How can corrupt Church Leaders be Infallible?

[trogiah]

NotWorthy:

Very good points! I agree totally with what you’ve said… So Far!

Thanks for the encouragement

NotWorthy:

Oooooh! I think you’re on your own on this one!

I know it is a bit of a stretch. Many scholars of the two world wars point to the rise of Nationalism as a factor leading to those two wars.

By Nationalism I mean the idea that a German thought of himself first and foremost as a German, An Englishman thought of himself primarily as English, etc.

If all people had thought of themselves as Christians, (or really, if they had any common identity) it seems reasonable that they would have been less likely to slaughter each other. The fact that the Christian identity had been divided - into Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, etc. removed probably the only possible common identity that Europeans could have had.

Anyway, just a thought.

I am certain that Unity does matter and that one of the ways we can help foster Unity is to not advocate the breaking away from historically established authority even when it shows itself to be deeply flawed.

peace

-Jim

 

[Franz]

squeekster:

I don’t know which “protestants” you’ve been talking to. Catholics continually claim that protestants “misrepresent”, “misunderstand” or the all time favorite “hate” Catholic’s. Yet here we see a prime example of a Catholic doing the EXACT SAME THING.

Most “protestants” I know don’t believe that Jesus simply “came to establish the Bible” any more than Catholics believe that pink unicorns are the keepers of tradition.

This has actually what I’ve been told by a couple of Protestant friends, so please do not label me as someone who “hates” anyone. My mistake is labeling all protestants in the same category.

 

[squeekster]

Franz:

This has actually what I’ve been told by a couple of Protestant friends, so please do not label me as someone who “hates” anyone. My mistake is labeling all protestants in the same category.

I wasn’t trying to label anyone, and certainly wasn’t trying to insinuate that you hate anyone. I apologize if it seemed that way.

But, to be honest, I can’t begin to count how many times over the years (never here, just for the record) I’ve been labeled as a “hater” or that I “don’t understand” or that I “misunderstand” something for no more of a reason than because I believe some of the Catholic doctrines and/or teachings are simply so unscriptural that it is inexcuseable.

 

[NotWorthy]

squeekster:

I don’t know which “protestants” you’ve been talking to. Catholics continually claim that protestants “misrepresent”, “misunderstand” or the all time favorite “hate” Catholic’s. Yet here we see a prime example of a Catholic doing the EXACT SAME THING.

Most “protestants” I know don’t believe that Jesus simply “came to establish the Bible” any more than Catholics believe that pink unicorns are the keepers of tradition.

You need to come down to the Bible Belt (I didn’t check to see where you’re from, sorry), where almost every other church you passed claims to be a “Bible only” Church. What are we supposed to make of these claims.

Others, like the Church of Christ, claim that “where the bible speaks, so shall ye speak. Where the bible is silent, so shall ye be silent”. I’ve seen a tape by their church leaders that flat out makes the claim: Christ left us His word: a smacks his hand on a Bible.

Again, what else are we supposed to make of these claims?!?!?

NotWorthy

 

[skattas]

edward_george:

Let’s say the Pope (that is, its teaching authority) was given a Calculus test. Let’s also assume that he is infallible in matters, not of faith and morals, but of Calculus. Now, when he takes that test, how many questions will he get right?

Infallibility isn’t a guarantee that he’ll put any answer down. If he doesn’t know the answer, he won’t put a wrong one down. Infallibility will prevent him from putting the wrong answer down. How he does on his Calculus test has nothing to do with his personal sanctity, either. He could be the saintliest saint or the lowest hellbeast and still perform in the same way.

The thing is, many confuse “infallibility” with “impeccability.” When the Pope, in his office as a teacher of the Church, or all the Bishops together make a pronouncement that is declared to be infallible and is in regard to faith and morals, they are prevented by the Holy Spirit from making a wrong teaching. This is how the Deposit of Faith has been preserved by the Church since the very beginning (cf. Matt 16:18-19 “And the gates of hell will not prevail against it”).

Impeccability would mean free from sin (pecca being the Latin root that is found in the word peccatoribus meaning sinners). We do not believe that the Pope or any of the Bishops are impeccable; in fact throughout history there have been a handfull of bad Popes. But none of them ever made a teaching that contradicted the Deposit of Faith.

In short, the Pope and the Bishops (when the Bishops are teaching together and not individually–only the Pope has individual infallibility) are teaching, they are prevented from “putting down the wrong answers” so to speak.

For a better explanation, consult www.catholic.com

Hope that helps…forgive my longwindedness!

-ACEGC

Wow, this is a very clear and effective explanation; thank you!! I gues my problem lies with the fact that I find it hard to seperate the person’s life (outside the Church) with the life they have inside the church. I just ask myself why God would allow some Popes, who have done horrible things in the past, to be granted the honor to interpret infallibly. I don’t comprehend how, with this profound gift of understanding the complexity of God’s word, a Pope would be able to do anything outside of what is right. Now, I know that human nature and sin is to blame, but I strongly believe that it would be hard to do something abominable one morning, and then later that day have God reveal his word and truth to me. I don’t know if God would use servants that are blatantly disrespecting the very thing it means to be a christian—to live like Christ. I don’t think, like the Catholic faith teaches, that the Pope’s ability to interpret scripture can be seperated with their christian walk and example. Christianity isn’t only a way of life or what you do, say, what your post within the Church is…it’s who and what you are. It’s in every word, every deed, every breath. God does not reward a deliberately sinful heart an honor such that the Catholics believe the Popes have. It’s just a real and strong obstacle for me. My common sense isn’t allowing me to comprehend, and my life and dedication as a christian is fuelling my common sense. It’s very hard for me to see how one can seperate the two and ignore on when it comes time, and ignore the other when called to do so.
I hope I did not offend anyone; it’s just a frustrating matter. I don’t mean any harm in this, and it was not written malisciously. Thank you so much for your effort, it really is helping me.

God Bless

 

[skattas]

Magicsilence:

As a catholic, this does confuse me too. I know that in principle just because someone is a bad guy doesnt mean they cant interpret infallibly, but why would God let someone become pope when there must have been a better alternative. Those who were mad,corrupt etc… dont invalidate the claims of the RCC but they have made it a point which protestants find hard to accept. I wonder if this might do well in the ask an apologist page.

Thank you!!! I thought that I was the only one struggling with this!!! I appreciate your understanding and honesty. It’s nice to know I’m on the right “asking” track.

God Bless!

 

[skattas]

With no disrespect meant to the original poster, I sometimes question the faith those who dismiss Church authority because of the sinful actions of men. God will protect His Church.
[/quote]

No offense taken. I just wonder how some epople get so caught up in the Church that they forget that they have a right to doubt and question. Sometimes, when people believe the fact that Jesus will protect his Church and leave it at that it leads to laziness in their personal and progressive journey to come closer to God in a personal way. It’s very easy to say that God will protect his Church as the answer to all doubt, but God doesn’t reward complacency. He wants us to question and hold each other accountable…if that stops, your authorities are living your relationship with God for you.
Thanks for your thoughts.

God Bless

 

[Sherlock]

skattas:

Wow, this is a very clear and effective explanation; thank you!! I gues my problem lies with the fact that I find it hard to seperate the person’s life (outside the Church) with the life they have inside the church. I just ask myself why God would allow some Popes, who have done horrible things in the past, to be granted the honor to interpret infallibly. I don’t comprehend how, with this profound gift of understanding the complexity of God’s word, a Pope would be able to do anything outside of what is right. Now, I know that human nature and sin is to blame, but I strongly believe that it would be hard to do something abominable one morning, and then later that day have God reveal his word and truth to me. I don’t know if God would use servants that are blatantly disrespecting the very thing it means to be a christian—to live like Christ. I don’t think, like the Catholic faith teaches, that the Pope’s ability to interpret scripture can be seperated with their christian walk and example. Christianity isn’t only a way of life or what you do, say, what your post within the Church is…it’s who and what you are. It’s in every word, every deed, every breath. God does not reward a deliberately sinful heart an honor such that the Catholics believe the Popes have. It’s just a real and strong obstacle for me. My common sense isn’t allowing me to comprehend, and my life and dedication as a christian is fuelling my common sense. It’s very hard for me to see how one can seperate the two and ignore on when it comes time, and ignore the other when called to do so.
I hope I did not offend anyone; it’s just a frustrating matter. I don’t mean any harm in this, and it was not written malisciously. Thank you so much for your effort, it really is helping me.

God Bless

God has a history of using flawed instruments—man. Look at David, Solomon, Peter, Paul… You wrote that you “strongly believe that it would be hard to do something abominable one morning, and then later that day have God reveal his word and truth to me”, but isn’t that just what Paul was doing, persecuting Christ’s Church (and thus Him) one day, and the next changing his life? You are looking at the papacy as a solely human institution, but we believe that God is with His Church. Which is probably why he can do so well with sometimes crummy material. Nor do I think that a dozen bad popes in 2000 years is too awful (though obviously I wish there were none). No human monarchy or any other form of government could show such a small percentage of lousy leaders vs. good, and none of them have lasted as long as the Church has. Which implies an integrity that is much more than man is able to accomplish by himself. So, sure, it is impossible for man alone to be a pig one day and then a saint the next. But it isn’t impossible with God.

 

[Franz]

skattas:

I don’t think, like the Catholic faith teaches, that the Pope’s ability to interpret scripture can be seperated with their christian walk and example. Christianity isn’t only a way of life or what you do, say, what your post within the Church is…it’s who and what you are. It’s in every word, every deed, every breath. God does not reward a deliberately sinful heart an honor such that the Catholics believe the Popes have. It’s just a real and strong obstacle for me. My common sense isn’t allowing me to comprehend, and my life and dedication as a christian is fuelling my common sense. It’s very hard for me to see how one can seperate the two and ignore on when it comes time, and ignore the other when called to do so.
God Bless

Hi Skattas, you are not offending anyone. I ask that you review my earlier post #11. Here it is, and it touches on exactly this obstacle you have:

The Special gift of infallibility has nothing to do with the moral perfection of the Church’s members (which other have noted refers to Impeccability). Even so, Protestant Christians should have no problem with the concept that sinners can teach infallibly.

The Bible is a perfect example. All its writers were sinners, but their writings are infallible. Just look at Peter. He denied Christ, was rebuked by one of his bishops (Paul), and yet wrote two infallible encyclicals. Moses, was a murderer and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they too wrote infallibly. God even allowed Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and helped to plot Jesus’ death.

God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints.

Hope this helps.

 

[mlchance]

skattas:

I gues my problem lies with the fact that I find it hard to seperate the person’s life (outside the Church) with the life they have inside the church. I just ask myself why God would allow some Popes, who have done horrible things in the past, to be granted the honor to interpret infallibly.

Generalize what you wrote to refer not specifically to popes, but to Christians in general being incorporated into the life of Christ by grace. The two aren’t that dissimiliar. Anytime God extends grace to any person, He extends that grace to a sinner who has done horrible things in the past.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

I remeber reading in the bible that Caphasis the High Preist whom had out to kill Jesus had acting as high preist phropshised “For the Sake of the nation this Jesus must die.” And this comeing from a High Preist who was Corrupt. So one would think that the conduct of a person holding a position does not affect the position itself and the divine foundation. If that applied to the High Preist postion which god set up I would only think it reasonable that it would apply to the Church hiarchy and the Popes. I hope this insight helps. Sorry about the spelling.

 

[gardenswithkids]

skattas:

No offense taken. I just wonder how some epople get so caught up in the Church that they forget that they have a right to doubt and question. Sometimes, when people believe the fact that Jesus will protect his Church and leave it at that it leads to laziness in their personal and progressive journey to come closer to God in a personal way. It’s very easy to say that God will protect his Church as the answer to all doubt, but God doesn’t reward complacency. He wants us to question and hold each other accountable…if that stops, your authorities are living your relationship with God for you.

Thanks for your thoughts.

God BlessI’m glad you didn’t take my comments personally. When I read the post that followed mine, I thought that I must have come across as being flippant to your original question.

I agree that some people become complacent and lazy, simply believing what they are told without question, and that can lead to problems. That applies to people in any religion, (and even atheists). I personally think that secular “dogmas” are probably the most unquestioned teachings in America today, while Catholic Church teachings are questioned by almost everyone inside and outside of the Church.

In the past, I attempted to blend my Christian faith with secularism. But somewhere along my way, I stopped listening to what the culture told me (and what made my life “easier”), and began entertaining thoughts that the Church teachings might be right. Rather than stopping my personal journey or making me lazy, it has taken me personally to a new level of faith in God and aided my relationship with Him.

It may be very easy to say that God will protect His Church, but it’s not always easy to believe. I do question our leaders, realizing that they too are flawed human beings in need of redemption. But my faith is not in the leaders; it’s in God. The alternative to trusting God to protect the teachings of the Catholic Church, is trusting myself to find another church that teaches the Bible correctly. I tried that route, and my journey lead me back to the Catholic Church.

If faith is completely understood, it ceases to be faith and instead becomes understanding. I don’t understand God, and I never will because His ways are so far above mine. Why He allowed some men into power is beyond me, but I suspect the same Jesus that allowed Judas to betray Him somehow knows what He’s doing.

Thanks for posting your questions, skattas, and for responding to my response so charitably. May God bless you in your walk of faith.

 

[Matt16_18]

Then the LORD opened the mouth of the a ss, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
Num. 22:28If God can speak the truth to man through an animal, what would prevent God from keeping a Pope from teaching an untruth ex cathedra to His church?

 

[LSK]

skattas:

I am an Evangelical seeking some questions about the Catholic Church. How can the leaders of the Catholic Church be seen as chosen when so many have become corrupt?

Now I’m not saying that this is the only church that has corruption in it (far from it!), but take my faith for example: We are allowed to question our leaders’ behavior both INSIDE and outside the church. How can those Catholic leaders who seem to have been chosen, are able to interpret so infallibly, be able to have been let run churches corruptly and live their lives in a corrupt manner?

I know this may offend some, but I tried to say it as clear and direct as possible. I’m not excluding other churches (Protestant, Orthodox…) but I am wondering mainly about the Catholic Church.

You asked a legit question, skattas. Thank you for being direct and for being respectful.

We are also allowed to question our leaders’ behavior. Many corrupt leaders, both lay and religious, have been removed from positions of power over the last 2 thousand years by the laity.

Infallibility applies to the Pope - and to the area of faith and morals. What is fascinating to look at, historically, is that even the most corrupt, ridiculous and downright stupid Popes have NEVER altered one item of Church teaching or dogma - it is as though the Holy Spirit has protected the Bride of Christ from people - and, as you have pointed out so eloquently, the biggest threat to The Church is that it is full of people.

There are some excellent tracts available on the Catholic Answers website. Why not read up on them and then see if youhave other questions that we can help you with?

God Bless you on your search for truth and unity!

 

[LSK]

skattas:

No offense taken. I just wonder how some epople get so caught up in the Church that they forget that they have a right to doubt and question. Sometimes, when people believe the fact that Jesus will protect his Church and leave it at that it leads to laziness in their personal and progressive journey to come closer to God in a personal way. It’s very easy to say that God will protect his Church as the answer to all doubt, but God doesn’t reward complacency. He wants us to question and hold each other accountable…if that stops, your authorities are living your relationship with God for you.
Thanks for your thoughts.

God Bless

I think you make a very good point, in that we - the Body of Christ - have an obligation to hold ourselves and our leaders to a standard of behavior demanded by Christ Himself. And we can, as people, become complacent and lazy (oh, gee…my spelling is a good example. forgive me!).

I am an obedient daughter of the Holy Mother Church, and I accept the teachings and Traditions. I even love learning more about the traditions (with a little ‘t’)! However, I also think I have an obligation to keep my eyes and ears open so as to help myself and others stay safe within the arms of the Church.

Does that make sense?

 

[vern_humphrey]

skattas:

I am an Evangelical seeking some questions about the Catholic Church. How can the leaders of the Catholic Church be seen as chosen when so many have become corrupt?

Now I’m not saying that this is the only church that has corruption in it (far from it!), but take my faith for example: We are allowed to question our leaders’ behavior both INSIDE and outside the church. How can those Catholic leaders who seem to have been chosen, are able to interpret so infallibly, be able to have been let run churches corruptly and live their lives in a corrupt manner?

I know this may offend some, but I tried to say it as clear and direct as possible. I’m not excluding other churches (Protestant, Orthodox…) but I am wondering mainly about the Catholic Church.

What you’re doing here is rehashing the Donatist Heresy.

Donatus, Bishop of Carthage, went to prison during the Great Persecution. Some other bishops, however, yielded up the altar vessels, scriptures, and so on. Others worked “deals,” turning over old books and crockery to the authorities and getting their names checked off.

Donatus proclaimed such persons were excommunicated. There was a quarrel between Donatus and Peter, Patriarch of Alexandria (nominally Donatus’ superior) who had hid during the first wave of persecution. In the course of the dispute, Donatus agreed such people could return to the church, but never resume their former offices. Peter held they were ordained, and while they must undergo penance, their sins did not invalidate their ordination.

Peter was later arrested and died bravely – which left his side with the moral high ground.

The implications of Donatism is that it makes the validity of a sacrament contigent on the state of grace of the celebrant. This is clearly a logical impossibility!

Imagine finding out after death that you were never baptized, because the one who baptized you wasn’t in a state of grace. Or being condemned for fornication, because the one who officiated at your marriage was in a state of sin!

The only logical answer is that all ecclesiastical acts of an ordained priest or bishop are valid based on their ordination, not on their sins or lack thereof. And therefore the Magisterium is not invalidated by the sins of individual priests or bishops.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Hi skattas,

I guess I really just don’t know why protestants have such a problem with papal infallibility. They believe that every person is infallible inasmuch of their ability to interpret scripture (partly thanks to Scripture Alone theology) and they all say that the Holy Spirit guides them. Yet, when the Pope, the leader of the Church that has been visible since the times of Christ declares an infallible statement in regards to faith and morals, they have a problem with it… I don’t see it as much as a problem with infallibility as with authority. Do you accept that the Church that Christ established was the Catholic Church? If you do then you accept the Scriptures which say that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her. Papal Infallibility is just a fulfillment of Christ’s promise to us that His church would never be led astray. Papal Infallibility is not a promise that the Pope will be a perfect man, because there was only one perfect man. Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the issue.

God bless!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Semper Fi:

Hi skattas,

I guess I really just don’t know why protestants have such a problem with papal infallibility. They believe that every person is infallible inasmuch of their ability to interpret scripture (partly thanks to Scripture Alone theology) and they all say that the Holy Spirit guides them. Yet, when the Pope, the leader of the Church that has been visible since the times of Christ declares an infallible statement in regards to faith and morals, they have a problem with it… I don’t see it as much as a problem with infallibility as with authority. Do you accept that the Church that Christ established was the Catholic Church? If you do then you accept the Scriptures which say that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her. Papal Infallibility is just a fulfillment of Christ’s promise to us that His church would never be led astray. Papal Infallibility is not a promise that the Pope will be a perfect man, because there was only one perfect man. Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the issue.

God bless!

One of the easiest arguments in favor of infallibility is that it works.

For almost two thousand years, the Catholic Church has been teaching a stable, coherent doctrine.

In about a quarter of that time., Protestantism has fragmented, split, splintered and squabbled to the point where there are literally tens of thousands of Protestatn sects – all claiming to teach the truth.

 

[sara888]

**“Protestantism has fragmented, split, splintered and squabbled to the point where there are literally tens of thousands of Protestatn sects – all claiming to teach the truth.”

I concur, well said.!

Sara**

 

[NotWorthy]

Back to the original question, if you look at the numerous times in the Old Testament and the New Testament, where the lineage is shown through numerous generations (Yes, I’ve got to admit I gloss over them, also), you’ll see proof of God’s love for His covenants.

Each of these lineages are proof that God keeps His Covenants, even though there are some mighty sinful people in the lineage.

Fast forward now to the Papal Succession. Once again, the lineage shows that God has kept His Covenant with the Church just as she has with Him, even if she suffered through some incorrigible leaders from time to time.

Take a look at today’s Protestant leaders. Would any of Billy Graham’s teachings be invalidated if it turns out he’s had hundreds of affairs? (Ok, I sincerely respect Billy Graham and I think he’s a great man. I’m only using this as an example, so please don’t flame me)

NotWorthy