How can i be happy in heaven knowing my beloved brother is suffering forever in hell?

[NeedImprovement]

Reiterating what Trishie said in post # 14, God can save in an instant, and in the very last instant of life.

It might be worth repeating once more a popular incident involving the Curé of Ars ; concrete examples tend to augment our belief. The story can be found in numerous locations, but I got this particular version from this homily :

"The tiniest gesture of faith can save a person. A man who embraces a crucifix on his deathbed can gain the kingdom of God. Once a woman told St. John Vianney that she was devastated because her husband had committed suicide. In a moment of mystical insight that only a great saint can receive, John Vianney exclaimed, “He is saved!” The woman was incredulous so the saint repeated, stressing each word, “I tell you he is saved. He is in Purgatory, and you must pray for him. Between the parapet of the bridge and the water he had time to make an act of contrition.”

 

[LittleSoldier]

Reiterating what Trishie said in post # 14, God can save in an instant, and in the very last instant of life.

It might be worth repeating once more a popular incident involving the Curé of Ars ; concrete examples tend to augment our belief. The story can be found in numerous locations, but I got this particular version from this homily :

"The tiniest gesture of faith can save a person. A man who embraces a crucifix on his deathbed can gain the kingdom of God. Once a woman told St. John Vianney that she was devastated because her husband had committed suicide. In a moment of mystical insight that only a great saint can receive, John Vianney exclaimed, “He is saved!” The woman was incredulous so the saint repeated, stressing each word, “I tell you he is saved. He is in Purgatory, and you must pray for him. Between the parapet of the bridge and the water he had time to make an act of contrition.”

Thank you. This brought tears to my eyes as I have been suffering for almost thirty years over a similar act. You can’t know what reading the words from the homily have done for me.

God bless you!!

 

[Third_Day]

If I “make it” in through the narrow gate, I am promised eternal joy. But how can I be happy if my brother does not make it and is suffering abominable torments forever?

At the last judgment men’s secrets will be revealed.
.
Romans 2:16 “on that day God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ”

If someone that we love is sent to hell it will be revealed to us why that sentence is justified… When their sin is revealed we will understand the justice of God. It is because of that justice that we wil accept their fate and will feel no pain.

If someone commits a mortal sin but is ignorant of that fact they will not be subject to eternal damnation. A merciful God has given us a state of purification where those not yet sanctified must go. We see that clearly in scripture.

Luke 12:47-48 “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not make ready or act according to his will shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know and did what deserved a beating shall receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much is given much will be required.”

1 Tim 1:13 “Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief.”

WHen Mary appeared to the children at Fatima she was asked by the children about the fate of two of their friends. They were told that one was in heaven the other in purgatory and would remain there until the end of time. It would be reasonable to assume that this young person had committed a mortal sin that was not punishable by hell due to ignorance and it would take until the end of the world for their sanctification.

No matter how someone’s life indicates that they could be in hell we must always ask God for His mercy and offer up our prayers and sufferings for their soul. They could have made a perfect confession in their last moment.

 

[dailey]

Read “The Great Divorce” by C. S. Lewis (a short and easy story). If someone is in hell, they don’t WANT to be in Heaven. We would have to drag them, kicking and screaming, into Heaven and then they would constantly be looking for a way to escape.

We tend to talk of God sending people to hell, in actuality people refuse Heaven.

I have never understood that whole idea that people choose hell for themselves? What about the story (Lazerus, i believe?) of the poor and rich man. The rich man ends up in hell and begs for relief. It definitely sounded like he would have gladly went up to heaven, if given the choice?

 

[Third_Day]

I have never understood that whole idea that people choose hell for themselves? What about the story (Lazerus, i believe?) of the poor and rich man. The rich man ends up in hell and begs for relief. It definitely sounded like he would have gladly went up to heaven, if given the choice?

Perhaps the rich man is in purgatory. That verse has never been dogmatically interpreted as hell.

 

[beehumble]

Because if the OP is actually grieving the loss of his/her brother (not sure) then I think your words were harsh and unproductive. The poster was asking a philosophical question about the nature of Heaven and you basically came back with, “If your brother is burning in Hell forever he obviously deserves it.” I think that was unkind and very insensitive.

I sincerely appreciate the charity but fear not - I have two beloved brothers and I am happy to report that both are full of life! I have pondered this question though and I am sure there’s an answer but I have not discerned it. The question could be changed to be ‘beloved mother/father/sister/friend etc’ - the word beloved is important here too, since it seems a cherished friend would be missed. We all have faults, meaning we all have dear friends with faults, so it is possible a close one might not make it to the other side while we do, and yet we are promised eternal happiness but it seems we would miss that dear friend/family member a lot. But then again, that is an object of ‘self’ and love of ‘self’ gets purged, but still I wonder…also I know God’s love is very powerful and quite overwhelming, as Maria Vallago-Najera’s testimony demonstrates:

medjugorje.net/content/view/118/84/

 

[LilyM]

I have never understood that whole idea that people choose hell for themselves? What about the story (Lazerus, i believe?) of the poor and rich man. The rich man ends up in hell and begs for relief. It definitely sounded like he would have gladly went up to heaven, if given the choice?

Put it this way - they choose their sin, and in choosing that choose hell which is its consequence.

Like someone who gets involved in drugs doesn’t directly choose all the horible things that go with it - the damage to health and relationships, the crime that often goes with it etc - but in choosing drugs they choose the whole kit n caboodle, consequences and all - and so if caught by the police for theft won’t be let off because ‘the drugs made me do it’, but will be punished for their crime.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I sincerely appreciate the charity but fear not - I have two beloved brothers and I am happy to report that both are full of life! I have pondered this question though and I am sure there’s an answer but I have not discerned it. The question could be changed to be ‘beloved mother/father/sister/friend etc’ - the word beloved is important here too, since it seems a cherished friend would be missed. We all have faults, meaning we all have dear friends with faults, so it is possible a close one might not make it to the other side while we do, and yet we are promised eternal happiness but it seems we would miss that dear friend/family member a lot. But then again, that is an object of ‘self’ and love of ‘self’ gets purged, but still I wonder…also I know God’s love is very powerful and quite overwhelming, as Maria Vallago-Najera’s testimony demonstrates:

medjugorje.net/content/view/118/84/

I have always wondered the same thing, which is why I just have to hope for God’s mercy on all of us. Wonderful article, and I’m glad to hear all is well with your family

 

[dailey]

Perhaps the rich man is in purgatory. That verse has never been dogmatically interpreted as hell.

I hope so! But I thought the conclusion was that he was in hell? I just was reading about this a few days ago here on CAF.

 

[Third_Day]

I hope so! But I thought the conclusion was that he was in hell? I just was reading about this a few days ago here on CAF.

Luke 16 the parable of the rich man has never been defined by the Church. Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid both believe that the man is in purgatory because a soul in hell cannot have any grace and yet the rich man shows love ( a gift of grace) for his five brothers. Other theologians believe love for his brothers is not the intent of the rich man and he is in hell. Pope Benedict makes reference to this parable. Is he saying the man is in purgatory? Possibly.

SPE SALVI
44…In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found, inter alia, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.
45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Because if the OP is actually grieving the loss of his/her brother (not sure) then I think your words were harsh and unproductive. The poster was asking a philosophical question about the nature of Heaven and you basically came back with, “If your brother is burning in Hell forever he obviously deserves it.” I think that was unkind and very insensitive.

But how do THEY KNOW he is in Hell. You dont know if the brother is in HELL. Thats speculation. But if he is in HELL - he is in HELL because of his misdeeds against GOD.

Scripture says " Judge not lest ye be judged. "

For you to assume the brother is in Hell is uncalled for on your part and on the part of the person who began this thread.

We are to discuss the reality of hell in the spirit of Charity so as to make people want to avoid going there - not to pass judgement as though any of us know definitively.

Only GOD Knows.

I think you need to revisit that.

pax

 

[GentleKnight60]

When you are in hell you are lost completely from God and from Heaven. I doubt you would feel torment in Heaven if indeed one of your family members does go to hell. If anything your anguished memories of a loved one would be overshadowed by the peace, glories and love in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
But nothing and no one is “lost”. You can pray for your brothers conversion, even if it takes years and years. You can also pray the “Dirvine Mercy Chaplet” which states from St. Faustina’s diary " When they say this chaplet in the presence of the dying, I will stand between My Father and the dying person, not as the just Judge but as the Merciful Saviour." “Even if there were a sinner most hardened, if he (or a loved one) were to recite this chaplet only once, he would receive grace from My infinite mercy”.
You need to read about the “Divine Mercy”. You need to Trust in the Lord. You need to Trust in yourself and in your prayers. The Divine Mercy is not just for the dying but for any concerns you may have. Basically it’s saying (my interpertation) “if it matters to you then it matters to me (Jesus).” And for the dying (my interpertation) “if you can forgive a person their sins by the praying of the Divine Mercy (or see the goodness within them), then I (the Lord) cannot help but to do the same.” Pray the Divine Mercy and pray to Our Lady of Fatima for the conversion of sinners.
God Bless and don’t wait for you loved one to end up in hell.

 

[palmas855]

If I “make it” in through the narrow gate, I am promised eternal joy. But how can I be happy if my brother does not make it and is suffering abominable torments forever?

How do you know or how would you know if he is in Hell or Purgatory? No one knows what goes through the mind of another right before he or she dies and that alone could be the determining factor. It is quite possible, although I personally doubt it, that there are very few people actually in Hell. Who knows?

My best guess is that most of us will end up in Purgatory and I think that is a safe bet.

 

[zab]

When my brother who was close to my age was 28 years old, he was killed instantly in a small plane crash. He was not a practicing Catholic at the time and he liked to drink and party so the state of his soul tormented me for several years. I finally came to a peace about it after about 10 years. Yes, there is a hell, and yes, my brother would have to somehow pass the test even if a choice was somehow put to him in a flash of a second. But, if I, a miserable sinner can have compassion for my brother , how much more so does God? The not knowing his fate is probably best for me but I have not lost my trust in God Who is infinitely more loving and compassionate and merciful than I.

 

[zab]

Well I answered your question from my experience here on earth. I don’t know yet how the saints or God enjoy happiness in heaven.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

But how do THEY KNOW he is in Hell. You dont know if the brother is in HELL. Thats speculation. But if he is in HELL - he is in HELL because of his misdeeds against GOD.

Scripture says " Judge not lest ye be judged. "

For you to assume the brother is in Hell is uncalled for on your part and on the part of the person who began this thread.

We are to discuss the reality of hell in the spirit of Charity so as to make people want to avoid going there - not to pass judgement as though any of us know definitively.

Only GOD Knows.

I think you need to revisit that.

pax

What? I was absolutely NOT assuming that the brother was in Hell. I was acknowledging that for the OP, this was considered to be a real possibility because of circumstances only he/she knows about and did not share with us here on this board. The point here is that if someone is grieving a horrible loss, the last thing they need to hear is that if that person is in Hell, they deserved it.

If I were at a loved one’s funeral and talking with someone and said, “I really pray that he made it to Heaven because I hope to go there and I can’t imagine Heaven without him”, and they said to me, “Well, if he’s not, it’s his own fault”, well I daresay things might just get violent.

It’s inappropriate.

Thankfully, the OP was just posing a hypothetical question and is not truly grieving such a terrible loss. Comments like that could push someone over the edge.

 

[JaredR]

I second the suggestion that you read The Great Divorce. It is a very short, enjoyable read that proposes an answer to your question.

 

[Robert_Burns]

What? I was absolutely NOT assuming that the brother was in Hell. I was acknowledging that for the OP, this was considered to be a real possibility because of circumstances only he/she knows about and did not share with us here on this board. The point here is that if someone is grieving a horrible loss, the last thing they need to hear is that if that person is in Hell, they deserved it.

If I were at a loved one’s funeral and talking with someone and said, “I really pray that he made it to Heaven because I hope to go there and I can’t imagine Heaven without him”, and they said to me, “Well, if he’s not, it’s his own fault”, well I daresay things might just get violent.

It’s inappropriate.

Thankfully, the OP was just posing a hypothetical question and is not truly grieving such a terrible loss. Comments like that could push someone over the edge.

NO ONE can say , no matter how much they think they know - about the salvation of another. So once again - Asd I stated prior - the uncharitable thing here is to assume someone is in Hell definitively. No matter how much one thinks they know. Even about a Family Member. Secondly - the Person already stated that the Brother is still alive. My post was said with this knowledge. Review the Thread. Third - EVERYONE in Hell does deserve it. WHY? Because only GOD can send them there. Are you saying there are some there WHO Dont deserve to be there? And if so - how is it that any man (Who scripture forbids to judge to begin with) can claim to have greater judgement than GOD?

Now as for your time and place - the Scenario outlined in the original post didnt say anything about being at a funeral. Had it - my approach would have been obviously different. To imply otherwise is disengenuous. The subject isnt what to say at a funeral. It is - how does one reconcile the sadness one would feel having attained heaven personally while a loved one during ones life on Earth had been condemned to Hell. My answers reflected the scenario of the original topic. They are applicable to that topic. Now if you want to know what I would say at a funeral - then ask me.

 

[StevenFrancis]

If I “make it” in through the narrow gate, I am promised eternal joy. But how can I be happy if my brother does not make it and is suffering abominable torments forever?

In a way we don’t fully understand, I believe you won’t feel badly about it. You can’t. You’ll be in paradise. Perhaps it works itself out during purgation and perfection of our own souls? One thing I’m trying to grasp is that those in hell have truly, and in every way chosen it. They simply don’t want what we want. They just don’t love God. So hell is a choice. It is a direct use of the free will to choose eternal separation for God. If paradise is perfect, then you won’t be in sorrow.

Anyway…Very important to pray for the living, AND the dead. Since we need to pray for the dead, then those prayers for the dead are efficacious in some way. Also, we don’t know what mysteries await us at the moment of death, when separated from the constructs of time, perhaps a person may amend what were their apparent choices in their life at the moment of death looking like a second to us, but eons to the one dying and to God. We’re not the judges. We need to live our lives towards heaven. Speak of the good news to all who will hear us! But those who won’t hear, won’t hear. We’re assured that we’re not responsible. Also a difficult concept from me because I came from a Buddhist practice in which a Buddha named Amitabah took a vow to not achieve enlightenment until all had achieved enlightenment. Until all men had achieved enlightenment, however, the rest of us waited things out in a paradise called the “Pure Land”. The big problem for me eventually was the same as with all Buddhism, and it’s the major divide in Buddhism and Christianity. “Enlightenment” is cessation of ego and attachment. Cessation of being. As a Buddhist I was striving to cease, as a Christian I striving for eternal conscious being. Fully engaged as opposed to fully detached. Really not even all that subtle a difference, but took me forever to see.

But perhaps if old uncle so and so isn’t in heaven, you’re consoled in knowing that he got what he desired. Separation from God.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[StevenFrancis]

God is infinitely merciful but He is also infinitely just. The souls suffering the torments of Hell chose their destination and God will not override their choice.

The reason we will be happy in Heaven despite our loved one’s being in Hell is that we will see God’s justice and understand. We will see that this person will have formed his soul away from God and he would be just as if not more miserable with God than he is in Hell.

Very well stated.

Blessings,

Steven