are no real consequences. Tell me trying to redeem myself is pointless outside of altruism. And then I’ll be glad enough to hit the fast forward button. Because I don’t see a thrilling purpose in getting old. And remembering things you can’t change. And dying a bit more each day. I’m too impatient a sort for that.

I mean maybe it’d be different if I had a family. Or something to hitch myself to. But if what I’m living is the sum total purpose? **** I can find myself a much better time. I can find a much shorter distance between two points for sure.

It means that in the first instance you have to decide yourself what it is to be good. You may be wrong. Hopefully you aren’t. It’s not a statement a Christian could really make because I’d assume that any given Christian is committed to their faith. There’s no picking and choosing the bits you like and discarding the bits you don’t. I don’t have that.

I guess that’ll do.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Forget the guy in the car. I’ve already offered a scenario. If you rape and kill dozens of children or strike your wife, then assuming that you are unrepentant, the punishment is exactly the same.
Are you OK with that?

Yes, I have always been ok with the unrepentant getting what they earn.
Both people in this scenario have looked on their victims as something
below them, things not deserving of the dignity and love that they themselves
expect from others. Then if both always desire this control over others they’ll end up in hell.

Your scenario is based on person 1 committing a crime against his fellow man, a crime of epic proportions. And person two committing a much smaller crime against his fellow man.
Relatively speaking then, person 1 caused more harm than person 2 and should be punished accordingly, and this is correct for what society wants here on earth.

In Gods view, both persons had the same intent in their hearts, which was to dominate the other person/people for their own satisfaction and sense of power.
(big or small the initial intent is identical)
just as stealing $1 has the initial identical intent as does stealing $100,000,000.
Theft is theft is theft.
In human reasoning stealing ones hair brush is nothing big, but stealing their car is huge.
In Gods reasoning the intent is identical. Human judgment is based on the end result.
God’s is based on the initial desire.

The two men will be judged on what their intent was and on whether that intent changed or not. If it genuinely changed then they could make purgatory, if they have not changed,
then they have not found error in their intent and their permanent love of this error will
see them enter into hell, of their own free choice.

God will judge these men on how they judged their own thoughts towards their victims.

We have all done things (big or small), we wish we could take back but can’t.
Purgatory gives us that chance, but if we reject that final chance then what else
is God to do but to set us free on the path we have desired most.
Big or small, the desire to deliberately reject God’s plan is identical.
Are you ok with that?

 

[Bradski]

Big or small, the desire to deliberately reject God’s plan is identical.
Are you ok with that?

That a man who has hit his wife deserves an eternity of torment? Are you serious? You can’t be.

Let me try yet another way…

God, in his infinite goodness will allow both men into heaven. But He determines that they both deserve punishment. You obviously have no say in that, so off to the basement with both of them. But He’s going to leave the punishment up to you.

According to you, they both deserve exactly the same punishment. So maybe you decide there’s no TV or access to mobile phones for a week (for raping and killing dozens of children?) or maybe you go with the rack, burning, flaying, breaking of bones etc etc for a few years (for slapping your wife?). Either way, they both get exactly the same.

That’s your argument.

 

[josh987654321]

That a man who has hit his wife deserves an eternity of torment? Are you serious? You can’t be.

I am, very serious. Unless the man repents of beating his wife, there is no possibility of change, nor a desire to change. One can’t enter heaven adamantly insisting on their right to sin and disobey God (in regards to when we die, this is done with full knowledge and without the temptations to sin in which we are prone to here on Earth). Hence why they cannot repent after it, because it’s done with full knowledge hence why they wont change their minds and repent while in hell either.

Let me try yet another way…

God, in his infinite goodness will allow both men into heaven.

I would recommend trying another analogy, as this is an impossibility as one can’t enter heaven without humility and repentance.

God, in His infinite goodness, will not allow a man into heaven who say’s “Yes, I beat my wife, I beat her before and will do it again, I’m adamant it was the right thing to do and I’m totally justified in doing it, so let me in God, but don’t expect me to think beating my wife is wrong, no, your wrong God.”

The reality will be Christ embracing his wife who he beat during his life here on Earth, and then that man will likely walk right on into hell with full knowledge and determination, because due to his pride, he will not be able to stand such a scenario taking place. He will likely retort *“If your going to embrace my wife like that, than stuff you, I’m outta here.” * and right into hell he will stride, along with all of the other damned souls.

Whereas the repentant man, will see his victims being crowned and embraced by God, and due to his repentance, will fall on his knees and plead for God’s forgiveness and the forgiveness of his victims. Such a man can be purified in purgatory if necessary and will enjoy paradise with the saints.

That’s my theory anyway.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Bradski]

God, in His infinite goodness, will not allow a man into heaven who say’s “Yes, I beat my wife, I beat her before and will do it again, I’m adamant it was the right thing to do and I’m totally justified in doing it, so let me in God, but don’t expect me to think beating my wife is wrong, no, your wrong God.”

I think that we can agree that keeping a slave was not considered immoral in biblical times. Yes, you can say that it was more like indentured service, but even that would be considered immoral today. Notwithstanding that scripture is more than willing for a man to beat his slave (but just not too much, or he’ll have to pay a penalty).

Let’s forget anything that you might be able to find in the catechism that would discount anyone being able to own a slave today. It must surely be agreed that in times past it was not considered immoral.

So now we have two scenarios whereby a man strikes his female slave a few hundred years before Jesus came on the scene and would not even consider repenting for that. But a man in the 21st century who keeps a slave wouldn’t even have to go so far as to beat her – he’s acting immorally in any case simply by having her as a slave.

Does the first man go to hell for something that isn’t considered immoral? He’s an honest man and stands up for himself and refuses to repent because he genuinely feels he has done nothing wrong. And you may even get his slaves agreeing to that.

Did the witch burners of Salem go to hell? Did anyone involved in the Inquisition? None of those men are going to repent before dying because they thought they were doing God’s work.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

God, in his infinite goodness will allow both men into heaven.

Only if they were both fully repentant and have paid for their errors.

That a man who has hit his wife deserves an eternity of torment? Are you serious? You can’t be…That’s your argument.

No that’s not my argument that’s your argument and I quote.

#126…Well, pardon me, but the point for me comes when the person, with full intent, commits the crime. Personally speaking, he is damned from that point. I say that it’s too late to avoid punishment once the crime has been committed.

Your argument seems, on one hand, to be saying that a man can hit a woman and expect no punishment.
Then on the other hand you state “when the person, with full intent,
commits the crime. he is damned from that point.”

That God’s judgment is unfair but yours is correct.
That’s your argument.
Are you serious?
You can’t be.

My point is that their eternal path is decided by their willingness
to reject evil in all its forms and to follow on the right path,
this can start early in their life (preferably) or can save them late in life,
but it must be their choice to reject the error of their ways.
seeking Gods forgiveness. *(Yes and that of their victims.) *

“when the person, with full intent,
commits the crime. he is damned from that point.”

We almost fully agree on this point except I believe that genuine repentance
opens the cell door and gives us a chance to redeem ourselves.
The bigger the sin was, the longer we suffer in Purgatory.

 

[Bradski]

That God’s judgment is unfair but yours is correct.
That’s your argument.
Are you serious?
You can’t be.

Yes, I am. Because my punishment is proportionate to the crime. The crime against humanity. Not the crime against God.

He says that an unrepentant wife slapper will be punished exactly the same as a multiple child rapist/murderer. And that both punishments will last for eternity with no hope of mercy.

If I said I was going to torment someone for 10 years continuously for his sins, you would say that nothing he could have done would justify it. That I was a sadist. You’d be right.

 

[littlestsouls2]

The Saints had a profound knowledge of God. By an ardent charity, they were united to God most intimately. Consequently, they were illuminated by infused knowledge. Such knowledge cannot be acquired through reasoning alone. It is for this reason, among others, that I trust St. Catherine of Genoa when she says this:

“When I beheld that vision in which I saw the magnitude of the stain of even one least sin against God, I know not why I did not die. I said: I no longer marvel that hell is so horrible, since it was made for sin; for even hell (as I have seen it) I do not believe to be really proportionate to the dreadfulness of sin; on the contrary, it seems to me that even in hell God is very merciful, since I have beheld the terrible stain caused by but one venial sin. And what, in comparison to that, would be a mortal sin? And then so many mortal sins? Surely, if any one could behold all this, even if he were immortal, anguish would once more make him mortal. Even that slight and solitary vision which I beheld, and which lasted but an instant, if it had continued but a little longer would have destroyed my body had it been made of adamant.”

I take offence to murder and rape, but I am only a finite, imperfect creature. I imagine that if I were ontologically greater I would be more offended.

The hatred that God bears towards sin is a testament to His infinite goodness. His hatred is proportionate to His goodness. How a good God could hate sin with anything less than an infinite hatred is beyond me. The series ‘Radio Replies’ answers many of these questions very concisely.