How can God be against abortion when he ordered the deaths of Amalekite infants/children?

[sw85]

How can you be against your 12-year-old daughter having sex when you slept with your wife last night?

Ahh, because some actions are appropriate to certain times and places and circumstances and even people, and the same actions inappropriate with respect to other times and places and circumstances and people.

 

[openmind77]

… It wasn’t a massacre - it was a forcible eviction. The wrongful inhabitants had 200+ years notice to prepare to leave . . …

The Old Testament has plenty of massacres that God supposedly ordered or sanctioned. He supposedly killed 70000 merely because somebody conducted a census.

I don’t believe any of these stories. The killings and massacres undoubtedly happened, but they were conducted by humans who wanted to justify their atrocities by saying that God sanctioned them.

Such a violent, merciless God is incompatible with the loving God that Jesus preached. These stories blaming God are completely untrue

 

[JamesATyler]

God is capable of worse than murder. He can in fact destroy the soul and the body. From my studies, I believe he also has the right to do so. But, I don’t believe that it is God’s work that we are witnessing when we see all the abortions and murdering taking place. That would be similar to the kind of twisted thinking that have men flying planes into buildings and blowing up random people in the streets.

 

[JamesATyler]

The vengeful, angry, violent God of the Old Testament is totally incompatible with the loving, forgiving, merciful God that Jesus described. (I understand it takes a genius to maintain two contradictory ideas in your head, so we must have a lot of geniuses around here).

If the will of the Father and the will of Son are the same, than according to you, Jesus must have agreed with ordering the massacres in the Old Testament (if you believe the Old Testament stories). If you think, Jesus could have ordered massacres of anybody (let alone women and children), I am afraid you don’t even begin to understand the message of Jesus and that of the New Testament.

I hate to break it to you but the God Jesus was talking about is the same God that can destroy body and soul in hell fire. Scripture leads us to believe that he will do this.

 

[JamesATyler]

The Old Testament has plenty of massacres that God supposedly ordered or sanctioned. He supposedly killed 70000 merely because somebody conducted a census.

I don’t believe any of these stories. The killings and massacres undoubtedly happened, but they were conducted by humans who wanted to justify their atrocities by saying that God sanctioned them.

Such a violent, merciless God is incompatible with the loving God that Jesus preached. These stories blaming God are completely untrue

I don’t think you understand Jesus. God will do more than destroy bodies. He destroys souls. His wrath is real too. God can be merciless if he chooses to be. Jesus says those who are merciful will receive mercy.

 

[openmind77]

I hate to break it to you but the God Jesus was talking about is the same God that can destroy body and soul in hell fire. Scripture leads us to believe that he will do this.

I don’t think you understand Jesus. God will do more than destroy bodies. He destroys souls. His wrath is real too. God can be merciless if he chooses to be. Jesus says those who are merciful will receive mercy.

I definitely don’t believe in a literal hell (with fire and brimstone etc). God does not destroy any souls either. He is never merciless - such is not the God that Jesus described. Hell is someplace that we send ourselves, God does not send us there. (However I don’t believe in eternal Hell either - but that is definitely off-topic - lets just stick to the deaths God is being accused of ordering).

The God that Jesus described and preached is infinitely loving, infinitely merciful and infinitely kind - there is absolutely no way that he ordered any massacres of anybody, least of all of women and children (we can assume the children were merciful per your requirement). These are just stories told by humans to justify their own evil acts - they claim God ordered them to commit these atrocities.when they committed them on their own. Also God is never wrathful, angry or vengeful.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I’m confused. God is sovereign, but it’s not possible that he’s still acting through people? How can you justify that categorical pronouncement?

You can’t equate the circumstances and selfish thoughts and feelings that lead a woman to commit an abortion to a divine decree. If you take on that logic then you can justify any action. The decrees of the Lord are abundantly clear. He decreed that the Israelites destroy the Emalakites because God, seeing all things, saw that it was time for them to go, and ordained their destruction by the hand of the Israelites. Now, God has decreed that we are not to harm an innocent human being. We must follow this decree or be judged by God.

 

[JamesATyler]

I definitely don’t believe in a literal hell (with fire and brimstone etc). God does not destroy any souls either. He is never merciless - such is not the God that Jesus described. Hell is someplace that we send ourselves, God does not send us there. (However I don’t believe in eternal Hell either - but that is definitely off-topic - lets just stick to the deaths God is being accused of ordering).

The God that Jesus described and preached is infinitely loving, infinitely merciful and infinitely kind - there is absolutely no way that he ordered any massacres of anybody, least of all of women and children (we can assume the children were merciful per your requirement). These are just stories told by humans to justify their own evil acts - they claim God ordered them to commit these atrocities.when they committed them on their own. Also God is never wrathful, angry or vengeful.

Matthew, Chapter 10:verse 28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Matthew, Chapter 25: verse 41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew, Chapter 13:verses 24-30
He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

-The Word of the Lord

If God proposes damnation then it is not out of the question that he can also kill a man.

 

[devoutchristian]

Matthew, Chapter 10:verse 28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Matthew, Chapter 25: verse 41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew, Chapter 13:verses 24-30
He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

-The Word of the Lord

If God proposes damnation then it is not out of the question that he can also kill a man.

You should be more precise. You could easily be interpreted as a Calvinist.

 

[JamesATyler]

You should be more precise. You could easily be interpreted as a Calvinist.

Which verse sounds Calvinist to you?

 

[devoutchristian]

Which verse sounds Calvinist to you?

None of them. Your tone however, could lead one to believe that you’re claiming that God actively damns the damned. I don’t interpret you that way, but someone might.

 

[openmind77]

Matthew, Chapter 10:verse 28…
…If God proposes damnation then it is not out of the question that he can also kill a man.

Like I said, lets leave Hell and damnation to another thread. (In any case this fate is not for innocent children who were included in the killings)

The God described in the New Testament does not order any massacres - these are acts of men who just justify their evil by claiming so.

God of the New Testament is loving,merciful and forgiving.

 

[JamesATyler]

Like I said, lets leave Hell and damnation to another thread.

The God described in the New Testament does not order any massacres - these are acts of men who just justify their evil by claiming so.

God of the New Testament is loving,merciful and forgiving.

That acts of Jesus in the New Testament begin a new covenant that is accessible to every person. The preceding covenant God had with Abraham was to create a great nation out of Abraham. He did do this. The Old Testament tells us the story of how.

Genesis, Chapter 12:verses 1-3
The LORD said to Abram: "Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father’s house to a land that I will show you.“I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the communities of the earth shall find blessing in you.”

 

[Cat_Herder]

1
Not only does God command the deaths of children and infants, he also makes no distinction between pregnant and non-pregnant women. By implication, obeying this command would have required the Hebrews to commit many abortions.

We, the United States of America, committed many abortions when we did what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Was it justified? Care to try to answer either way?

If it wasn’t (and I don’t think it was), then what do you suppose might be different about the Amalekites that would justify the ancient equivalent of the bomb?

 

[JamesATyler]

Like I said, lets leave Hell and damnation to another thread. (In any case this fate is not for innocent children who were included in the killings)

The God described in the New Testament does not order any massacres - these are acts of men who just justify their evil by claiming so.

God of the New Testament is loving,merciful and forgiving.

Matthew, Chapter 7:verses 13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

The God of the Old and New Testament are one in the same. The one who made a promise to Abraham and the one who promises eternal life through Jesus are the same.

Matthew 23:34-39
Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

[JamesATyler]

1 Samuel 15:2-3

2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”​

Not only does God command the deaths of children and infants, he also makes no distinction between pregnant and non-pregnant women. By implication, obeying this command would have required the Hebrews to commit many abortions.

One defense I’ve often heard to the accusation that this was immoral of God is that God knew that when the Amalekite children grew up, they would try to exact vengeance against the Hebrews. Therefore they were part of the Amalekite evil that God was trying to destroy. But by this logic, one could argue that God might be working through couples choosing abortion to similarly arrange the future in accord with his will.

You could take any of history’s tyrants, for example, and argue that avoiding their evil could have been God’s will, and thus that aborting them would have been God working through the couple who chose the abortion and the doctor who performed it.

So if you believe that God prohibits abortion, how can you reconcile that with God’s actions in the Bible? There seems to be two alternatives: either God is guilty of murder because he commanded abortion, or abortion is not always murder because it might be the will of God.

Not only did he kill the women, children, and unborn, he also killed the camels and the donkeys. What do you make of that? It’s true. He killed the men, women, infants, children, unborn, and animals. Everything was killed. The wrath of God is a real thing and that’s one demonstration of it.

 

[openmind77]

…The God of the Old and New Testament are one in the same. The one who made a promise to Abraham and the one who promises eternal life through Jesus are the same…

I did not say they were different Gods. I said the Old Testament is full of half-truths and lots of other strange, weird stuff too. If you claim that OT is all true, then you also have to accept all the weird stuff too.

The OT writers are just telling stories about God which are not true to justify their own actions. It is the same God as the New Testament and he is loving, merciful, forgiving and does not order massacres.

 

[Suslar]

We, the United States of America, committed many abortions when we did what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

HUH? Dropping the bombs did not surgically remove a child from its mother’s womb so no abortion occurred.

 

[Suslar]

Openmind77, again, I simply don’t understand how you can be so sure and certain of the nature of God, but you are not Christian? You have made claims such as “I’m sure . . .” and “there is absolutely no way . . . “ in describing what God can and cannot do and what God is or is not. Perhaps you have divinely infused knowledge about the nature of God that far exceeds what mortal man can comprehend?

You of course are welcome to have your opinions about God, Scripture, Christians, etc. But the Catholic Church teaches that ALL of Sacred Scripture is True. (As noted earlier, that is not the same as factual). We Catholics read it with an exegetical approach – knowing the human authors belonged to a different culture, with different ideas of the world and of human behavior. The Truth we seek is in the bigger picture and pertains to the larger questions of life and its meaning. We’d need to ask, “What’s the moral of this story?” and “What would this text have meant to the writer and his contemporaries?” As already noted, the point of this story was Saul’s disobedience – not some justification for abortion.

The differentiator between Truth and fact is that facts pertain to the measurable and observable. Please note that when the Lord said, “Go, now, attack Amalek, and put under the ban everything he has. . . “ in verse 3, he gave the Amalekites ample time to flee (v 6), and nowhere in the rest of the chapter does it explicitly say that infants and children were actually killed. Perhaps they did all leave after the warning? We can be confident that at least some Amalekites left and the entire culture was not destroyed because they resurface to fight again later.

Verse 4 says, there were “two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men of Judah.” Seriously? Who the heck counted? What if there were only 198,653 foot soldiers and 8,429 men of Judah? Does that make the story false? No, not to Catholics. Because the deeper message – the Truth of the story – is about God’s plan for Israel in Salvation History. The story is True but we don’t know if it is historically, factually correct. However, an event described in Scripture that reveals the place of God in life is no less dependable because it includes inaccurate scientific or historical elements. Scripture is inerrant – 100% True. We do not read the words of the Bible literally without context – we read exegetically.

 

[Beryllos]

Not only did he kill the women, children, and unborn, he also killed the camels and the donkeys. What do you make of that? It’s true. He killed the men, women, infants, children, unborn, and animals. Everything was killed. The wrath of God is a real thing and that’s one demonstration of it.

Perhaps you should read 1 Samuel 15 more closely. The Lord did not kill everything. The Lord commanded Saul to do so, and Saul did not do it.