How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sanchoquijote
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m not denying that because of free will we’re accountable for our sins. My question was why would a just, loving God punish us for those finite sins with something so infinite (and therefore, disproportionate) as hell.
Do you question the existence of physics as easily? If I walk on the edge of a canyon and decide to move my foot a few inches into the abyss, is not my finite movement the cause of my infinite consequence of death?
 
You send yourself to hell. You made the choice that it is what you wanted. That being a “separation from God”. Do not feel bad for these people or be angry at God. They had a choice, and choose to be away from him and his law. Only once one fully dies will the experiance the full force of what that means. I’m willing to argue that it’s horrid and probably worse than any physical pain imaginable…especially knowing that you did it to yourself
 
Why don’t you understand…by saying people choose to go to hell…what is meant is that by choosing to disobey God’s Law, the person is choosing their destination…hell!
It’s deeper and more trippy. They didn’t choose hell because they choose to sin. They literally CHOOSE hell and REJECTED God’s offer. There is an enormous difference. See the connection to a Mortal Sin vs a lesser?
 
People who doubt and neglect God, say: I ain’t done anything wrong! So what’s up; if there really is a God, then I’m ok - so why bother and all this talk about heaven or hell? And in any case, the whole Bible is nothing but a terrible thread. You better don’t read that stuff!

Now, that’s same as if a craftsman says: All this bookkeeping is rubbish. I don’t, saves me a lot of bother.
The end of this will inevitably will be bankruptcy! No way to avoid this normal run of things!
How much more so, with eternal, and even divine things. Everything on earth is transitory and worthless (exceptgood deeds and the believe in God). The world is ephemeral; God, and we too ourselves are eternal. This does NOT make us „in some sense gods and goddesses“ as someone writes on page 1 of this thread. Satan’s life is everlasting too, and he by no means is a god either. Neither are the Angels in heaven any gods.

Now, the frequently heard word "IF THERE IS A GOD“ is such a terribly dismissive attitude towards God and His love in which He even gave His only begotten Son to save us in spite of our sins, that we might well call it a mortal sin to react uninterested in God.

Which father would not be deadly insulted and mortally offended if his children would disregard completely his love, his efforts about his offsprings and even his very existence. Disregarding, ignoring and neglecting a person by not even caring if this close relative is actually alive or not, is the peak of lovelessness and indeed condemnable. How much more so with God Himself.
What would we do, if we did the outmost we could to save someone, and this person then would doubt we ever did and even deny our existence… Such behavior is challenging God to prove anew to this individual that God even exists. I in fact heard the blasphemy; „Oh. God didn’t introduce Himself to me“.
God will in return disregard and deny the existence of this person - and there will be a weeping and gnashing with teeth and self-condemnation of one’s life on earth and now for all eternity, for this human scorned God’s deed of love, and made life to pious people who where loved by God, unworthy to live.
Since God is the absolute justness, God will never award those who rebuffed His love same way as God will raise those who loved Him, for they already are condemned in their lifetime - are condemned by all circumstances they planted themselves. How by all means could ever he, who took up his cross and followed Jesus, receive same eternal life in God’s Kingdom as he, who threw this cross away and lived a life without God and even to the disadvantage of those loved by God?!
John 3,17: For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned. The one who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
This is NOT and by no means a thread, but a ever so natural succession of things we ourselves arranged that way, through either joyful and grateful acknowledgment and acceptance of God’s tremendous deeds of love for our salvation - or refusing and rebuffing God and His deeds for us. God provided a just place for both and all knew this all the time when they where on earth. But some laughed and scorned about it. They are the ones among us, who scorned, hurt, flagellated and crucified Jesus Christ.
Yes, the original ones who did, Jesus asked not to be judged, for they didn’t know hat they where doing. We all of today though, do know!

Neither is this a thread of God in the Old Covenant, as repeated numerous times by Jesus Christ in the New Covenant that he who condemns Christ, is condemned already.

Yours
Bruno 🙂
ps:
I invite anyone to write to me in private mail to the address:
Holzschnitzereien at Krippenfiguren.com
 
Why don’t you understand…by saying people choose to go to hell…what is meant is that by choosing to disobey God’s Law, the person is choosing their destination…hell!
I don’t disagree. I’m saying that (other than satanists) people IMV don’t say to themselves who are about to commit mortal sin, that they choose to go to hell even though that’s the effect if they die in that sin.
 
Actually he is right. Anyone is free to speculate, whatever the contents of hell are. Just that it may not be right.
That’s why I asked for references where the Church says one is free to speculate on that. #35
e:
But there are some things that would be correct because Christ said so. It will be unpleasant and it wouldn’t be empty. It won’t be empty because the Chief Host Satan is there and his subordinates welcoming all those coming on board.
Bingo!

therefore, it’s not appropriate, as in it’s irresponsibile to speculate hell is empty.
 
I’m a Christian, but there is no chance I will ever believe in hell. If this place was real (which its not) - do you not think Jesus would have spoken about it a bit more than he did? How much did he talk about hell? hmmm, nothing.

Here is a question - Jesus actually told us where Heaven is… anyone on here remember?

“man will search high and low for the kingdom of God but will never find it - for what he does not know is that - the kingdom is inside him”. We are already in Heaven guys… we are spirits already - Perhaps hell is something we can visit now - if we are not careful with our life chooses…

live in love/follow the teachings of Christ - you are already there… no fear of the boogie man. The hell story is just first testament nonsense. How many people read that one… we don’t belive people lived to be 900 anymore, we don’t believe in a lot of the text from the first commandment… yet some people belive in hell…

Read the second testament… you’ll find the answers there… He gave them to us a long time ago.
I know this is a common question, but I continue to struggle with this.

Hell is unbearable. God is all-loving, and therefore cannot want this for anyone.

Our life is ephemeral, yet hell is eternal. God is just, and therefore no one could commit sufficient evil in this world to deserve eternal punishment in the next.

Could a just God allow anyone to be born into this world with a chance that they will commit acts that will condemn them to hell? Moreover, Jesus indicates in the Bible that condemnation to hell is actually pretty common, which is that much harder to reconcile with the image of a just, loving God. Would it be just or loving for God to expose any of us to this risk?

Thanks for your consideration.

Mike
 
I’m a Christian, but there is no chance I will ever believe in hell. If this place was real (which its not) - do you not think Jesus would have spoken about it a bit more than he did? How much did he talk about hell? hmmm, nothing.

Here is a question - Jesus actually told us where Heaven is… anyone on here remember?

“man will search high and low for the kingdom of God but will never find it - for what he does not know is that - the kingdom is inside him”. We are already in Heaven guys… we are spirits already - Perhaps hell is something we can visit now - if we are not careful with our life chooses…

live in love/follow the teachings of Christ - you are already there… no fear of the boogie man. The hell story is just first testament nonsense. How many people read that one… we don’t belive people lived to be 900 anymore, we don’t believe in a lot of the text from the first commandment… yet some people belive in hell…

Read the second testament… you’ll find the answers there… He gave them to us a long time ago.
I am assuming that when you say “First Testament” you mean the Old Testament and “Second Testament” you mean the New Testament.

First of all, I’m a little confused. Are you suggesting that Christians do not follow the Ten Commandments?

Second of all, what are your opinions on Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:41? Does “eternal fire” and “Gehenna” not sound like a fiery place where the condemned are sent (i.e hell)? Or is this “second testament nonsense”? Does it sound like everyone is already in heaven when not everyone will make it? All of these verses were spoken by Jesus, so I’m not sure where you got your opinion from.
 
Also, another point to consider. If Heaven is already within us all, then that would suggest that there is no distance from us and God; we are in and living in and abiding in heaven. If that was the case, and there was no chance of us being further distanced from God, then what was the point of Christ’a sacrifice for our sins? If there’s no Hell to worry about since we can do no wrong (otherwise why would we be in Heaven), Jesus’ sacrifice not only seems unnecessary, but invalid. I would appreciate it if you explained this.
 
There is no distance form us an God for sure… Even Jesus said - we can all do what he has done - and greater things…

Also - do you need hell in your life to do wrong or right? I don’t belive in it - but still strive to follow Christ - and do not need someone to scare me into it… Im doing it because I feel it is my purpose.
Also, another point to consider. If Heaven is already within us all, then that would suggest that there is no distance from us and God; we are in and living in and abiding in heaven. If that was the case, and there was no chance of us being further distanced from God, then what was the point of Christ’a sacrifice for our sins? If there’s no Hell to worry about since we can do no wrong (otherwise why would we be in Heaven), Jesus’ sacrifice not only seems unnecessary, but invalid. I would appreciate it if you explained this.
 
Give the quote from a reputable source, properly referenced that the Church speculates hell is empty or that Catholics are free to speculate hell is empty
Hans Urs von Balthasar (who was elected Cardinal but died before being created), wrote a book on the subject: Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved? A Short Discourse on Hell. Here it is at Amazon.

Wikipedia’s article, The Problem of Hell, mentions him and other Catholic theologians who have thus speculated:
Some Catholic theologians such as Karl Rahner, Gisbert Greshake, and Hans Urs von Balthasar have at length discussed the possibility that any man may be led by a final grace to freely willed repentance if necessary at least at some point in the process of dying.
The Pope’s personal preacher taught this:
The Church assures us that a man or a woman who is proclaimed a saint is experiencing eternal blessedness, but she does not herself know for certain that any particular person is in hell. [Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa, preacher of the Pontifical Household, in a http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/father-cantalamessa-s-good-friday-homily--7”]Good Friday homily
at St. Peter’s Basilica, April 18, 2004]
Jesus doesn’t say hell is empty
Neither does the Church, and neither do I. But the Church does not teach that hell could not possibly be empty. Therefore, any Catholic is free to hope that hell is empty.
 
There is no distance form us an God for sure… Even Jesus said - we can all do what he has done - and greater things…

Also - do you need hell in your life to do wrong or right? I don’t belive in it - but still strive to follow Christ - and do not need someone to scare me into it… Im doing it because I feel it is my purpose.
Can you please tell me where in the Bible you are referencing this from?

Hell will exist regardless of anything I do, good or bad. And it exists regardless of your belief, or anyone else’s for that matter.

Could you please also explain why you still don’t seem believe in the existence of Hell after I cited multiple instances of Scripture to you of Jesus speaking of a fiery place where the condemned go? It almost sounds like you don’t believe in Hell because you don’t like the concept of it.
 
Also, to previous posters, I apologize. When I spoke of Hell being possibly empty, I meant that it is possibly empty of human souls. I was not meaning that Hell is empty of the Devil and his demons. Sorry for the clumsy phrasing!
 
I believe the RCC teaches that satan/Lucifer is in hell along with the rest of the fallen angels. I do not believe the RCC teaches that hell could be empty. as for human souls in hell, well according to the apostles creed Jesus descended in to hell to preach His Gospel to the righteous who died before Jesus opened the gates to heaven.

of course, apostates may believe that there was no need for Jesus to open the gates of heaven because the Holy Trinity had entrance to heaven already covered with some unknown spiritual mechanism, never mentioned by Jesus, but alluded to by von balthazaar and others with too much time on their hands, imho.

I always believed that the only reason God became man was for our salvation and mankind’s redemption. if we never needed salvation, Jesus suffered for nothing and I refuse to believe that makes any rational sense.
 
do some theologians speculate that God will somehow force souls to love Him. more likely those who are imagining the mystical means of salvation that precludes any human souls in hell would rather call this mechanism an influx of super-supernatural grace that somehow respects freewill while simultaneously reversing it. this renders Jesus sacrifice mostly meaningless and unnecessary.

I suppose they could imagine that this super-supernatural grace only came about because of the Incarnation, but that still leaves those who died outside of a state of sanctifying grace and non-repentant before Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross in hell.

where in scripture or in the early church fathers is such a concept, super-supernatural grace imputed to the soul at the moment of or moments leading up to death, found?

such speculation is not heretical, but it should be based on the Gospel. all of the things Jesus taught were really just a way to get a jump start on those souls who will not be saved until the moment of their death. also, why would Jesus not have taught that everyone will be saved if it is true.

God did not create anyone to go to hell. hopefully we can all agree on that. God did not create sin, original or actual. hopefully we can all agree on that. God did not create hell. hopefully we can all agree on that.

hell exists in the same realm as purgatory and heaven, the realm of spirit and glorified creation.
 
Hans Urs von Balthasar (who was elected Cardinal but died before being created), wrote a book on the subject: Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved? A Short Discourse on Hell. Here it is at Amazon.
Here’s a quote from the book:
We are allowed to hope that no human is eternally damned. This is a founded theological hope, it is not a certitude. Indeed each person must existentially live with the real possibility that he or she might be doomed. The thesis itself is prompted, we believe, by mercy.
 
I’m a Christian, but there is no chance I will ever believe in hell.
Then why did we need a savior? Saved from WHAT?

BTW, what Christian group do you belong to?
c:
If this place was real (which its not) - do you not think Jesus would have spoken about it a bit more than he did? How much did he talk about hell? hmmm, nothing.
As St Jerome wrote, ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.

Jesus teaching came to us in 2 forms. Here are a few examples of Him teaching on hell


  1. *]His direct teaching Matthew 10:28 , Matthew 13:42 , Matthew 13:50 , Matthew 25:41 , Matthew 25:46 , Mark 9:43 , Luke 16:19-31
    *]Through The Holy Spirit who doesn’t speak on His own but only passes on what He receives from Jesus John 16:12-15 therefore, the sins Paul lists and describes in this post #32, all having disasterous effects on one’s soul, comes from the HS which ultimately got that from Jesus.

    So Jesus taught plenty on hell.
    c:
    Here is a question - Jesus actually told us where Heaven is… anyone on here remember?
    “man will search high and low for the kingdom of God but will never find it - for what he does not know is that - the kingdom is inside him”. We are already in Heaven guys… we are spirits already - Perhaps hell is something we can visit now - if we are not careful with our life chooses…
    We are body **and **soul. The body is mortal it lives it dies. The soul, given to us by God at our conception, is immortal. It lives forever. It doesn’t die. So the question is, where is forever going to be for each soul…heaven or hell? Both places exist.

    BTW, at the end of the world, when all bodies are resurrected and reunited with the soul, If the soul was in heaven the soul is now together with the body again, in heaven. The same is true for the souls in hell. And it is forever.
    c:
    live in love/follow the teachings of Christ - you are already there… no fear of the boogie man.
    If there is no fear of the boogie man, why did Jesus give all those warnings above? He’s God, He doesn’t mislead, He can’t lie.

    As far as following the teachings of Christ, one can’t do that if they aren’t a faithful Catholic. Ask me how that is 😉
    c:
    The hell story is just first testament nonsense.
    Now you know differently
    c:
    How many people read that one… we don’t belive people lived to be 900 anymore, we don’t believe in a lot of the text from the first commandment… yet some people belive in hell…
    Read the second testament… you’ll find the answers there… He gave them to us a long time ago.
    You demonstrate you don’t know the NT. I’m curious, who gave you your teaching?
 
Therefore, any Catholic is free to hope that hell is empty.
I do hope this is true.

And yet…

I remember a story a co-worker told of her grandfather. She related how her grandfather dragged her grandmother across the kitchen floor by her hair because she burned his breakfast.

By. Her. Hair.

Because she…burned his toast.

It would be extremely satisfying to me to know that there is a place for people like this.

So I waver between hoping that there truly is no one experiencing such horrible torment…and wanting to know that justice is indeed served to men such as these who are brutal, sadistic and evil.
 
I probably sounded a little doctrinaire, but I really do pray every day for the salvation of ALL souls. but to pray for the salvation of souls is also to acknowledge the existence of hell and the possibility that souls can go there.

I think about the transformation that has occurred in my own soul due to the graces I have received through faith in Jesus Christ and I wonder about those souls who do not have faith and how the transformation I have experienced over the years and am still experiencing can be experienced by them.

grace has not been a one time infusion resulting in transformation of my life, it has been an ongoing event and often with struggle. but it has been an experience that would not have been possible without faith in Jesus. even noah, Abraham, moses and Elijah, with all of their righteousness their divinely ordained roles, their goodness and God’s influences and graces, were unable to experience the divine mysteries without faith in Jesus.

our souls are the source of both our free wills and our intellects. I believe salvation necessarily has an intellectual aspect as well as an aspect of freely given love.
 
I do hope this is true.

And yet…

I remember a story a co-worker told of her grandfather. She related how her grandfather dragged her grandmother across the kitchen floor by her hair because she burned his breakfast.

By. Her. Hair.

Because she…burned his toast.

It would be extremely satisfying to me to know that there is a place for people like this.

So I waver between hoping that there truly is no one experiencing such horrible torment…and wanting to know that justice is indeed served to men such as these who are brutal, sadistic and evil.
I don’t know man. I mean a guy who drags his wife by her hair over burnt toast has obviously got more going on than a hatred of burnt toast. He’s obviously missing a bit of heart too. So yeah. A guy like that deserves to be made to eat that toast for sure. And to apologize. And maybe even to get dragged around by the hair a bit. But I’m not sure any of us would really be all that comfortable watching him scream in agony for an eternity for that.

But that’s just it. I mean in a way I think maybe we’re a little too soft on sin in general. A little too ready to bend under the weight of it. So we don’t even really want it truly punished in the end either. But that’s not our call is it? We don’t get to decide what God lets slide and what He doesn’t. Just like every defective product gets thrown down the chute to the shredder on a production line. Every soul not up to standard might get the same treatment. And I mean it has nothing to do with how we feel about it. If hell’s a brute fact we’ve got to live as if it’s a brute fact. Until God says otherwise. Until we’re told something different. Because right now? According to Jesus’ own words it’s on. That fire’s lit. And some of us are going to go there. Even maybe with a look of surprise.

I don’t know. It’s a scary thing. But then God’s made lots of other scary things. Like black holes. And tornadoes. And sharks. I mean scary is God’s middle name if you think about it. So I guess we just have to behave as best we can. Because God’s watching us. Maybe as a loving father, sure. But also as a father with a full follow-through. A very strong eye for detail. Good or bad.

Peace PR.

-Trident
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top