How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?

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Hell and all that nonsense - was designed to keep people in fear, and coming to church. The new Generation of Christians follow Christ out of love and whats inside… not cause were afraid of the boggy man…
You are correct that all people should be a Christian because of love, not because of fear.

However, you do know who spoke the most of hell in the Bible, right?

It wasn’t St. Paul. It wasn’t Moses. It wasn’t St. Peter…
 
Thanks to all for your replies. A few more thoughts:
1-I’ve seen some replies to the effect that the rules of the game are clear, and we have free will, so anyone in hell “chose” to go there. I think that’s overly simplistic. Yes, we have the Ten Commandments, but even religious scholars don’t all agree on the nature of sin, much less when one has crossed the line and when one has not. I think it’s a bit harsh to say that hell is easy to avoid by simply “following the rules,” especially given our broken nature and this very complex world in which we live.
Actually the rules are so simple. The 10 commandments are for those who wanted more guidance. If you love God and your neighbor, all the other commandments are moot. It boils down all to love. You will do all you can for the person you love and avoid all you can the things that made them unhappy.
2- I’ve also seen arguments that God is infinite, and therefore our sins are infinite, and therefore deserving of unbearable, eternal punishment. I think just the opposite. Any sin against the infinite is finite, and near zero. If you can imagine sinfulness of a trillion to the trillionth power, and divide it by infinity, you get zero, or maybe even negative (it gets a bit theoretical, I guess). It would seem that the worst sinner against God would be a like gnat flapping its wings from the other side of the universe, in terms of effect.
3- I’ve also seen arguments that hell is necessary for justice. Why? Why isn’t purgatory good enough? Let the worst do their time in purgatory, but let them eventually be cleansed.
I think you missed an important piece. It is the lack of repentance that get them to hell. They are not sorry for what they have done. Whether the punishment is harsh or not, is a separate matter. They do not seek forgiveness. They are adamant till the very end to do the things that God hates, to tell God, No. That is why they are in hell and not purgatory. People who have done evil but repents of what they have done at the very last moment, can still see paradise. You know I am talking about the Good Thief on the cross. And the bad Thief, he is going down there cursing all the way.
 
I hope none mind if I paraphrase a small piece out of Timothy Keller’s book ‘The Reason for God’ regarding ‘hell’ that I believe may help.

People seem to think that hell works a little bit like this -

God gives us time, but if we haven’t made the right choices by the end of our lives, he casts our souls into hell for all eternity. These souls in hell then cry out for mercy but God say’s “Too Late! You had your chance! Now you will suffer!”

However, this misunderstands the very nature of evil.

The biblical picture is that sin separates us from the presence of God, which is the source of all joy, love, wisdom or good things of any sort. Since we were originally created for God’s immediate presence, only before His face will we thrive, flourish and achieve our highest potential. If we were to lose His presence totally, that would be hell, the loss of our capability for giving or receiving love or joy.

A common view of hell is fire; fire disintegrates. Even in this life we can see the kind of soul disintegration that self-centeredness creates. We know how selfishness and self-absorption leads to piercing bitterness, nauseating envy, paralyzing anxiety, paranoid thoughts, and the mental denials and distortions that accompany them. Now ask the question: “What if when we die, we don’t end, but spiritually our life extends on into eternity?”

Hell then, is the trajectory of the soul, living a self-absorbed, self-centered life, going on and on forever.

Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16 supports this view of hell presented here, Lazarus is a poor man who begs at the gate of a cruel rich man. They both die and Lazarus goes to heaven while the Rich Man goes to hell. There he looks up and sees Lazarus in heaven.
The Gospel of Luke 16:19-31:
**The Rich Man and Lazarus **

19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”
What’s interesting is that though their statuses have now been reversed, the Rich Man seems to be blind as to what has happened. He still expects Lazarus to be his servant and treats him as his water boy. He doesn’t ask to get out of hell, but strongly implies that God never gave him and his family enough information about the afterlife.

Others have noted the amount of denial, blame-shifting, and spiritual blindness in this soul in hell. Others have also noted that the Rich Man, unlike Lazarus, is never given a personal name. He is only called a “Rich Man” strongly hinting that since he had built his identity on his wealth rather than on God, once he lost his wealth he lost any sense of a self.

In C.S. Lewis’ fantasy ‘The Great Divorce’ he describes a bus load of people from hell who come to the outskirts of heaven. There they are urged to leave behind the sins that have trapped them in hell, but they refuse. Lewis’ depiction of those are striking, because in them we recognize the self delusion and self absorption that are “On the small scale” in our own addictions.

Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others… but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God “sending us” to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE HELL unless it is nipped in the bud. - C.S. Lewis

The people in hell are miserable and C.S. Lewis helps show us why. We see raging like unchecked flames their pride, their paranoia, their self-pity, their certainty that everyone else is wrong, that everyone else is and idiot! All their humility is gone, and thus so is their sanity. They are locked in a prison of their own self centeredness, and their pride progressively expands into a bigger and bigger mushroom cloud. They continue to go to pieces forever, blaming everyone but themselves. Hell is that, on a large scale.

This is why it’s a travesty to picture God throwing people into hell crying "I’m sorry! Let me out!" The people on the bus from hell would rather have their “freedom,” as they define it, instead of salvation. Ironically they fail to see their sins for what they are.

Please continue to next post -
 
In short, hell is simply one’s freely chosen identity apart from God on a trajectory into infinity. We see this process* “On the small scale”* in addictions to drugs, alcohol, gambling, and pornography. First, there is disintegration, because as time goes on you need more and more of the addictive substance to get a kick, which leads to less and less satisfaction.

Second, there is the isolation, as increasingly they blame others and circumstances in order to justify their behavior. “No one understands, Everyone is against me!” is muttered in greater and greater self-pity and self-absorption. When we build our lives on anything but God, that thing, though a good, thing becomes an enslaving addiction, something we have to have to be happy.

Personal disintegration happens on a broader scale, in eternity, this disintegration goes on forever. There is increasing isolation, denial, delusion, and self-absorption. When we lose all humility we are out of touch with reality. No one ever asks to leave hell. The very idea of Heaven seems to them a sham.
The Gospel of John 8:31-34:
**The Truth Will Set You Free **

31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin.
Their delusion is that if they glorified God, they would somehow lose power and freedom, but in a supreme and tragic irony, their choice has ruined their own potential for greatness. Hell is, as Lewis say’s* “The greatest monument to human freedom.”* As Romans 1:24 basically says *“God gave them up to their own desires.” *All God does in the end is give them what they most want, including freedom from himself. What could be more fair than that? Lewis writes -

*There are only two kinds of people, those who say “Thy will be done” to God or those to whom God says in the end “Alright, Thy will be done.” All that are in hell choose it. Without that self choice it wouldn’t be hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. *
St Faustina's Diary 1452:
liturgicalyear.files.wordpre…in-my-soul.pdf

When the clock struck twelve, my soul immersed itself more deeply in recollection, and I heard a voice in my soul: (63) Do not fear, My little child, you are not alone. Fight bravely, because My arm is supporting you; fight for the salvation of souls, exhorting them to trust in My mercy, as that is your task in this life and in the life to come. After these words, I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy. Only that soul who wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one.
I hope the following has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I don’t disagree. I’m saying that (other than satanists) people IMV don’t say to themselves who are about to commit mortal sin, that they choose to go to hell even though that’s the effect if they die in that sin.
That’s the point…God isn’t sending them, they are freely choosing a behavior that will send them there.
 
Hans Urs von Balthasar (who was elected Cardinal but died before being created), wrote a book on the subject: Dare We* Hope* that All Men Be Saved? A Short Discourse on Hell. Here it is at Amazon.
Wikipedia’s article, The Problem of Hell, mentions him and other Catholic theologians who have thus speculated:
The Pope’s personal preacher taught this:
I kinda thought you got it from von Balthasar.

He was criticized for his position by significant people. Why? Because universalism is a heresy


  1. *]Balthasar, Universal Salvation, and Ralph Martin’s “Will … good internal links
    *]Then there is Library : The Inflated Reputation of Hans Urs von Balthasar …
    D:
    But the Church does not teach that hell could not possibly be empty. Therefore, any Catholic is free to hope that hell is empty.
    :confused:

    universalism is heresy. The Church can’t teach heresy on faith or morals.
 
We view this from the perspective of our existence here on earth and the way we experience time. Will we experience time after we die or will we be existing in – I don’t know what to call it – an eternal now? Something outside of time as we experience it today? Does that change the calculus at all? If we exist in a state outside of time–isn’t that a different type of eternity than we envision we think in terms of a linear progression.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Maybe 20 minutes. In the case of hell: a fraction of a second.

But we need to understand what “being sorry” means. Telling your sister “sorry” after you punched her in the face in order to get into Disney World isn’t contrition. It’s intelligence. Contrition isn’t something that can be produced by a few manipulations, or even all the manipulation in the world. It is an interior disposition. As adults we can use our power and authority to make children say “sorry” - which is all well and good - but what we are doing is making them satisfy the external condition in the hopes that they’ll also make the internal action, but that internal action isn’t something we have any power over, and neither does God himself.
Yeah. Ok that’s a good point I guess.
I keep reading this again and again in the hell threads: that people in hell must surely be sorry once they get there. No, they’re not sorry. They are sorry that they are in hell. Hell is not a place where contrite sinners, stirred by love of God and neighbor, go to suffer forever in some unspeakably twisted reality. Hell is a place where the reprobate go. And if you look around in the world, there are some clearer examples of people that are evil. People that steal from impoverished families for their own superabundant comfort. People that sell women’s bodies and let them get raped and abused like toys, and laugh about it. People that take sadistic pleasure in discriminating against an entire group of people. People that haughtily look down upon everybody that they encounter, and hunger for power. And what’s more, these things aren’t reserved to an obscure minority of sociopaths. If you provide the right conditions, you can actually get a substantial chunk of the population of a nation on board with some of the most heinous things.

We are all sinners in need of God’s mercy, but some choose to have nothing to do with that mercy.

We need to have more faith in God and less faith in ourselves. God isn’t going to permit somebody an eternity apart from Him unless that person really belongs there. He knows what he is doing.
Ok man. I’ll think about that from that side too. I mean you’ve got some points there. There are really some guys I’d not be too impressed with seeing in heaven it’s true. But then I guess if they’d converted. In a real way somehow. Well then maybe I’d be over the moon to see them make it. I don’t know. It’s hard to let go of hate that strong. It’s hard to ease back on the trigger finger when you’ve got dirt like that in your sights.

But I’ve got to be really careful in that. Because I’m no angel. And I’ve caused my own share of misery. So I’m not really ever going to be in the clear if I can’t also try to at least imagine letting some of the worst people I know a chance to get clear too. I don’t know.

Peace TK421. And I mean you should really check back in on your kingdom once in a while. It’s sort of fallen apart without you.

-Trident
 
Maybe 20 minutes. In the case of hell: a fraction of a second.

But we need to understand what “being sorry” means. Telling your sister “sorry” after you punched her in the face in order to get into Disney World isn’t contrition. It’s intelligence. Contrition isn’t something that can be produced by a few manipulations, or even all the manipulation in the world. It is an interior disposition. As adults we can use our power and authority to make children say “sorry” - which is all well and good - but what we are doing is making them satisfy the external condition in the hopes that they’ll also make the internal action, but that internal action isn’t something we have any power over, and neither does God himself.

I keep reading this again and again in the hell threads: that people in hell must surely be sorry once they get there. No, they’re not sorry. They are sorry that they are in hell. Hell is not a place where contrite sinners, stirred by love of God and neighbor, go to suffer forever in some unspeakably twisted reality. Hell is a place where the reprobate go. And if you look around in the world, there are some clearer examples of people that are evil. People that steal from impoverished families for their own superabundant comfort. People that sell women’s bodies and let them get raped and abused like toys, and laugh about it. People that take sadistic pleasure in discriminating against an entire group of people. People that haughtily look down upon everybody that they encounter, and hunger for power. And what’s more, these things aren’t reserved to an obscure minority of sociopaths. If you provide the right conditions, you can actually get a substantial chunk of the population of a nation on board with some of the most heinous things.

We are all sinners in need of God’s mercy, but some choose to have nothing to do with that mercy.

We need to have more faith in God and less faith in ourselves. God isn’t going to permit somebody an eternity apart from Him unless that person really belongs there. He knows what he is doing.
👍
I don’t know. It’s hard to let go of hate that strong. It’s hard to ease back on the trigger finger when you’ve got dirt like that in your sights.
:sad_yes: I hope you don’t mind If I share some previous posts in regards to forgiveness that I believe will really help here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016008&postcount=6
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016010&postcount=7
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016011&postcount=8
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016012&postcount=9
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016013&postcount=10
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016014&postcount=11

I hope this has helped

God Bless You Trident

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
That fire’s lit. And some of us are going to go there. Even maybe with a look of surprise.
But you don’t believe that there’s any chance of you going there. You simply wouldn’t be able to function normally if you thought there may be a chance you were going to be tormented for eternity. In fact, you wouldn’t be able to function if you thought it was going to be for a week.

There’s a guy who’s been wandering the country for the last few years. Every week or so he kidnaps a child, tortures them for days on end and then rapes and kills them. Then one day he’s walking past a church and something draws him in. He asks the priest if he could confess some sins. And he tells the priest everything. It’s like waking from a bad dream. He repents, walks outside and finds himself confronted by the father of one of the children. ‘See you in hell!’ the father screams as he shoots the man dead.

There’s another guy sitting at home, drinking. He’s got a problem. His father was a violent man and so was his father before him. Something in the genes perhaps. Or maybe violence begets violence. Things he saw, and did, in the Gulf war didn’t help.

He’s struck his wife before. Some argument which got out of hand. And there’s tension in the house tonight. An argument over money. He’s been out of work for so long. She goes to make some toast and burns it. He snaps. There’s a lot of shouting and pushing and he hits her. Drags her around and punches her. He’s beside himself. Raging. Blood pressure through the roof. And…gets hit with a heart attack. Drops dead on the kitchen floor.

According to what I’ve been reading, one of these guys is going to heaven. And one of them to hell

Is this the way it works?
 
Extract from the book 'The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ' by Anne Catherine Emmerich:
The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ - jesus-passion.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm
(Roman Catholic Imprimatur & Nihil Obstat)

**CHAPTER XIV

The Despair of Judas**

Whilst the Jews were conducting Jesus to Pilate, the traitor Judas walked about listening to the conversation of the crowd who followed, and his ears were struck by words such as these: ‘They are taking him before Pilate; the High Priests have condemned the Galilean to death; he will be crucified; they will accomplish his death; he has been already dreadfully ill-treated; his patience is wonderful; he answers not; his only words are that he is the Messiah, and that he will be seated at the right hand of God; they will crucify him on account of those words; had he not said them they could not have condemned him to death. The miscreant who sold him was one of his disciples, and had a short time before eaten the Paschal lamb with him; not for worlds would I have had to do with such an act; however guilty the Galilean may be, he has not at all events sold his friend for money; such an infamous character as this disciple is infinitely more deserving of death.’ Then, but too late, anguish, despair, and remorse took possession of the mind of Judas. Satan instantly prompted him to fly. He fled as if a thousand furies were at his heel, and the bag which was hanging at his side struck him as he ran, and propelled him as a spur from hell; but he took it into his hand to prevent its blows. He fled as fast as possible, but where did he fly? Not towards the crowd, that he might cast himself at the feet of Jesus, his merciful Saviour, implore his pardon, and beg to die with him,— not to confess his fault with true repentance before God, but to endeavour to unburden himself before the world of his crime, and of the price of his treachery. He ran like one beside himself into the Temple, where several members of the Council had gathered together after the judgment of Jesus. They looked at one another with astonishment; and then turned their haughty countenances, on which a smile of irony was visible, upon Judas. He with a frantic gesture tore the thirty pieces of silver from his side, and holding them forth with his right hand, exclaimed in accents of the most deep despair, ‘ Take back your silver—that silver with which you bribed me to betray this just man; take back your silver; release Jesus; our compact is at an end; I have sinned grievously, for I have betrayed innocent blood.’ The priests answered him in the most contemptuous manner, and, as if fearful of contaminating themselves by the contact of the reward of the traitor, would not touch the silver he tended, but replied, ‘What have we to do with thy sin? If thou thinkest to have sold innocent blood, it is thine own affair; we know what we have paid for, and we have judged him worthy of death. Thou hast thy money, say no more.’ They addressed these words to him in the abrupt tone in which men usually speak when anxious to get rid of a troublesome person, and instantly arose and walked away. These words filled Judas with such rage and despair that he became almost frantic: his hair stood on end on his head; he rent in two the bag which contained the thirty pieces of silver, cast them down in the Temple, and fled to the outskirts of the town.

175

I again beheld him rushing to and fro like a madman in the valley of Hinnom: Satan was by his side in a hideous form, whispering in his ear, to endeavour to drive him to despair, all the curses which the prophets had hurled upon this valley, where the Jews formerly sacrificed their children to idols.

It appeared as if all these maledictions were directed against him, as in these words, for instance: ‘ They shall go forth, and behold the carcases of those who have sinned against me, whose worm dieth not, and whose fire shall never be extinguished.’ Then the devil murmured in his ears, ‘Cain, where is thy brother Abel? What hast thou done?—his blood cries to me for vengeance: thou art cursed upon earth, a wanderer for ever.’ When he reached the torrent of Cedron, and saw Mount Olivet, he shuddered, turned away, and again the words vibrated in his ear, ‘Friend, whereto art thou come? Judas, dost thou betray the Son of Man with a kiss?’ Horror filled his soul, his head began to wander, and the arch fiend again whispered, ‘It was here that David crossed the Cedron when he fled from Absalom. Absalom put an end to his life by hanging himself. It was of thee that David spoke when he said: “And they repaid me evil for good; hatred for my love. May the devil stand at his right hand; when he is judged, may he go out condemned. May his days be few, and his bishopric let another take. May the iniquity of his father be remembered in the sight of the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out, because he remembered not to show mercy, but persecuted the poor man and the beggar and the broken in heart, to put him to death. And he loved cursing, and it shall come unto him. And he put on cursing like a garment, and it went in like water into his entrails, and like oil into his bones. May it be unto him like a garment which covereth him and like a girdle, with which he is girded continually.”’
Please continue to next post -
 
Continued:
Overcome by these terrible thoughts Judas rushed on, and reached the foot of the mountain. It was a dreary, desolate spot filled with rubbish and putrid remains; discordant sounds from the city reverberated in his ears, and Satan continually repeated, ‘They are now about to put him to death; thou hast sold him. Knowest thou not the words of the law, “He who sells a soul among his brethren, and receives the price of it, let him die the death”? Put an end to thy misery, wretched one; put an end to thy misery.’ Overcome by despair Judas tore off his girdle, and hung himself on a tree which grew in a crevice of the rock, and after death his body burst asunder, and his bowels were scattered around.
Jesus to Catalina:
(Roman Catholic Imprimatur)

**2) After Judas handed Me over in the Garden of Olives, he wandered off and took flight, unable to stifle the cries of his conscience, which accused him of the most horrible sacrilege. When the news of My death sentence reached his ears, he gave in to the most terrible despair and hanged himself.
  1. Who can possibly understand the intense pain in My Heart when I saw that soul cast himself into eternal damnation? He who had spent three years in the school of My Love learning My doctrine, receiving My teaching, and many times hearing My lips forgive the greatest sinners.
  2. Judas! Why do you not come and throw yourself at My feet so that I may forgive you? If you do not dare to come near Me for fear of those who surround Me and so ardently abuse Me, at least look at Me and you will see how soon My eyes will fix on you.
  3. Souls, who are entangled in the greatest sins… If at times you have lived wandering as fugitives because of your crimes, if the sins of which you are guilty have blinded you and hardened your hearts, if in the pursuit of some passion you have fallen into greater disorder, do not allow desperation to take possession of you when the accomplices to your sin abandon you and your soul realizes its guilt. As long as man has an instant of life, he still has time to appeal to My Mercy and implore forgiveness.
  4. If you are young and the scandals of your past life have left you in a state of degradation before men, do not be afraid! Even though the world may despise you, treat you as wicked, insult and abandon you, be certain that your God does not want your soul to be fodder for the flames of hell. He wants you to dare to speak to Him, to direct your gaze and the sighs of your heart at Him, and you will soon see that His kind and paternal hand will lead you to the source of forgiveness and of life.
  5. If out of malice you have perhaps spent a large part of your life in disorder and indifference, and now near eternity, desperation wants to blindfold your eyes, do not allow yourself to be deceived. There is still time for forgiveness. Listen carefully: if you have left but a second of life, take advantage of it because you could gain eternal life during that second.
  6. If your existence has passed in ignorance and in error, if you have been the cause of great harm to people, to society, and even to religion, and for any reason you recognize your mistake, do not allow yourself to be pulled down by the burden of your sins or by the harm for which you have been instrumental. But instead, allow your soul to be penetrated with the deepest sorrow, absorb yourself in trust and turn to the One who is always waiting to forgive you.
  7. The same happens for a soul who has spent the first years of its life in faithful observance of My Commandments, but has little by little fallen away from fervor into a lukewarm and comfortable life …
  8. Do not hide anything that I tell you, for it is all for the benefit of the whole of humanity. Repeat it in broad daylight; preach it to those who truly want to hear it.
  9. The soul who one day receives a strong jolt that awaken her, all of a sudden sees her life fruitless, empty and undeserving of eternity. The Evil One, with infernal jealousy, attacks her in a thousand ways, exaggerating her faults. He inspires in her sadness and discouragement, leading in the end to fear and desperation.
  10. Soul that belongs to Me, do not pay attention to that cruel enemy. As soon as you feel the movement of grace at the beginning of your struggle, come to My Heart. Feel and watch how it pours a drop of its Blood upon your soul, and come to Me. You know where I am, under the veil of faith… Lift it and, with complete trust, tell Me all your sorrows, your miseries, your falls… Listen to My words with respect and do not fear for the past. My Heart has submerged it in the endless depths of My Mercy and My Love.
  11. Your past life will give you the humility that will fill you. And if you want to give Me the best proof of love, trust Me and count on My forgiveness. Believe that your sins will never be greater than My infinite Mercy.**
 
But you don’t believe that there’s any chance of you going there. You simply wouldn’t be able to function normally if you thought there may be a chance you were going to be tormented for eternity. In fact, you wouldn’t be able to function if you thought it was going to be for a week.

There’s a guy who’s been wandering the country for the last few years. Every week or so he kidnaps a child, tortures them for days on end and then rapes and kills them. Then one day he’s walking past a church and something draws him in. He asks the priest if he could confess some sins. And he tells the priest everything. It’s like waking from a bad dream. He repents, walks outside and finds himself confronted by the father of one of the children. ‘See you in hell!’ the father screams as he shoots the man dead.

There’s another guy sitting at home, drinking. He’s got a problem. His father was a violent man and so was his father before him. Something in the genes perhaps. Or maybe violence begets violence. Things he saw, and did, in the Gulf war didn’t help.

He’s struck his wife before. Some argument which got out of hand. And there’s tension in the house tonight. An argument over money. He’s been out of work for so long. She goes to make some toast and burns it. He snaps. There’s a lot of shouting and pushing and he hits her. Drags her around and punches her. He’s beside himself. Raging. Blood pressure through the roof. And…gets hit with a heart attack. Drops dead on the kitchen floor.

According to what I’ve been reading, one of these guys is going to heaven. And one of them to hell

Is this the way it works?
I’m lucky I am not the person to sort this out. The Divine Judge knowing ALL your thoughts/mind and heart, will give the fairest and most just verdict and punishment that commensurate with the gravity of the sin and tempering it with a dose of Divine Mercy.

Mortal sin definition doesn’t fit the scenario that you are painting. It requires full knowledge of the gravity of the sin. And only God knows that you know or not. Stress, mental or otherwise, duress, under the influence, brainwashing and other limiting factors may affect the level of culpability of the sin. But I doubt one can get scot free entirely. There is a continuum of culpability levels and God made it clear the punishment will be fitting.
 
Stress, mental or otherwise, duress, under the influence, brainwashing and other limiting factors may affect the level of culpability of the sin. But I doubt one can get scot free entirely.There is a continuum of culpability levels and God made it clear the punishment will be fitting.
I agree completely with the comment re stress, duress etc. And I agree with the ‘degree of culpability’ as well. Most certainly.

But Inhaven’t seen any scenario offered other than:

a) You go to hell. Punishment is eternal and everlasting.
b) You go to heaven. The rewards are eternal and everlasting.

I can see a continuum of culpability (there are mitigating factors to literally everything), but I see no continuum of punishment.

It’s quite common for criminals to repent for their crimes whilst serving their sentences. We give them due consideration for that. Maybe parole. I see no parole from hell.

But then, God would know if you genuinely repented for your evil ways whilst you were in hell. But it seems genuine repentance would be ignored. Unles…

…God knew that you’d genuinely repent in hell after being sent there, so He doesn’t send you there. In which case, all this gumph about having to repent before you die is nonsense.

Maybe hell is only populated by people who have refused to repent. And that would be irrespective of the evil done. So we have the guy who hit is wife in eternal torment while child rapist, who DID repent, has eternal bliss.

Either way, this doesn’t seem to work very well. So who is going to be the first to claim that, well, we cannot know the mind of God in any case?
 
But I haven’t seen any scenario offered other than:

a) You go to hell. Punishment is eternal and everlasting.
b) You go to heaven. The rewards are eternal and everlasting.
I believe there should also be one in-between a) and b) which would be Purgatory.
It’s quite common for criminals to repent for their crimes whilst serving their sentences. We give them due consideration for that. Maybe parole. I see no parole from hell.
It’s my understanding that those in hell can never repent of their crimes. Something about their choice being final and eternal.
But then, God would know if you genuinely repented for your evil ways whilst you were in hell. But it seems genuine repentance would be ignored. Unles…
It’s my understanding that repentance is never ignored, it’s the fact that those who are in Hell are not capable of repenting.
…God knew that you’d genuinely repent in hell after being sent there, so He doesn’t send you there.
It’s my understanding that it’s not possible for one to ‘repent’ in hell as it’s entered into with full knowledge.
In which case, all this gumph about having to repent before you die is nonsense.
If one could repent in hell, than I too would agree, but from what I have read, it’s not possible as it’s entered into with full knowledge.
Maybe hell is only populated by people who have refused to repent. And that would be irrespective of the evil done. So we have the guy who hit is wife in eternal torment while child rapist, who DID repent, has eternal bliss.
I also believe purgatory plays a bit of a role here, but I don’t know enough about it to say how much or where.
Either way, this doesn’t seem to work very well. So who is going to be the first to claim that, well, we cannot know the mind of God in any case?
We don’t know who is in Hell (other than the Devil and his allies/accomplices), but we are warned about it and that it is populated (no idea how much though).

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Whatever thread one reads in; there are more or less long or short answers as personal opinions.
But how much valid can a personal opinion be, if noch obviously backed by Jesus’ Doctrine?! No answer can possibly be right, if it doesn’t found and result on Jesus Christ’s clear word.
What are opinions worth, if they can not be well-documented by God’s covenant, which is not at all a thing tied to the period and perceptions of the time when it was put down, but pervades our very life of today all the same, as it will in another 2000 years. The Bible - Jesus Christ, provided unambiguous answers for all our questions, careless if the subject hadn’t even existed 2000 years ago.

Now the question "How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?“ is very similar to the often read peculiar statement; „God can’t else but love“. In both we even dare to determine God. Determine our creator, as to what God inevitably does, thinks, is, feels etc. All of which is an incredible misjudgement and imposition!
If we take the time to study our very own statements, ideas and thoughts, we always MUST match them with biblical statements and divine truths. It’s only then that we might be secure of own misleadings and wrong convictions which inevitably lead us astray.

But back to the questions; „what was hell made for, and how can a loving God condemn to hell?“

The Bible tells us that hell was not made for us, but originally for those Angels around Lucifer, who denied God’s singularity (Jude 1,6). That humans who went Satan’s way in denying God will go same way Satan did, Jesus said in very many sentences. Let’s mention just two out of the numerous; Mt 25,46 - whilst in Mt 25,41 Jesus makes two things clear: 1. Hell was made by God for Saten and his Angels, and 2. He who does deny God will join Satan in hell, which has been prepared for the devil and his angels and all who follow them - doing alike they did - doubt and challenge God!

How then dare we ever to say: „God can not…“ or "How can our all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?“
He who rebukes God’s love, is no longer loved by God. One out of the many verses stating this very obvious truth, is Paul’s word in 2Thes 2,9: The arrival of the lawless one will be by Satan’s working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders, and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing, because they they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

It’s clear that there is even a majority who is not saved! Among many others see Mark 16,16 or Luke 13,24 So both mentioned questions such as „God can’t…:“ or „How can God…“ are impossible to be put.

We can always say "God can“ as to God nothing is impossible, but to question if God can - we really can not even dare to!

Yours
Bruno
 
I agree completely with the comment re stress, duress etc. And I agree with the ‘degree of culpability’ as well. Most certainly.

But Inhaven’t seen any scenario offered other than:

a) You go to hell. Punishment is eternal and everlasting.
b) You go to heaven. The rewards are eternal and everlasting.

I can see a continuum of culpability (there are mitigating factors to literally everything), but I see no continuum of punishment.
There is no other scenario because we have 1 lifetime, not multiples. The opportunity for repentance ends upon death. And since there is no time in eternity, there is no time to repent in hell either. It is NOW. Regardless of the continuum, eventually, which side did you choose? It is yes or no, there is no halfway house. The continuum determines the severity of the payback, good or bad. It is almost like saying to the girl, yes, I like you a lot, but I am marrying Y. Tell God, I really really like your side but I am going over to the other side. Do you think God would fall for that continuum story?
It’s quite common for criminals to repent for their crimes whilst serving their sentences. We give them due consideration for that. Maybe parole. I see no parole from hell.
There is this thing about changing your mind while other torment. Has never been convincing. But again we don’t need to worry about these things because those who ended there are not surprised at being there. They know what they have done. Hell is a state of existence minus God’s presence. There is no time there. You won’t find clocks there. What for? There is nothing to look “forward” to. Just the companionship of satan and his gang and like-minded fellows. By definition, you can’t find any good there as in heaven any evil. So repentance is out of question.
But then, God would know if you genuinely repented for your evil ways whilst you were in hell. But it seems genuine repentance would be ignored. Unles…
…God knew that you’d genuinely repent in hell after being sent there, so He doesn’t send you there. In which case, all this gumph about having to repent before you die is nonsense.
Don’t waste time on speculation. Just try not to end up there. That is not a good bet finding loopholes out of hell.
Maybe hell is only populated by people who have refused to repent. And that would be irrespective of the evil done. So we have the guy who hit is wife in eternal torment while child rapist, who DID repent, has eternal bliss.
And yes it is true, those who genuinely repents, whether Stalin, Hitler and those sort, are all eligible, even at the last minute. But no one knows when the gate is going to shut on them though.They still need to go through purification because nothing unclean can enter heaven. I presume the dirtier one is the longer/intense the purification. Yes, till the last minute, you can still change side, satan to God and vice versa. The good person all his life may choose to switch side at the very end indeed. There is no “accidental” side switching. Definition of mortal sin is very clear. That’s why Catholics don’t presume they are saved till the very end because everyone can fall into temptation.
Either way, this doesn’t seem to work very well. So who is going to be the first to claim that, well, we cannot know the mind of God in any case?
We don’t need to know the mind of God very well, just enough to know that he means what he say and say what he means. The rules for salvation has been laid out, 1 lifetime to commit to God or not. Choose a side. If one wants to play lottery, the freewill has been given. Pascal Wager always come to mind. The payoff is definitely on God’s end. Satan has nothing to offer except temporary exuberant indulgence for say 70 years max? Work out the maths.
 
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