How can i defend the Church's executions?

[Matthewmatt]

How can i defend cases where the Church had people burned at the stake or other death penalties like St. Joan of Arc and certain Heretics. I know the Church doesnt approve of it now but how could we of ever allowed people to be executed based on heresy?

God Bless

God will never leave His Church

 

[Corki]

There is no blanket answer. You have to research each case. In many cases, the Church gets “blamed” for executing someone when it was actualy the civil government that executed the person.

There is no Church teaching that executions are always wrong. Heresy during some points in history was equal to treason which even now is a capital offense.

 

[Trishie]

You can’t. Serious wrongs sometimes occurred.
We can only seek forgiveness and healing.
From my understanding, there was a strong political element in some of these events.
When secular political issues become entwined with spiritual, harm sometimes results.
The Church must always return to the Gospel.

 

[The_Scott]

In many cases, the Church gets “blamed” for executing someone when it was actualy the civil government that executed the person.

Truth be told, I don’t really like this answer. Isn’t this what Pontius Pilate said when he washed his hands, relieving himself from responsibility Christ’s death?

To Matthewmatt, you should realize that most of these executions are politically motivated (such as, for example, Girolamo Savonarola in 1498).

 

[Defender1]

How can i defend cases where the Church had people burned at the stake or other death penalties like St. Joan of Arc and certain Heretics. I know the Church doesnt approve of it now but how could we of ever allowed people to be executed based on heresy?

God Bless

God will never leave His Church

Also The Catechism as you may know does not completely outlaw execution .The Church says at times it may be appropriate .

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Even though the clergy and church courts didn’t carry out the executions they did formally cooperate with them, so if the executions were wrong the clerics and courts involved still bear a moral responsibility for them.

Also there were various cultural elements to take into consideration regarding the unity of society, the relationships between Church and State, etc., but none of these things can excuse what happened if executing someone for heresy is intrinsically evil.

The more difficult question is whether executing someone for heresy is indeed intrinsically evil. Many modern Catholics would say yes and that would be my first instinct, but many great saints and scholors like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Thomas More would say no, so I’m undecided.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I don’t like the idea of the church executing, nor encouraging the execution of,
ANYBODY, especially for doctrinal error (herresy).
That doesn’t necessarily make me RIGHT, but it IS how I feel.

However, let’s put some things in context.
Today, it would be OUTRAGEOUS to execute nonCatholics for heresy.
These people were born and raised in their religions/churches, and follow
their beliefs generally in good faith. They AND THEIR TEACHERS FOR MANY GENRATIONS PAST, have been given misleading information about doctrine,
about the HISTORY of Christian doctrine, about the HISTORY of the Christian church
itself. They are NOT blameworthy.
The world is chock full of antiCatholic propaganda which has been around for hundreds of years and which misleads many good-hearted people because it sounds so convincing.
Back in the days of the executions of heretics, a person in error, a formal heretic,
was not sincerely wading through volumes and reams of antiCatholic b.s. and being sincerely deceived by it. The truth about Christian doctrinal history was available to all.
When a person launched a heresy back in those days, he did it REFUSING to be corrected, REFUSING to be reasoned with, in short, out of pure, unadulterated selfwill.
THAT is infinitely more culpable than the position of our separated brethren today.
Granted, even some of those people back then may still have had an excuse: namely, the constant bad behavior of some Catholics, which scandalized them and caused them to doubt the church.
In the end, only God has the right to execute a heretic, NOT the pope, not St. Thomas More (God bless him), not the great Saint Pius V, not anybody. Even great Saints like Bernard of Clairvaux expressed horror at the very thought of executing someone for heresy.
But in general, the church rarely ever called for people to be executed, let alone
carried out the executions herself.
A prime reason for punishing arch-heretics so severely was the belief that their errors were so dangerous that if left to go on their merry way, these men would lead millions of otherwise-saved souls literally to Hell, and the church did not want to be responsible for allowing them to do that, by doing nothing.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Mystic_Banana]

How can i defend cases where the Church had people burned at the stake or other death penalties like St. Joan of Arc and certain Heretics. I know the Church doesnt approve of it now but how could we of ever allowed people to be executed based on heresy?

God Bless

God will never leave His Church

Didn’t always approve of it then!

You have to realise, the national inquisitions answered not directly to the Vatican, but to the state. It’s a bit like occupational health doctors (in the UK - not sure how things work in the US). Technically speaking, they are trained doctors dedicated to objectively evaluating the ability of workers to work, return to work, how to accomodate work etc. In reality, they are paid for and serve the employers in finding excuses not to have to cater for long-term sickness, inconvenient recovery, etc.

And in a similar way, the inquisitors were trained clergymen, but they were employed by the governments of the nations they served, rather than being part of the normal Church hierarchies. The relationship between the Vatican and the inquisitions was often belligerent: Remember, Joan of Arc was killed off speedily while a Vatican reprieve (or somesuch) was in transit. Similarly, the notorious Torquemada was contemptuous of Papal authority, and the Pope of the time openly questioned the honesty of Torquemada. Now if I could only find the original quotes…

 

[StarSapphire]

This is easy. Whenever anyone brings this ‘issue’ up, answer very firmly “I never confuse religion with politics.”

Questions of God, spirituality, Christian communities, different faiths even, are all questions of religion.

The City State systems of medieval and Renaissance Italy are something else altogether. It was an evolving system that was still forming the modern European system as we know it today - warring principalities, competing city states, of course many used religion as an excuse for their own ends, they still do.

But religion are spirituality are different questions altogether from using religion as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour, or for instigating conflicts.

Say very clearly you are happy to discuss matters of religion, spirituality and the church, but that you are Catholic, not a political scientist (unless you ARE a political scientist, obviously…)

 

[thomasf]

In the bible there are many examples of God allowing people to die, causing their death, or outright killing people. If you were a Jew that had escaped Egypt don’t dare touch the Ark of the Covenant, or you’d be struck dead on the spot. Apparently it was okay with Him.

That being said, you cannot compare the modern day to ancient times and what they did then, etc. Prime example, 200 years ago in the US black people were held as slaves. Today that’s reprehensible. Yet the people that founded this nation even owned slaves. How do you defend that to people?

The answer is, you don’t. Things change, times change, and people continue to develop sensibilities. Burning heretics at the stake was what happened back then. Today it wouldn’t happen. You can’t judge people of yesterday based on the conventions of today.

And btw, you can always ask them how they would justify stoning of women and beheadings that happen today in Muslim countries.

 

[Trishie]

Truth be told, I don’t really like this answer. Isn’t this what Pontius Pilate said when he washed his hands, relieving himself from responsibility Christ’s death?

To Matthewmatt, you should realize that most of these executions are politically motivated (such as, for example, Girolamo Savonarola in 1498).

And one snapshot of history where the religious judgements were influenced by a temporal authority.
“The Templars’ existence was tied closely to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the Order faded. Rumors about the Templars’ secret initiation ceremony created mistrust, and King Philip IV of France, deeply in debt to the Order, took advantage of the situation. In 1307, many of the Order’s members in France were arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and then burned at the stake.[8] Under pressure from King Philip, Pope Clement V disbanded the Order in 1312”[Knights Templar, From Wikipedia]
This is one example of how political interests influenced some of the serious acts taken at a time when Church and State were too intertwined.

In England, with both the persecution of Protestants by Catholics and the persecution of Catholics by Protestants, resulting in executions, were partially politically motivated in quest for the throne and power.

It isn’t as simple as that, of course, but the Church sometimes unwisely was too involved with secular politics.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

In the bible there are many examples of God allowing people to die, causing their death, or outright killing people. If you were a Jew that had escaped Egypt don’t dare touch the Ark of the Covenant, or you’d be struck dead on the spot. Apparently it was okay with Him.

That being said, you cannot compare the modern day to ancient times and what they did then, etc. Prime example, 200 years ago in the US black people were held as slaves. Today that’s reprehensible. Yet the people that founded this nation even owned slaves. How do you defend that to people?

The answer is, you don’t. Things change, times change, and people continue to develop sensibilities. Burning heretics at the stake was what happened back then. Today it wouldn’t happen. You can’t judge people of yesterday based on the conventions of today.

And btw, you can always ask them how they would justify stoning of women and beheadings that happen today in Muslim countries.

Many things differ across the centuries or cultures, but objective morality is not one of them.

 

[Corki]

Truth be told, I don’t really like this answer. Isn’t this what Pontius Pilate said when he washed his hands, relieving himself from responsibility Christ’s death?

To Matthewmatt, you should realize that most of these executions are politically motivated (such as, for example, Girolamo Savonarola in 1498).

I just meant that there is no blanket explanation. There were lots of different social, political and religious reasons why someone might face capital punishment and the lines were not as clear as they were today.

 

[HPM1984]

I just meant that there is no blanket explanation. There were lots of different social, political and religious reasons why someone might face capital punishment and the lines were not as clear as they were today.

It is clear that the RCC condoned executions and that members of the RCC clergy actively participated in them. Does that destroy the credibilty and power of the RCC? No it does not! Of course this same question dogs the Protestant Reformation leaders who also committed heinous acts in the name of Christ. Take the example of 1533 when John Calvin burned Michael Servetus at the stake. It is self evident from the law that God has written on our hearts that this is wrong (St. Paul writing in Romans), any attempt by either RCCs or Protestants to excuse these actions and shift blame is…well nothing but an attempt to excuse a grevious sins and terrible wrongs.

But I take comfort in the verse in Romans 3 (there is a Romans Study Group on CAF that I would encourage those who are interested in joining):

Young Literal Translation: Romans 3:3-4 (3)for what, if certain were faithless? shall their faithlessness the faithfulness of god make useless? (4 ) let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged

So we can see from St. Paul’s writings to the Roman Church that if we see faithless (even in the those entrusted with Religious things) this does NOT render God faithless!

 

[The_Scott]

I just meant that there is no blanket explanation. There were lots of different social, political and religious reasons why someone might face capital punishment and the lines were not as clear as they were today.

Sorry, my objection wasn’t directed to you specifically, but to the general claim that you stated. I have heard people on here, though, say that “the Church has never killed anyone; it was always the State!” And I think that claim is a load.

 

[HPM1984]

Sorry, my objection wasn’t directed to you specifically, but to the general claim that you stated. I have heard people on here, though, say that “the Church has never killed anyone; it was always the State!” And I think that claim is a load.

Amen Brother- if we are going to Evangelize, whether as Protestants (yours truly- although I am heading towards the RCC) or as Catholics my view is we have to be brutally honest and truthful about the past. This is actually in line, with what I believe is the official RCC position, that the Church Triumphant is infallible but is defectable because it is headed by humans- with all their inherent frailities . Both RCC and various Protestant denominations (as pointed out here and elsewhere) have stains on their past because of bad decisions and the thinking thaleads to things like the means justifies the end (along the lines, in some cases of case of “I will kill your mortal body to save your soul”).

As Christ said :

Young’s Literal Translation: John 8:31-31 (31)Jesus, therefore, said unto the Jews who believed in him, 'If ye may remain in my word, truly my disciples ye are, and ye shall know the truth, (32 )and the truth shall make you free

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Amen Brother- if we are going to Evangelize, whether as Protestants (yours truly- although I am heading towards the RCC) or as Catholics my view is we have to be brutally honest and truthful about the past. This is actually in line, with what I believe is the official RCC position, that the Church Triumphant is infallible but is defectable because it is headed by humans- with all their inherent frailities . Both RCC and various Protestant denominations (as pointed out here and elsewhere) have stains on their past because of bad decisions and the thinking thaleads to things like the means justifies the end (along the lines, in some cases of case of “I will kill your mortal body to save your soul”).

As Christ said :

Young’s Literal Translation: John 8:31-31 (31)Jesus, therefore, said unto the Jews who believed in him, 'If ye may remain in my word, truly my disciples ye are, and ye shall know the truth, (32 )and the truth shall make you free

Still, before you just sort of say “yes it happened! Religion isn’t perfect” it’s worth checking the circumstances, which are often not as they are popularly portrayed as being

 

[Calgar]

How can i defend cases where the Church had people burned at the stake or other death penalties

Name a specific case.

Joan of Ark was tried and executed by the secular government so that doesn’t count. The church trial was seperate and didn’t sentence her to death.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

You can’t. Serious wrongs sometimes occurred.
We can only seek forgiveness and healing.
From my understanding, there was a strong political element in some of these events.
When secular political issues become entwined with spiritual, harm sometimes results.
The Church must always return to the Gospel.

Amen, great points here.

 

[babyface]

You don’t. No one has the right to kill another human being, regardless of what religion you follow. God is love. I admit the Church made serious errors in the past, but the past is in the past. Evil begats evil.