How can God be against abortion when he ordered the deaths of Amalekite infants/children?

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Interesting point - I had a cancer removed … and the doc took out a perimeter of “good tissue” too - to make sure the cancer was completely removed. Skin cancer, not malignant BTW.

)
I think you make a good point that I thought you were going to touch on a little further and that is when you had your cancer removed, you had some good tissue removed as well. God, as the Good Doctor, in order to remove all the evil of the Amalekites, had to remove some of the “uninfected tissue” as well - the unborn and the infants, in order to make sure that none of the infection remained behind.

And like others have said, God is the supreme author. He sees all and knows what He is doing and is not bound to the law. We, on the other hand, are not omnipotent and are bound to the law.
 
I don’t know what the infant mortality rate was but obviously not all of them or most of them died.

Property is a person or rather a person isn’t property. So their idea of personhood is different from ours. Woman and Children are people rather than property in our society.

So they were either putting words into God’s mouth or they were justifying their morality by invoking God. Pretty much the same thing.
Ugh. I’m so glad I’m Catholic and not some sola scriptura protestant. There are just some horrific things in certain parts of the bible, and I am so glad our Catholic beliefs are different.
 
Ugh. I’m so glad I’m Catholic and not some sola scriptura protestant. There are just some horrific things in certain parts of the bible, and I am so glad our Catholic beliefs are different.
I don’t know who told you that Catholics are free to regard the biblical stories as being untrue or “horrific”, but whoever they were they were wrong. We are to interpret scripture in the literal sense of the words, and not go looking for alternative meanings when the author’s intent is as clear as day.
 
I don’t know who told you that Catholics are free to regard the biblical stories as being untrue or “horrific”, but whoever they were they were wrong. We are to interpret scripture in the literal sense of the words, and not go looking for alternative meanings when the author’s intent is as clear as day.
Even if you are technically correct, is it right to argue the case when it is possible that doing so might damage Debora’s faith? I’m not saying that her faith will be damaged, but she has explained her way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance evoked by the topic of this thread in a manner that permits her to maintain her faith. Isn’t it better to honor her perhaps fragile faith of today rather then embarking on an argument that risks destroying said faith?

I myself am keeping a certain train of thought to myself at least for the time being as I wrestle out how much risk of a future involving millstones I may have if I share said thoughts, even if not trying to act as a teacher.
 
I don’t know who told you that Catholics are free to regard the biblical stories as being untrue or “horrific”, but whoever they were they were wrong. We are to interpret scripture in the literal sense of the words, and not go looking for alternative meanings when the author’s intent is as clear as day.
Maybe it’s the Church 🤷
The senses of Scripture
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
  1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
  1. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
  1. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87
119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
 
We are to interpret scripture in the literal sense of the words, and not go looking for alternative meanings when the author’s intent is as clear as day.
That’s not true.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Scripture is to be read with an exegetical approach. We are not literalists,
 
Even if you are technically correct, is it right to argue the case when it is possible that doing so might damage Debora’s faith? I’m not saying that her faith will be damaged, but she has explained her way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance evoked by the topic of this thread in a manner that permits her to maintain her faith. Isn’t it better to honor her perhaps fragile faith of today rather then embarking on an argument that risks destroying said faith?

I myself am keeping a certain train of thought to myself at least for the time being as I wrestle out how much risk of a future involving millstones I may have if I share said thoughts, even if not trying to act as a teacher.
You make a very good point.
As I’ve been reading through this thread, I kept noticing how many people identify themselves as belonging to faith traditions other than Catholic, and then also how many who are marked as “Catholic” are taking cheap shots at each other rather than staying on the topic at hard. Makes me cringe . . . and I wonder what those who are not Catholic think about Catholics? That whole “they will know we are Christians by your love” kinda thing. . . .
 
**Not one of these again! :doh2: We come across these “biblical ethics” questions by Atheists and the like all the time.

Here is the distinction:

GOD is GOD. HE is the SOLE author of Human Life. HE alone has the exclusive rights to the life of any human being. If I use your analogy, I could say “why do people die, as it is GOD who recalls Human life as HE has determined a time for everyone to die”. This question touches upon the sovereign rights of GOD. GOD is the author and source of all human life. The fact that You are breathing right now is because HIS eternal decree allows You to. If HIS decree called for You to stop breathing in thenext minute, then that is what happens. GOD has the rights to recall the lives of anyone, at anytime. HE is GOD and the creator of all laws and life. What the commandments do not allow us to do is kill, because You and I do not have rights to the lives of others as we did not create that life, nor do we sustain it.

This is another arguement thrown out there by Atheists. However, all Atheists tend to use are moral arguements against the existence of GOD. Most arguement begin like “If GOD exists, why does HE allow war”. However GOD allowing things such as war are not contingencies on the arguement of HIS actual existence**.
The OP has a valid question. Believers like me question the violence and cruelty ordered by God in the OT.
 
The OP has a valid question. Believers like me question the violence and cruelty ordered by God in the OT.
Have you read the whole thread? I think posts #30 and #59 are particularly relevant to the OP’s question
 
BlueHorizon
**Actually even if Adam had not sinned he was still intrinsically subject to aging and death. Therefore God would not seem to be retracting a gift he never gave. **

This is incorrect. Humans were naturally immortal. That is why we will be resurrected on the last day.
Yes angels and souls are “immortal” (they will not perish).
But properly speaking “Immortal” appears to mean “without death” (ie without the separation of body and soul)? Adam clearly died, Jesus clearly died (no original sin), Mary clearly died (no original sin).

Can you find me an authoratative Catholic teaching that states Adam would not have aged/died had he not sinned? I do not believe one exists, though you will find many saying the opposite. It seems only in baptism by the Spirit are we truly born into eternal life - not by physical creation. Our bodies were created mortal, even Adam’s.

I am afraid you may not have read Genesis nor Aquinas nor the Catechism closely enough if you cannot accept my words.
 
I don’t know who told you that Catholics are free to regard the biblical stories as being untrue or “horrific”, but whoever they were they were wrong. We are to interpret scripture in the literal sense of the words, and not go looking for alternative meanings when the author’s intent is as clear as day.
Lol, I assure you that as a Catholic we are:
  1. Not sola scriptura
and
  1. Not required to read the OT in the literal sense, and allowed to think of those stories as symbolism and allegories.
 
Even if you are technically correct, is it right to argue the case when it is possible that doing so might damage Debora’s faith? I’m not saying that her faith will be damaged, but she has explained her way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance evoked by the topic of this thread in a manner that permits her to maintain her faith. Isn’t it better to honor her perhaps fragile faith of today rather then embarking on an argument that risks destroying said faith?

I myself am keeping a certain train of thought to myself at least for the time being as I wrestle out how much risk of a future involving millstones I may have if I share said thoughts, even if not trying to act as a teacher.
Yeah, I don’t have “fragile faith.” Please don’t say that about my faith.

And nothing I said would even insinuate I have fragile faith. I am NOT incorrect in saying that we are perfectly allowed to see some of the OT stories as allegories, and not literally word for word.
 
You make a very good point.
As I’ve been reading through this thread, I kept noticing how many people identify themselves as belonging to faith traditions other than Catholic, and then also how many who are marked as “Catholic” are taking cheap shots at each other rather than staying on the topic at hard. Makes me cringe . . . and I wonder what those who are not Catholic think about Catholics? That whole “they will know we are Christians by your love” kinda thing. . . .
I am not taking any “cheap shots.”

Please stop spreading untruths about what our Church teaches.

The Church teaches that we ARE indeed allowed to read the OT in an allegorical sense.
 
Yeah, I don’t have “fragile faith.” Please don’t say that about my faith.

And nothing I said would even insinuate I have fragile faith. I am NOT incorrect in saying that we are perfectly allowed to see some of the OT stories as allegories, and not literally word for word.
Wasn’t saying you did, just that the rest of us do not know whether you do. No offense intended.
 
For those of you saying that I have “fragile faith” and am taking “cheap shots” and am required to believe in the OT word for word:

From our apologist:
Catholics are free to understand the story of Jonah and the whale as literal history, or as didactic fiction.
In Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating states the following:
“The Catholic Church is silent on the proper interpretation of many biblical passages, readers being allowed to accept one of several understandings. Take, as an example, Jonah’s escapade at sea, which readers often find disturbing. Ronald Knox said “no defender of the sense of Scripture ever pretended, surely, that this was a natural event. If it happened, it was certainly a miracle; and not to my mind a more startling miracle than the raising of Lazarus, in which I take off the story of Jonah is the element of the grotesque which is present in it.” (Ronald Knox and Arnold Lunn, Difficulties (London: Eyre& Spottiswoode, 1951), 109.)
The most common interpretation nowadays, and one that is held by indubitably orthodox exegetes, is that the story of the prophet being swallowed and then disgorged by a “great fish” is merely didactic fiction, a grand tale told to establish a religious point. Catholics are perfectly free to take this or a more literal view…”
Link - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=14313

And also this other post by our apologist which is too long to post here, see this link (includes the passages from the CCC): forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=22128&highlight=old+testament+fiction

From the Vatican site: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

The Catechism: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_PQ.HTM

The Church teaches that we are free to believe the old testament stories are NOT historical fact exactly as they are written. They can be taken as truths in an allegorical sense.
 
Yes angels and souls are “immortal” (they will not perish).
But properly speaking “Immortal” appears to mean “without death” (ie without the separation of body and soul)? Adam clearly died, Jesus clearly died (no original sin), Mary clearly died (no original sin).

Can you find me an authoratative Catholic teaching that states Adam would not have aged/died had he not sinned? I do not believe one exists, though you will find many saying the opposite. It seems only in baptism by the Spirit are we truly born into eternal life - not by physical creation. Our bodies were created mortal, even Adam’s.

I am afraid you may not have read Genesis nor Aquinas nor the Catechism closely enough if you cannot accept my words.
Catechism #400
 
Catechism #400
DC I realise you prob think this point is so obvious that it is beneath you to do more than a one word hit and run job - but I invite you to actually go into the matter and discuss openly. It is not as black and white as you may think.

You have quoted CCC 400: (Concerning original Sin)
“… Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, [285] for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.”

This statement does not actually contradict the ancient Catholic belief of the Fathers that Adam naturally aged even in the Garden and in time also would, without intervention by God, have died. Possibly something akin to the Dormition of the Virigin.

The reason why you may think this indirect passgae from the CCC makes the opposite point is possibly due to mistaken logic. Death of the body as a consequence of disobedience to God (the original sin) is not the same thing as immortality of the body due to non-disobedience to God.

What you may have forgotten to consider is the external gift of immmortality symbolised by the Tree of Life. This, according to the Fathers and Aquinas, was what would have enabled Adam to counter the internal,natural, constitutional mortality of his body present even in innocence.

Note two very important things re the TOL in Genesis:
(1) God commanded Adam not to eat of it even before he sinned. Thus God effectively subjected Adam, even in first innocence, to eventual death. That is God’s right by law and by nature. God never gave Adam an “irreversible gift” of bodily life by making him naturally, intrinsically (and hence irreversibly) immortal.
However it is clear that God may well have been preparing Adam to be allowed to eat of the TOL if he proved himself obedient and responsible. Thus Adam could have attained effective, extrinsic bodily immortality when God dropped his arbitrary ban on eating regularly of that TOL as a remedy against Adam’s intrinsic (but slow) mortality. But such immortality from the TOL would clearly be due to ongoing and arbitrary generosity of God - it was never Adam’s intrinsic right.

(2) Adam disobeyed God and was driven from Eden. Barred from Eden (and the TOL) the immutable law of death was imposed on Adam and his offspring when he was removed from Eden. So eventual death, which was not God’s original plan for Adam (had he stayed in Eden), inevitably followed. In addition, human bodily nature (always essentially mortal) became more distant from the soul - making death/corruption much more powerful in the body than was the case in Eden (even without the TOL). It is interesting that in the Old Testament we see the first men as very vital (living hundreds of years) and with time and further sin man is seen as living shorter and shorter lives. De-evolution. Adam (before sinning)even in his natural mortality, and without eating of the TOL, would have lived a very very long time.

If you go into this matter more deeply than you have I believe you will discover that the above is the general consensus of the Church Fathers.

Therefore bodily life in this world is not a human right before God. And He is not unjust if he arbitrarily decides not to extend it or even decides to take it back. Its like the story of the day workers in the market place. Is the Landowner unjust if he freely decides to overpay some and not others?

Whether God ever truly gave a direct command to his Chosen People to kill others to get their way…I have my doubts. Or it may be a case similar to Moses and divorce, it was never meant to be thus but was necessary due to the hardness of hearts.
 
DC I realise you prob think this point is so obvious that it is beneath you to do more than a one word hit and run job - but I invite you to actually go into the matter and discuss openly. It is not as black and white as you may think.

You have quoted CCC 400: (Concerning original Sin)
“… Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, [285] for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.”

This statement does not actually contradict the ancient Catholic belief of the Fathers that Adam naturally aged even in the Garden and in time also would, without intervention by God, have died. Possibly something akin to the Dormition of the Virigin.

The reason why you may think this indirect passgae from the CCC makes the opposite point is possibly due to mistaken logic. Death of the body as a consequence of disobedience to God (the original sin) is not the same thing as immortality of the body due to non-disobedience to God.

What you may have forgotten to consider is the external gift of immmortality symbolised by the Tree of Life. This, according to the Fathers and Aquinas, was what would have enabled Adam to counter the internal,natural, constitutional mortality of his body present even in innocence.

Note two very important things re the TOL in Genesis:
(1) God commanded Adam not to eat of it even before he sinned. Thus God effectively subjected Adam, even in first innocence, to eventual death. That is God’s right by law and by nature. God never gave Adam an “irreversible gift” of bodily life by making him naturally immortal.
However it is clear that God may well have been preparing Adam to be allowed to eat of the TOL if he proved himself obedient and responsible. Thus Adam could have attained effective, extrinsic bodily immortality when God dropped his arbitrary ban on eating regularly of that TOL as a remedy against Adam’s intrinsic (but slow) mortality. But such immortality is clearly due to the arbitrary generosity of God - it was never Adam’s intrinsic right.
(2) Adam disobeyed God and was driven from Eden. Barred from Eden (and the TOL) the immutable law of death was imposed on Adam and his offspring when he was removed from Eden. So eventual death, which was not God’s original plan for Adam (had he stayed in Eden), inevitably followed. In addition, human bodily nature (always essentially mortal)
became more distant from the soul - making death/corruption much more powerful in the body than was the case in Eden (even without the TOL). it is interesting that in the Old Testament we see man as very vital (living hundreds of years) and with time and further sin man is seen as living shorter and shorter lives. De-evolution. Adam (before sinning)even in his natural mortality, and without eating of the TOL, would have lived a very very long time.

If you go into this matter more deeply than you have I believe you will discover that the above is the general consensus of the Church Fathers.

Therefore bodily life in this world is not a human right and God is not unjust if he arbitrarily decides not to extend it or even decides to take it back. it s like the story of the day workers in the market place. Is the Landowner unjust if he freely decides to overpay some and not others?
Writing a long post and making false claims about what the Church fathers taught does not make one right. The Church’s teaching is quite clear.
 
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