How can I explain that homosexuality is wrong to a gay man?

[catsrus]

originally posted by setter
Natural law of design.

Exactly.
If he/she is not open to any moral explaination, just give him the plug and outlet demonstration.

 

[Pug]

If it comes to a debate, how to I convince him that homosexuality is wrong?

Why has he said he wishes to debate it with you, do you know? This could be an opening for the Holy Spirit to work on his heart; don’t dismiss that as an option. It is true that many people here will have debated with someone on this issue and found their heart to be like stone, but do not *assume *this will be the case for your gay man. This assumption could accidentally reflect itself in your tone of voice.

Stay true to the truth and stay true to love. Love this man (I mean charity kind of love). Stray, and you will regret it… Keep in mind why the Christian message is one of joy, and don’t fail to communicate that overall framework along with an individual moral truth like no gay sex. That way the gay man won’t complain about it all being stupid rules. Christianity is more enriching to who this man is than the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[dorothy_smith]

How do you know that some men and women have been born with same sex attraction?

Do you “know” this? By doing research or going by the media?

You have only to go out amongst the community (any community, anywhere, any place) to see gay people. I mean people who are born gay. I don’t mean sexual deviants and sex predators. I mean poor unfortunate souls who are born gay. You can distinguish between someone born gay and someone born straight just as easily as you can distinguish a cat from a dog. It is sad but it is plain fact that in this world there are straight people and gay people.

I have met some gay people whom I consider immoral and quite nasty. Then again, I have met some gay people with hearts of gold - who are kind, gentle, and very respectable. You get good and bad gay people just the same as you do straight people. My motto is ‘treat other people how you would like them to treat you’.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

I’ve recently come into contact with someone who is openly gay, and see’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. He’s even wanting to debate the issue with me. He says “Love is love” and it doesn’t matter who you’re in love with. He keeps saying that gay marriage should be legal.

If it comes to a debate, how to I convince him that homosexuality is wrong?

You cannot, and it is right that you cannot.
Our Lord said:
Judge not, that you be not judged.
You can say that homosexuality is abnormal, and the gay person, if reasonable will agree, but right and wrong are here irrelevant.
The problem seems to be our understanding of gender.
We assume that ‘XX’ is always female, and that ‘XY’ is always male. There is indication from nature, that this is not the case. ‘XX’ normally causes the generations of hormones which promote female development, and ‘XY’ v.v… However, the best laid schemes can be upset, and a malfunction can occur. ‘XY’ females are fairly common, but are invariably sterile.
The real problem is brain development. The female brain is different from the male brain. Ask a man to do two simultaneous tasks, and you will understand!
Now, do you want to force a mental missfit to comply with a normal situation. Do you want to force a gay man into a partnership with a normal female or v.v.? That would be a cruelty to both.
Do you want to deny happiness to these unfortunately afflicted people, who are not sick, ill, or misguided, they are just different, having suffered a developmental error during gender differentiation.
If you read carefully the judgements of the Jewish and Muslim texts, you will see that they are in some ways to be treated as lepers. Separated from those who have not the affliction, but not otherwise condemned.
Provided that they do what they do amongst themselves, and do not interface inappropriately with normal folk, then the old teachings are satisfied, and these unfortunate afflicted people are not made to suffer denial that normal folk are not made to suffer.
If they can find happiness with eachother, then we should leave judgement to The LORD.

 

[Spirit_Driven]

As long as the Potter has right over the Clay… you have no hope at all…

Oh I was answering the Original Post Question

 

[Anim8]

Homosexuality is NOT wrong. People cannot help how they are born. There are a lot of celibate homosexuals.

What is wrong however, is homosexual unions and homosexual sex.

I doubt very much that you will ever convince him that same sex is wrong. Society is telling him it is ok and worse, it is religious freaks like us who are trying to pretend that it is wrong. He will probably tell you how ‘homosexual men commit less crime than heterosexuals etc etc’.

I am afraid there is probably little you can tell him and anything you do say will most certainly cost you your friendship.

Let me clear this up.

Same sex attraction is not a sin. Acting on it is. I do not consider someone to who has a same sex attraction and is chaste to be homosexual.

Someone can be made angry to the point of wanting to kill someone, but until they act on that temptation they are not a murderer. Same case here, just because they have a temptation to be homosexual, doesn’t make them gay until they act. I I call someon gay, I’m talking about someone actively pursuing a homosexual lifestyle.

And I think that “I was born with it” is a load of ****. We are created (except for original sin) in perfect innocence. It is the work of the Tempter who perverts minds to believe other things. Someone might be gay from a young age, but homosexuality is not of God (if it was, then it would be ok).

**Voco proTatiano

**I’m not trying to judge anyone. I met this guy online, and he argued that same sex marriage should be made legal. I said that I didn’t think so, then he said he was gay, and the debate went on. The first thing you have to prove, if you are arguing against gay marriage, is that homosexual behavior is wrong. Hence this post.

 

[Seatuck]

You have only to go out amongst the community (any community, anywhere, any place) to see gay people. I mean people who are born gay. I don’t mean sexual deviants and sex predators. I mean poor unfortunate souls who are born gay. You can distinguish between someone born gay and someone born straight just as easily as you can distinguish a cat from a dog. It is sad but it is plain fact that in this world there are straight people and gay people.

I have met some gay people whom I consider immoral and quite nasty. Then again, I have met some gay people with hearts of gold - who are kind, gentle, and very respectable. You get good and bad gay people just the same as you do straight people. My motto is ‘treat other people how you would like them to treat you’.

How do you know they were born that way and it didn’t deveop as a disorder in childhood or adolescence?

 

[TheGarg]

Genetically?? I am not a scientist but** I do know that some men and women are born gay**. I mean to say that there are some men and women who are both ‘physically’ and mentally identifiable gay. Not by the way they dress nor by the way they behave but by their whole being. (clergy and religious included)

Now, is wrong for two people who are in love to have sex?? (I don’t mean clergy) It is not for me to judge. I, personally, might not like the thought of it, but then again, I am not gay.

this is incorrect and has no foundation. it has NEVER been proven and the studies made by the Gay Agenda is not even remotely close to proving it. research it.

of course technically speaking, nothing can really be proved absolute scientifically.

 

[goofyjim]

this is incorrect and has no foundation. it has NEVER been proven and the studies made by the Gay Agenda is not even remotely close to proving it. research it.

of course technically speaking, nothing can really be proved absolute scientifically.

It hasn’t been ruled out either. There may yet be a biological cause just as there some people who are born with both male and female parts.

 

[Sixtus]

nd I think that “I was born with it” is a load of ****. We are created (except for original sin) in perfect innocence. It is the work of the Tempter who perverts minds to believe other things. Someone might be gay from a young age, but homosexuality is not of God (if it was, then it would be ok).

While at one level I am tempted to agree with you, I will not because of the contents [by pure coincidence] above, where some people are of no clear gender.

Some are also male physiology [so present as man] but female genetics [are really female].

I even know of one such woman who is living her life as a man and is big in freemasonry. She thinks it is a real joke.

Her job: she is a teacher. She lives a male existence. She dresses and behaves like a man. She admits to having had a relationship with a man when she was a teenager.

Is she a homosexual or heterosexual?

Remember she is fully physiologically male. Her friends and work colleagues think she is male. She has lived as a male for so long that she says she would be too embarrassed to bring her physiology in line with her genotype. She was raised as a boy. Her parents died without ever knowing she was female. She is well known in the town where she lives. She has no desire to move away and start again. So she is living her life as she started it, as a male.

She was even married for 29-years until her wife found out, then it was all over.

A question to all those who say homosexuality is digusting:

Tell me: WOULD SHE BE RIGHT OR WRONG TO SLEEP WITH A MAN!!!

 

[Exalt]

I’ve recently come into contact with someone who is openly gay, and see’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. He’s even wanting to debate the issue with me. He says “Love is love” and it doesn’t matter who you’re in love with. He keeps saying that gay marriage should be legal.

If it comes to a debate, how to I convince him that homosexuality is wrong?

Convince him?

My friend, the only way any convincing will take place is if you are BOTH open to changing your mind. How can you expect him to be open to change when *you *aren’t? Imagine what impact him believing that homosexuality is wrong would have on his life. He would have to abandon his husband/partner, if he had one. If they had any adopted children, he would have to turn his back on them too. He likely has a good number of openly gay friends - he’d most likely have to distance himself from them too.

You’re asking him to be open to doing all that. What are you open to?

If you really want to convince him, you’re going to have to be open to being convinced yourself. *If you are unwilling to open yourself to having **your *mind changed on this issue, then you had better not have it your goal to change his mind.

 

[Sixtus]

FOR THE RECORD

In case you think such cases are rare, they are on the increase. 1 in every 600 live births are such anomalies.

The incidence of homosexuality is as per the normal population distribution.

That means that either the majority are heterosexual if you go by their outward physiological appearance, or they are lesbian if you go by their genetic code.

As modern medicine does not know how to classify them, they are classified according to their physiology and the presence of testicles.

But to confuse things further, their scrotum does not contain ‘testicles’ but descended ovaries.

It is usual to encourage mothers of such anomalies to have an abortion. I asked my friend what she thought to it. She said 'she is glad to be alive. She sees abortion for her condition as nothing short of unjustifiable murder

 

[vern_humphrey]

Reading this thread, I’m reminded of a rather old and fairly tasteless cartoon. An uptight sort is staring aghast at a home movie screen and a Hippie asks him, “What’s the matter? Haven’t you ever seen five people, a shetland pony and a German schnauser in love before?”

The point? Lust is not love.

And one more point – the Church does not say homosexuality is a sin. It says homosexual acts are inherently disordered (and hence sinful.) It recognizes that there are people with Same Sex Attraction – and we don’t really know what causes it or what to do about it.

Persons with SSA are like persons with a predispostion to alcoholism, drug abuse, high hetrosexual drive, or to sudden bursts of violent anger. It isn’t a sin to have such a predesposition. It is a sin to give into it.

We all have our crosses to bear and it’s hard to see how someone with SSA can say his is harder to bear than someone else born with Down’s Syndrome, or no arms, or many other things that afflict the Human Race.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Let me clear this up.

**Voco proTatiano

**I’m not trying to judge anyone. I met this guy online, and he argued that same sex marriage should be made legal. I said that I didn’t think so, then he said he was gay, and the debate went on. The first thing you have to prove, if you are arguing against gay marriage, is that homosexual behavior is wrong. Hence this post.

The point I was trying to make, and which you have avoided is that those who have suffered defective gender differentiation, (homosexuals or transexuals), should be permitted to make of their lives such as they can, provided that this has no negative impact upon those who have differentiated normally, (straights).
It is as gross for straights to condemn the aflicted as is vice versa.
Provided that these unfortunates have a life-style which is appropriate with their effective gender or lack of, then judgment should be left to GOD, who after all, has over-all responsibility for the genetic malfunction causing this misfortune.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The point I was trying to make, and which you have avoided is that those who have suffered defective gender differentiation, (homosexuals or transexuals), should be permitted to make of their lives such as they can, provided that this has no negative impact upon those who have differentiated normally, (straights).
It is as gross for straights to condemn the aflicted as is vice versa.
Provided that these unfortunates have a life-style which is appropriate with their effective gender or lack of, then judgment should be left to GOD, who after all, has over-all responsibility for the genetic malfunction causing this misfortune.

Hmmm, well, this is a Catholic forum. And the Catholic Church does have the Magisterium (teaching authority) and the Kharisma of Infalibility. And we laity are bound to accept what the Magisterium teaches de fide.

Now the Church has spoken in this matter. Same Sex Attraction is not sinful. But homosexual acts are inherently disordered (and hence sinful.)

What are we to do, vote God out of office?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Reading this thread, I’m reminded of a rather old and fairly tasteless cartoon. An uptight sort is staring aghast at a home movie screen and a Hippie asks him, “What’s the matter? Haven’t you ever seen five people, a shetland pony and a German schnauser in love before?”

The point? Lust is not love.

And one more point – the Church does not say homosexuality is a sin. It says homosexual acts are inherently disordered (and hence sinful.) It recognizes that there are people with Same Sex Attraction – and we don’t really know what causes it or what to do about it.

Homosexuality is a disordered condition. It results from an error in gender differentiation, It is not a choice made by the aflicted one.
It is un-natural to expect a creature with a disordered gender differentiation to behave as if the differentiation was normal.
It is also un-natural to demand of these unfortunates, that they do not form relationships appropriate to them, and comfort each-other within that relationship, in a manner appropriate.
AND only they, and GOD can judge what is appropriate.
This is, provided that the OT caveat is complied with, namely, that in personal relationships, they keep to themselves, and do not deliberately interface in an inappropriate manner with those not afflicted.
The curse they bear is sufficient without ignorant people judging them inappropriately.

Persons with SSA are like persons with a predispostion to alcoholism, drug abuse, high hetrosexual drive, or to sudden bursts of violent anger. It isn’t a sin to have such a predesposition. It is a sin to give into it.

We all have our crosses to bear and it’s hard to see how someone with SSA can say his is harder to bear than someone else born with Down’s Syndrome, or no arms, or many other things that afflict the Human Race.

 

[blessedtoo]

Genetically?? I am not a scientist but I do know that some men and women are born gay.

It is irrelevent whether a person if “born gay” or not.

I mean to say that there are some men and women who are both ‘physically’ and mentally identifiable gay. Not by the way they dress nor by the way they behave but by their whole being. (clergy and religious included)

I don’t even know what this means . You can read by their “whole being” that they were born gay? Sorry, that’s just emotionalism run amok.

Now, is it wrong for two people who are in love to have sex?? (I don’t mean clergy) It is not for me to judge. I, personally, might not like the thought of it, but then again, I am not gay.

No, it’s for God. And He’s been pretty clear on the matter. If you are a Catholic, however, it is your obligation to preach the truth of Christ’s Word at all times.

 

[blessedtoo]

While at one level I am tempted to agree with you, I will not because of the contents [by pure coincidence] above, where some people are of no clear gender.

Some are also male physiology [so present as man] but female genetics [are really female].

I even know of one such woman who is living her life as a man and is big in freemasonry. She thinks it is a real joke.

Her job: she is a teacher. She lives a male existence. She dresses and behaves like a man. She admits to having had a relationship with a man when she was a teenager.

Is she a homosexual or heterosexual?

Remember she is fully physiologically male. Her friends and work colleagues think she is male. She has lived as a male for so long that she says she would be too embarrassed to bring her physiology in line with her genotype. She was raised as a boy. Her parents died without ever knowing she was female. She is well known in the town where she lives. She has no desire to move away and start again. So she is living her life as she started it, as a male.

She was even married for 29-years until her wife found out, then it was all over.

A question to all those who say homosexuality is digusting:

Tell me: WOULD SHE BE RIGHT OR WRONG TO SLEEP WITH A MAN!!!

What’s the point of all this? If she is physically a woman “living as a man” (whatever that means) who sleeps with men then she is a transvestite heterosexual. That’s not relevant to our conversation so why bring it up?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…) You can distinguish between someone born gay and someone born straight just as easily as you can distinguish a cat from a dog. It is sad but it is plain fact that in this world there are straight people and gay people.
(…)

I had friend, sort of, who thought this. She was always diagnosing people as gay. I wasn’t the only one who noticed this. And she was often (almost always?) wrong.

You may think your gaydar is amazing but how do you know it’s accurate? I know you don’t approach people and ask or poll their acquaintences. There are butch looking women who are straight as as…as well something really straight and effeminate men or boys who are straight but are teased or accused of being gay. I know gay people who are gay that you wouldn’t be able to tell.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)
I am not so much out to convert him, as I am wanting to be able to hold my own in an argument. I think my best bet is to let him make the arguments, then refute them.

(…)

Thank you for not trying to do the Holy Spirit’s job (trying to convert him).
/sarcasm

OTOH why are you arguing with him? To win? Then you will probably lose. As others have suggested upthread it’s unlikely you will change his mind.

It’s unfortunate that this is an online exchange. People typically forget that there is a real live person with feelings and a soul on the other end. It’s not really likely that both of you are interested in establishing a a real friendship where you share something in common. Most likely you will go back and forth ultimately infuriating each other because the other of you isn’t smacking his forehead and saying “I think you are right!!”.

If you insult him (even if you didn’t mean to) you may also drive him further from the truth. Next time he may not even engage the person with the Truth. That’s why I say you will ultimately lose.

Telling a person “you’re wrong!” is not the most winsome way to bring someone closer to the Truth. Oh, yeah, that’s right: You just want to hold your own in an arguement. I guess I just don’t think this is very sportsman like considering someone’s soul is on the line.