How can I be a Christian and not a "catholic"

[Shibboleth]

Katholikos:

Sixteen centuries of Christianity separate these two definitions. St. Paul’s letters are full of admonitions to maintain unity. Christ’s prayer was “that all may be one” (John 17). When St. Ignatius of Antioch, was being taken to the Coliseum under Roman guard to be thrown to the lions for his Faith in 107 AD, he wrote to the Smyrnaeans: “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” He considered only those “within the sanctuary,” obedient to the bishop as to the Apostles, sharing the same Eucharist, to be “the Catholic Church.”

To the Trallians, Ignatius wrote: ". . .cling inseparably to God Jesus Christ, to the bishop, and to the precepts of the Apostles…do nothing without your bishop, but be subject also to the presbytery (priests). To the Ephesians, he wrote: “Let no one deceive himself: unless a man is within the sanctuary [the Church], he has to go with the Bread of God [the Eucharist]. . . one should look upon the bishop as upon the Lord Himself.” He urges, “continue in your flawless unity, that you may at all times have a share in God.” Ignatius wrote to Polycarp, Catholic bishop of Smyrna, “Be concerned about unity, the greatest blessing.”

The Apostles and their disciples meant one thing when they spoke of the Catholic Church, and Protestants mean quite another. A new definition of ‘church’ and of “catholic” was invented in the 16th century to accommodate the myriad of conflicting and competing ecclesiastical communities that developed, based on the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura.”

Christ founded only one Church. He called it simply “the Church” or “My Church.” It was unique and needed no other name. The Apostles and/or their disciples called it “Catholic” to distinguish it from the heresies that had begun to develop by the time the NT was written. There were those inside the Catholic Church – the orthodox (right) believers – and the heretics outside.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. She is the nomination from which all other ecclesiastical communities calling themselves “churches” ultimately denominated.

JMJ Jay

There are a few things going on here. First you see the catholic church as not one in unity. I do, as I stated above. This is simply something that you and I will never see eye to eye one because if you conceded to be you would cease being Catholic and if I conceded to you I would cease being Lutheran. Either way though we would both continue to be catholic, because we are not separated, we are part of the Church and My Church.

Second you are using ‘nomination’ and ‘denomination’ incorrectly. Because of the etymological use of the word in Christianity, nomination would mean - The act or an instance of submitting a name for candidacy or appointment. Denomination would be conclusion of doing this it would be – “the act of giving a name to; designate.”

I would guess that the Catholic Church is not summiting its name for candidacy. In the strictest sense it has been given a name by an office of authority and it has a governing body therefor it is a denomination.

If the Catholic Church does not want to refer to it as such I will respect that stance.

denominate
Latin denominare - ‘de-’ + nominare – this means ‘to name.’

When people see the suffix de- in the word they assume that it stands for the more common contemporary use… it does not.

 

[PastorVW]

Stephen-Maguire:

The difference in the Catholic Church is we believe in Transubstantiation, we believe that at the moment of Consecration that the Bread & Wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus.
So Catholics are in full Communion with Jesus by actually receiving Jesus, as Communion is Spiritual food for our souls.
Other Churches reduce this to a mere meal, so therefore although they are Christian ( followers of Christ ) they aren’t in full Communion.
So in that light they are seperated, from full union with Christ.

By way of clarification, I don’t think that few Protestant Church would consider the Lord’s Supper a “mere meal”. As a Free Methodist Pastor who graduated from a Baptist College I am familiar with both views.

Baptists would generally consider the Lord Supper as symbolic. However, calling it a “mere meal” is like calling a national flag a mere piece of cloth. Symbols are real and powerful things.

Many others (including my own denomination) hold a much higher view. We believe in what we would call a real presence – and consider it to be a sacrament.

• From the Free Methodist Articles of Religion:*
  
  *The Lord’s Supper is a **sacrament **of our redemption by Christ’s death. To those who rightly, worthily, and with faith receive it, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ; and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ. The supper is also a sign of the love and unity that Christians have among themselves. *
  
  Christ, according to His promise, is really present in the sacrament. But His body is given, taken, and eaten only after a heavenly and spiritual manner. No change is effected in the element; the bread and wine are not literally the body and blood of Christ. Nor is the body and blood of Christ literally present with the elements. The elements are never to be considered objects of worship. The body of Christ is received and eaten in faith.

Although we do disagree, I think that it is important to understand what other Christians believe and why they believe it. That is why I spend time here on these boards, and why I listen to the radio program. I hope, that in some small way, I may also help Catholics to understand what evangelicals believe.

 Blessings,

Vince

 

[JGC]

mark a:

This is a real question, so try not to laugh too hard-

Do most Protestants consider Catholics to be part of the same one holy, catholic, and apostolic church? My impression from many Protestants I know and from some on this forum is a resounding “NO”.

The C of S is a presbyterian Church

Faith and Spirituality in the Church of Scotland
OUR BELIEFS
God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
The Church of Scotland believes in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and proclaims Jesus Christ crucified, risen and glorified.

Our standards of belief are to be found in the Old and New Testament (the Bible) and in the Church’s historic Confession of Faith. For a brief summary of our beliefs, it is useful to look at the Apostles’ Creed, which is used by many churches in declaring Christian faith:

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell.

"The third day he rose again from the dead, he ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
“I believe in
the Holy Ghost;
the Holy Catholic Church;
the Communion of Saints;
the Forgiveness of Sins;
the Resurrection of the Body;
and the Life Everlasting.”
Amen.
The Love of God
The God we believe in showed his love for the world in Jesus Christ, and his concern that all should value and treat each other with justice, regardless of status or influence.

We also believe that God does not wield power from a distance or make inflexible rules, but moves amongst people as a spirit, challenging pride and violence, offering strength, comfort and peace.
Christians, as followers of Jesus Church, respond to the generosity and love of God by giving thanks in worship and on behalf of the whole world. They do this by singing praise, seeking to know God better and sharing in the struggles of the world through prayer.
congregation in worship
Congregations of all ages give thanks to God through worship

People who are baptised become members of Christ’s ‘body’, the Church, following the pattern of his life in acts of service and sacrifice and by what they say and do, inviting others to share the new life he offers both to individuals and communities.
churchofscotland.org.uk/spirituality/spiritbeliefs.htm
[top of page][home]

 

[Katholikos]

Shibboleth:

There are a few things going on here. First you see the catholic church as not one in unity. I do, as I stated above. This is simply something that you and I will never see eye to eye one because if you conceded to be you would cease being Catholic and if I conceded to you I would cease being Lutheran. Either way though we would both continue to be catholic, because we are not separated, we are part of the Church and My Church.

You see the first century Catholic Church as lumped with all the thousands of conflicting and competing churches formed in or after the 16th century, each of them equally “catholic.” I see it this way:

CCC 838 The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Ignatius certainty didn’t have the myriad of Lutherans and other denominations in mind when he called the Church “Catholic” (Katholikos, universal) and urged its members to maintain unity. As I said, your definition was developed in the 16th century to accommodate the growing number of competing and doctrinally conflicting churches.

Second you are using ‘nomination’ and ‘denomination’ incorrectly. Because of the etymological use of the word in Christianity, nomination would mean - The act or an instance of submitting a name for candidacy or appointment. Denomination would be conclusion of doing this it would be – “the act of giving a name to; designate.”

Thanks for the etymology lesson. I wasn’t trying to be etymologically correct, but to emphasize that the original Church was One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic as distinguished from those that shattered her unity in the 16th century and subsequently. The Church is not one among many denominations, but the Mother Church all Christendom.

I would guess that the Catholic Church is not summiting its name for candidacy. In the strictest sense it has been given a name by an office of authority and it has a governing body therefor it is a denomination.

If the Catholic Church does not want to refer to it as such I will respect that stance.

denominate
Latin denominare - ‘de-’ + nominare – this means ‘to name.’

When people see the suffix de- in the word they assume that it stands for the more common contemporary use… it does not.

According to Webster, “de” means from. The denominations separated and gave themselves a new nomination (name) to distinguish themselves from their parent organization, which ultimately was the Catholic Church.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[PastorVW]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question. I hope we can keep this discussion going.

I do want to share a couple relivant of family expereinces…

The first is that of my favorite Aunt who found a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ in the Catholic church. She passed away a few years ago and spent her final days in a Catholic nursing home. (The best I have ever seen - and coming from a former paramedic, that is high praise.)

I got to know one of the nuns who was assigned to pastoral care. One day my Catholic cousin said about me, “He’s OK, even if he is another religion”.

My new friend replied at once: “He is not of a different religion, we serve the same Lord.”

I will never forget that.

The second incident involves another aunt who was not open to the things of God until she was near death. An evangelical Catholic Priest spent many hours with her. At her funeral he made it very clear that, “We know she is heaven with Christ, because she trusted Him as her Lord and Savior.” (A statement I was very surprised to hear from a Catholic Priest!)

I believe that we do serve the same Lord - and I thank the Lord for the work He has done in my Family through my Catholic Brothers and Sisters!

Blessings,

Vince

 

[Katholikos]

The second incident involves another aunt who was not open to the things of God until she was near death. An evangelical Catholic Priest spent many hours with her. At her funeral he made it very clear that, “We know she is heaven with Christ, because she trusted Him as her Lord and Savior.” (A statement I was very surprised to hear from a Catholic Priest!)

What is an “evangelical Catholic priest”?

That’s a sweet sentiment, but if this was a priest of the Catholic Church, he should not have made that statement. He could not have known the condition of your aunt’s soul at the moment of her death. The CC does not presume to know who is in heaven or who is in hell – except the saints. Only God knows. The priest should have said that your aunt trusted Christ as her Lord and Savior and left her destiny out of it. Those words may have brought comfort to her family, but they may have raised a false expectation – and it’s bad theology. No one has a certainty of heaven until they have been judged by God.

Mt 7:21 RSV, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Even if she were “saved,” her soul would [probably] have to be purified before she could stand before the Divine Presence in heaven. There is a penalty for all sin – forgiveness eradicates the guilt, but not the penalty. Nobody skates.

But – did the priest baptize your aunt on her death bed? That would wash away all her sins.

If not, one could only say she had a *hope *of heaven.

Jay

 

[Shibboleth]

Did some more research

Nominare - means “to name”

Denominate means to name completely

Mid-16th century. From Latin denominat- , the past participle stem of denominare , literally “to name completely,” from nominare “to name.”

Ironically the de- in the word is little more than denominative or denominal in purpose.

Ugggggg…

 

[Katholikos]

Shibboleth:

Did some more research

Nominare - means “to name”

Denominate means to name completely

Mid-16th century. From Latin denominat- , the past participle stem of denominare , literally “to name completely,” from nominare “to name.”

Ironically the de- in the word is little more than denominative or denominal in purpose.

Ugggggg…

Thanks for the research! It’s appreciated! :whacky: Jay

 

[UnknownCloud]

PastorWV:

I appreciate your gentleness in this matter toward Catholics - I pray more evangelicals were as ‘ecumenically minded’ as you.

However, I would respond to you in this way.

Why aren’t you Catholic? Is it because of its complex, sometimes scandalous history (like the History of God’s People as told in the Bible)? Is it because of its Magisterial Authority? (promised by and executed by people in the Bible). Is it because some Catholics are weird and liberal (it happens)? Is it because the Pope and Bishops dress funny? (I wonder if Jesus even cares at all about such things).

Most evangelicals that I dialog with actually reject catholic culture rather than its actual theology/teaching (aside from obvious doctrines like the authority of the Magisterium). What I mean by catholic culture is our typical conservative, ritualistic approach to worship and prayer (the smells and bells and ‘pomp’). I’ve even met people that didn’t want to become Catholic simply because ‘it’s too big of a Church’ or ‘the music doesn’t do anything for me’.

I would be interested to know what it is that’s actually preventing you from fully embracing the Church.

I don’t find the thought of ‘well, we all basically believe the same thing’ to be very submissive to God’s Will. Even though your life has been changed, that doesn’t mean it cannot change even more…don’t limit your access to grace dear friend. Jesus prayed for us to be one as He and the Father are One…that’s impressive and astonishing…impossible without God. Only we can make it happen God Willing.

Peace brother.

 

[mark_a]

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

JGC:

…the Communion of Saints;…

Just curious, does the C of S believe the Communion of Saints includes also Saints whose Earthly life has ended and live on in heaven?

 

[StubbleSpark]

Frankly, I do understand how Christ can both be “really present” but the bread and wine are still not considered to literally be His Body and Blood. “Real Presence” is a qualitative difference – it means you can touch God with your hand (or mouth). It is not the same as omnipresence or the special presence when two or more believers speak His name. Both of these are real, but qualitatively different from what we as Catholics believe in.

How is the Lord’s Supper much different from other symbolic practices like the communion in other Protestant denominations? If you say all Christians fall under some warm fuzzy cloud of “catholic” you are the one doing a disservice to the sacrament by saying what Christians believe of it does not matter.

This is indicative of Protestant “superstition” (here the word is being used as GK Chesterton would use it). Luther claimed the Bible to be the SOLE authority (Catholics already believed in its SUPREME authority) and then changed the Bible, removing eleven books (don’t argue, just go to the other threads, please). Does this look like an elevation of the Bible’s status and authority?

The action (removing the books) and the teachings (Sola Scriptura) do not match. How can such actions possibly be an afffirmation of that teaching? The truth is, they belie everything he stands for as a Christian, Protestant or Catholic. Imagine someone trying to do the same thing today (like the Mormons, who say the NT is “corrupted” by Rome) – are they then still considered “Christian”? Such a person would be run straight out of any church as a liar and instigator!

And what if that person cried outside the church walls – Hey, stop judging me! But still refused to give up his heretical ideas?

While we can agree with what this person did NOT change, we would still take serious issue with what he DID change. And this is exactly where Catholics and Protestants are today. We say they are wrong in their interpretation and they struggle for a sense of legitimacy by demonizing the very Church that gave them their precious (though now heavily edited) Bible.

These are not trivial differences. Keep in mind that every heresy is a NOT. Heretics are a bunch of negative nellies: Christ cannot be God AND man! God cannot be one AND three. Authority cannot come from Scriptures AND the Majesterium. Justification is not by works AND faith. You cannot pray to Jesus AND Mary.

Sentimentality, no matter how well-intentioned, can only go so far before we realize that we cannot compromise TRUTH (God) to keep from offending those who do not hold to that TRUTH.

 

[UnknownCloud]

Great post StubbleSpark…it had all the challenging drama of Jesus’ parables.
It reminds me of a saying, ‘I have not come to bring peace but a sword’.

Jesus doesn’t want us to compromise the Truth…but He does want us to be loving anyway. Sometimes, nothing is more loving than to state the real deal…like the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Katholikos]

StubbleSpark:

¡Bien hecho! (Well done.)

:tiphat: Jay