How Can Atheists Remain Atheists?

[AntiTheist]

There is no proof that the bible was written by eye witness accounts. The authors are not known, they are assumed.

Even more to the point, even if we could know 100% for sure that the Bible was written by eyewitnesses, it would not prove that magic (or “miralces”) happened.

Eyewitness testimony is not sufficient to demonstrate that magic happened. There are eyewitness accounts of people alive today who will tell you their testimony of being abducted by aliens – sometimes multiple people at once! And these are people you can go and talk to right now, not some second-hand story that got passed down through a cult of dedicated disciples.

Accounts of magic aren’t uncommon in Greek and Roman histories, either, where magical claims were used to bolster the reputation of great men like generals and emperors. It isn’t at all hard to believe that if there really were a popular holy man preaching around 30 CE, his followers would attribute magic to him in the stories that they told about him after his death. It would be somewhat surprising if there were no magical legends attached to such a figure.

That’s how Atheists can remain Atheists…by lack of proof of people’s claims

Indeed. Some people just have a lower standard of evidence, most likely because they are motivated by wanting something to be true.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Even more to the point, even if we could know 100% for sure that the Bible was written by eyewitnesses, it would not prove that magic (or “miralces”) happened.
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A very good point and totally right!

Indeed. Some people just have a lower standard of evidence, most likely because they are motivated by wanting something to be true.

(Bold mine)
You hit the nail on the head there! +1 to you!

 

[bridgeforsale]

The “Creator” does not have to answer the objections of the “created.”

whatever

 

[SHW]

…excerpt…

So cast away your reason and capacity for abstract thought, those qualities which distinguish us from other animals. “Who can comprehend…?!” Who, indeed.

You have no idea what our IQ’s or reasoning abilities are. My “truth” just doesn’t happen to agree with yours. If I am correct about God, then I have a wonderful future to look forward to, but you do not. If you are correct, then I will not be any worse off than you in the future. Based on these two possible outcomes for my future, I choose to believe in God and learn what I must do in order to inherit eternal life. Makes good sense to me.

It doesn’t help to believe in an all-knowing, all powerful, all-loving god who permits incomprehensible evils. It is pathetic to listen to believers say, “Why me?!”–Why not? Why should the god they believe in choose to favor* them,* when he favors no other believers–or anyone else, for that matter?

God does not cause the evil. Men cause the evil. God gave His gift of free will to each and every person that He created. Evil happens because people choose to do evil. Eventually, everyone will make an accounting of even their idle words Matthew 12:36. He will make it all “right” once again at the end of “time” just as it was before Adam sinned. Good will then be eternally rewarded and evil eternally punished. God permits the evil for now, but we know that “all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose,” even evil Romans 8:28. God hopes that people will repent and serve Him so that they can be saved and enjoy His presence forever 2 Peter 3:9.

As an aside, why do you bother with all the quotes? Why do you think quotations from the Holy Scrolls (viz. Planet of the Apes) would be persuasive? How long did it take you to type all that, or do you have all of it carefully stored for all occasions?

Why do you think that you can come as a guest to a Catholic forum and not discuss Scripture?

Why are Scripture quotes persuasive to most people, but not to persons such as yourself? I don’t see you offering anything else even remotely intellectually satisfying as Scripture.

These Scriptures are stored in my mind. It only takes a few seconds to find each of them online so that I can insert them into my posts for easy access for others.

People may think it’s worth it not to question, because* they’re* going to heaven–why so sure? Maybe they’ll commit some mortal sin at the last minute and go to hell instead! Parents judge their children on the* balance *of their actions, but apparently god doesn’t, so a last-minute slip may mean the everlasting bonfire!

People are presumptuous if they believe that they are going to heaven “no matter what.” Perhaps they will commit a mortal sin near the last moment of their lives and then die before they repent. Adultery and heart attack (and death) during the act of adultery come to mind as an example. Certain sins cause the loss of sanctifying/saving grace in the soul. These mortal sins automatically cause the person to sever his spiritual relationship with God. Unless he repents before death, this spiritual relationship with God is lost forever. His choice. His consequence.

A “good” spiritual relationship with God guarantees eternal life/light. “No” spiritual relationship with God guarantees eternal darkness because God is Light. He supplies the light. Turn away from Him/Light and you will suffer in eternal darkness 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 21:22-24. God forces no persons to serve Him, but they are in darkness forever if they do not. There are no other alternatives.

Jesus stated that few people actually inherit eternal life. I desire to be in that number Luke 13:22-28, so I will be “working out my own salvation with fear and trembling” Philippians 2:12, 1 Peter 1:16-19.

If you desire to be a guest on our forum, then please be respectful and capitalize the word “God” when referring to the God that we believe in.

 

[SHW]

Okay, so first, you use the words “we believe” meaning that it’s subjective. You are right there.
There is no proof that the bible was written by eye witness accounts. The authors are not known, they are assumed. It’s fine to assume, but you can’t use assumptions and derivatives of said assumptions to make points.
Also, with the estimated, researched dates that the bible books were dated, at best the writings are second-hand hearsay accounts from people that were well into their elderly years when they were supposed to have told their stories to the writers.

It’s fine to say “We believe” but without proof to back up that statement, it’s all that it is…assumptions.
[EDIT: That’s how Atheists can remain Atheists…by lack of proof of people’s claims]

His Church and His teachings have been in existence for nearly 2000 years and they have been passed down to us through unbroken Apostolic succession 2 Timothy 2:2. Scripture is helpful in teaching others, but it is the Church that is the support/pillar and foundation of the truth, not Scripture 1 Timothy 3:15.

The “teachings” of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, handed down from actual eyewitnesses throughout 2000 years of unbroken apostolic succession in His Church is not what I would call “assumption.”

 

[distracted]

It’s not an attempt to “deflect the question.” There’s zero evidence to believe that a god exists.

My name is “AntiTheist” because I wish to distinguish myself from atheists who wish that there were evidence for the existence of god. I’m quite glad that there is no evidence for the existence of any god because the idea, in many of its manifestations, is simply monstrous.

No.

Congratulations on missing the point. We don’t have to “explain every aspect” of a claim in full scientific detail to reject a supernatural explanation. “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer.

i know someone who claims to be an atheist and you khow what is monstrous???

he is…

seroiusly… used to be a Christian… now he is uh… hate to use these kinds of words, but i can’t think of a better one… he is now a devil… i am NOT kidding!!!

all that comes out of his mouth (or other correspondences) is filth and hatred…

no thanks… i don’t like atheism… no sirreeee…

 

[cheese_sdc]

How Can Atheists Remain Atheists?

The same way believers remain believers.

 

[Bear_Claw]

His Church and His teachings have been in existence for nearly 2000 years and they have been passed down to us through unbroken Apostolic succession 2 Timothy 2:2. Scripture is helpful in teaching others, but it is the Church that is the support/pillar and foundation of the truth, not Scripture 1 Timothy 3:15.

The “teachings” of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, handed down from actual eyewitnesses throughout 2000 years of unbroken apostolic succession in His Church is not what I would call “assumption.”

There you go with the eye witness assumption again. The entire basis of your faith starts on assumptions that has never been proven.

The bible is a second hand re-telling taken from geriatrics, at best.
And even if appostolic succession is valid, it doesn’t make the claims true. Without verifiable external facts to corroborate things, your claims is just a legend.

Hey, I can tell you a tale of my great, great grand-daddy killing a bear with his bare hands, but who knows, maybe that was exaggerated in the re-telling…Just because I can trace my lineage back to someone named Fank (not really Frank ) don’t make it true that he actually killed a bear with his bare hands.

Not even the bible admits it’s authors. The gospels assume it’s authors. Then you take that assumption and claim eye witness accounts.
Then we also have versions and translations of the bible that differ…and even worse, re-telling of legends opens itself up to mane exaggerations…

My only point is all this is don’t assume that it’s true because they tell you it is. Research and try to at least verify their claims.
I know the people default back to the bishops teachings because “with our 40 odd years of life, how can we do better than 2000 years of succession”. I’ve heard that before…but test things…heck, that’s even in the bible! Test what they tell you. Who wrote the gospels? Did they see Jesus? If not, where did they get their stories from? Etc, etc.

Oh whatever…I know it’s all talking to the wind here anyway, because as soon as people reach that brick wall in their research, they just default back to “The Holy Spirit did it, so it’s gotta be true”
I don’t blame that conclusion, because it’s what they’ve been taught from a very young age…taught to think that…see what I’m getting at?

Think for yourself…research and test claims.
Just because it’s 2000 years old don’t make it true…if that was the case, we’d all be Hindus, right?

 

[AntiTheist]

i know someone who claims to be an atheist …] all that comes out of his mouth (or other correspondences) is filth and hatred…

I fail to see a connection between atheism and some guy who uses bad words.

 

[anode]

i know someone who claims to be an atheist and you khow what is monstrous???

he is…

seroiusly… used to be a Christian… now he is uh… hate to use these kinds of words, but i can’t think of a better one… he is now a devil… i am NOT kidding!!!

all that comes out of his mouth (or other correspondences) is filth and hatred…

no thanks… i don’t like atheism… no sirreeee…

I am amazed at the hatred expressed in many of the God-fearing posters on this forum and phatmass. Rage and hatred. They don’t swear, as I think that it’s not allowed, but it sounds as if they would if they could.

The person you know may be mentally unbalanced.

 

[bridgeforsale]

rage and curse words are great

 

[SHW]

Think for yourself…research and test claims.
Just because it’s 2000 years old don’t make it true…if that was the case, we’d all be Hindus, right?

**Faith in the eyewitnesses and their accounts of events is necessary in order to believe. **Since these Catholic Church eyewitnesses faced death and still did not recant their testimonies, I believe them. I am Catholic because I believe what the Catholic Church states about itself and about Jesus. There is also a written record called the Bible which documents some of these Catholic Church’s teachings and also some of its history. The Catholic Church’s 2000 years of unbroken apostolic succession and its unchanged teaching on faith and morals is truly amazing.

Each person has to decide for himself. Does he choose to believe in nothing (Atheism) or Someone (God)? For any person to actually believe that our universe all happened by chance out of nothing is certainly more difficult to believe than it is to believe that a Supernatural Power created our universe out of nothing. I look up at the sky at night and I realize how insignificant I truly am, yet I am more complex in design than any other created thing. I know very little about my own physical, mental, and spiritual “make-up.” I exist, but I did not create myself. An Intelligent Being far greater than me has to be responsible for my existence.

Fascinating Facts:

Did you know that God announced the birth of Christ in the stars, moon, etc. and their movements in the universe? Genesis 1:16, Matthew 2:1-2
**
In order for Him to do this, all of this had to be planned before the foundation of the world** 1 Peter 1:20. You can check it out at:

bethlehemstar.net/ (This is not a Catholic site. A DVD can be purchased at this site.)
**
God’s foreordained plan for His Son’s birth and death to be revealed in the stars and their movements at the relevant time is truly amazing.** I have this DVD. I highly recommend it. Our God is an awesome God Deuteronomy 10:17.

The Starry Dance (announcing the birth of Christ):

bethlehemstar.net/dance/dance.htm

Also, the Angel Gabriel’s annunciation to Mary and the conception of Jesus was announced in the movements of the stars also. Luke 1:26-38

This event involved Leo, Virgo, Jupiter, and Regulus.

Also, our Lady of Guadalupe’s (Blessed Virgin Mary) image has the constellations depicted on her mantle. The baby Jesus (Mary is pregnant) is located under the constellation Leo (“Regulus” star of Leo means “king”) and this King comes from the tribe of Judah Genesis 49:9.

jkmi.com/ologimage.htm

catholicintl.com/catholicissues/New_Discoveries_on_the_Tilma.pdf

 

[Bear_Claw]

Faith in the eyewitnesses and their accounts of events is necessary in order to believe.

Exactly. You are taking a 2000 year old re-telling as fact without even the slightest need to verify…that’s blind faith.

Since these Catholic Church eyewitnesses faced death and still did not recant their testimonies, I believe them.

I am Catholic because I believe what the Catholic Church states about itself and about Jesus.

That’s great, but that’s your subjective opinion.

There is also a written record called the Bible which documents some of these Catholic Church’s teachings and also some of its history. The Catholic Church’s 2000 years of unbroken apostolic succession and its unchanged teaching on faith and morals is truly amazing.

Unchanged, hu?..So, how’s your slave working out for you? And maybe you still subscribe to the teaching that life begins at “quickening”? But I digress…

Each person has to decide for himself. Does he choose to believe in nothing (Atheism) or Someone (God)? For any person to actually believe that our universe all happened by chance out of nothing is certainly more difficult to believe than it is to believe that a Supernatural Power created our universe out of nothing. I look up at the sky at night and I realize how insignificant I truly am, yet I am more complex in design than any other created thing. I know very little about my own physical, mental, and spiritual “make-up.” I exist, but I did not create myself. An Intelligent Being far greater than me has to be responsible for my existence.

Again… That’s great, but that’s your subjective opinion.
All of the above are much easier explainable by looking at researched and verified findings and conclusions on compositions of planets, gravitational forces, Astronomical observations, evolution, natural selection, etc, etc… rather than just saying Mr. Invisible did it.
Yeah, you are free to believe what you want to believe, but I can’t understand how you can believe what you do, with the amount of dubious evidence at your disposal.
I choose to believe what the best and most researched and proven facts available to me point me to. That is the most rational stance. And that is that there is no god.

Also, the Angel Gabriel’s annunciation to Mary and the conception of Jesus was announced in the movements of the stars also. Luke 1:26-38
Also, our Lady of Guadalupe’s (Blessed Virgin Mary) image has the constellations depicted on her mantle. The baby Jesus (Mary is pregnant) is located under the constellation Leo (“Regulus” star of Leo means “king”) and this King comes from the tribe of Judah Genesis 49:9.

Astrologers have been dreaming up mythologies based on what they saw in the starts for centuries…what makes the ancheint hebrews any different?
If I can see a dragon when I look at the clouds, you can see the baby jesus when you look at the stars, sure.

I say again: I choose to believe what the best and most researched and proven facts available to me point me to. That is the most rational stance. And that is that there is no god.

 

[SHW]

Exactly. You are taking a 2000 year old re-telling as fact without even the slightest need to verify…that’s blind faith.

And how is this worse than believing in “nothing?”

Unchanged, hu?..So, how’s your slave working out for you? And maybe you still subscribe to the teaching that life begins at “quickening”? But I digress…

Jesus did not come to abolish slavery. He lets humans work out solutions to those types of “problems.” Why haven’t Atheists banned slavery everywhere in the world? They’ve had more time than Christians to solve this problem. Christians have only been around for 2000 years. Atheists have existed for thousands of years longer.

As for “quickening,” people were allowed to debate their own opinions about it until the Church made the ruling that we must believe that life begins at conception. John 16:13

All of the above are much easier explainable by looking at researched and verified findings and conclusions on compositions of planets, gravitational forces, Astronomical observations, evolution, natural selection, etc, etc… rather than just saying Mr. Invisible did it.

Who masterminded creation? Who created the elements, gases, etc. that were necessary for life? Who put them into motion? You say “nothing.” I say “God.” Which is more reasonable to believe? I think “God.”

Astrologers have been dreaming up mythologies based on what they saw in the starts for centuries…what makes the ancheint hebrews any different?
If I can see a dragon when I look at the clouds, you can see the baby jesus when you look at the stars, sure.

I say again: I choose to believe what the best and most researched and proven facts available to me point me to. That is the most rational stance. And that is that there is no god.

No, I do not see the baby Jesus when I look at the stars. However, a computer program exists that shows what the skies looked like when Jesus was conceived in September of 3 B.C. God put the stars in the sky. Job 9:9

The computer program and Biblical events also show that He died on April 3, 33 A.D.

They show that the Magi visited Him on December 25, 2 B.C.

I am happy that I have something to look forward to after I die. 1 Corinthians 2:9 It gives me joy now.

 

[Bear_Claw]

I’ll just comment on this one point…the rest…yeah well…again with the scriptures and hearsay.

Who masterminded creation? Who created the elements, gases, etc. that were necessary for life? Who put them into motion? You say “nothing.” I say “God.” Which is more reasonable to believe? I think “God.”

Incorrect…I say “We don’t know yet”… I say “Let’s not pint this on something that we have no proof for…Let’s do research and see what we scientifically deduce…that we can trust the results of.”

You’re using the “god of the gaps” argument. You say “I’m not sure what or why this happened, so instead of enquiring and researching, we’ll just say god did it.” Then you follow that “conclusion” through blind faith and get angry at anyone who contradicts you. (And of course I’m using “you” here in the universal sense, not you personally

Again, it’s an assumption that you use to base your whole faith on…see what I’m getting at?

 

[SHW]

I’ll just comment on this one point…the rest…yeah well…again with the scriptures and hearsay.

Incorrect…I say “We don’t know yet”… I say “Let’s not pint this on something that we have no proof for…Let’s do research and see what we scientifically deduce…that we can trust the results of.”

You’re using the “god of the gaps” argument. You say “I’m not sure what or why this happened, so instead of enquiring and researching, we’ll just say god did it.” Then you follow that “conclusion” through blind faith and get angry at anyone who contradicts you. (And of course I’m using “you” here in the universal sense, not you personally

Again, it’s an assumption that you use to base your whole faith on…see what I’m getting at?

I understand what you are saying. However, most Atheists have already made up their minds and have already concluded that God does not exist. They believe that the universe created itself.

My faith is not blind faith, it is reasoned faith.

“Nothing” has the power/ability to create “nothing.” “Nothing” does not exist and therefore “nothing” cannot create “something” such as our universe.

 

[SHW]

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one - George Bernard Shaw

**
No drunken man can possibly be truly happier than a sober one.** A drunken man is master of nothing, least of all himself; whereas a sober man at least has the possibility of becoming master over his own passions (himself).

If the sober man does master himself, including his tongue, then he will be known as trustworthy and honorable among all men whether they be skeptics or believers. This is not possible for a drunken man.

 

[Bear_Claw]

I understand what you are saying.

Umm, no you don’t…otherwise you wouldn’t have defaulted back to the word “nothing” In my post I stated that we don’t say “nothing” we state that “we don’t know yet.”

However, most Atheists have already made up their minds and have already concluded that God does not exist. They believe that the universe created itself.

Incorrect.
By the evidence at hand, I have concluded that god doesn’t exist, yes. But that’s with the evidence we have available to us. However, if definitive evidence were to present itself, I, like most atheists, would be willing to change. However, even with all the millions of claims out there, no proof has been able to stand up to even the most basic scientific tests…
Claims are nothing but hypothesis without lack of evidence…

My faith is not blind faith, it is reasoned faith.

Yes, but it’s reasoned from hearsay and unproven stories…

“Nothing” has the power/ability to create “nothing.” “Nothing” does not exist and therefore “nothing” cannot create “something” such as our universe.

See above…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Do atheists believe in the intangibles? Such as beauty, hope, tenderness, mercy, kindness and love? Because these are the manifestations of God. Faith is a gift received from the Holy Spirit. Once you receive it there is no turning back.

From St. Augustine:
"There are those who think that the Christian religion is what we should smile at rather than hold fast, for this reason, that, in it, not what may be seen, is shown, but men are commanded faith of things which are not seen.

We therefore, that we may refute these, who seem to themselves through prudence to be unwilling to believe what they cannot see, although we are not able to show unto human sight those divine things which we believe, yet do show unto human minds that even those things which are not seen are to be believed."

 

[Bear_Claw]

Because these are the manifestations of God.

I submit that only your perception that it’s manifestations from god.

Faith is a gift received from the Holy Spirit. Once you receive it there is no turning back.

Incorrect…many, many people once had faith and lost it…some willingly, others didn’t want to loose it, but they did anyway.

I was speaking to a woman recently who was in a crisis of faith. She REALLY didn’t want to loose faith in God and was crying out for him to help her. She knew that the bible says that faith is a gift from god…she reminded god of this in prayer…she begged and implored him…with no other thoughts, except to be at god’s bosom again…well, if there is a god, he left her high and dry…she’s agnostic now.
This is a VERY similar story and is the story of many, many good, (once) godfearing people…
The fact is that when the bible says that faith it a gift from god, it contraditcs itself on the teaching that anyone and everyone can get to heaven.

If the gift of faith is given at god’s discression, then no matter how hard some people try (and I saw how hard they do) they will never get to heaven. Yeah, I know that you’ll tell me that her time was not god’s time and she should have waited.
However, god (supposedly) knows her heart and knows that if he doesn’t give her the faith she craves at that specific time, she will turn her back on him.
If he knows this and he still does nothing…then he has no right to send her to hell on judgement day.
It was his choice to share his gift with her at her crucial moment…he chose not to let her get into heaven and he’ll punish her for his choice too…funny how god works, eh?

So…even if god was real and he gave me some faith…what would make me more special than the woman begging him for the gift of faith and him not responding to her?
It’s like the cool kids circle at school…no matter how hard some kids try, they’ll never get in.

No thanks…