How can I find out if a religious order is liberal?

[avon712]

Is there some sort of non-biased resource I can check out that will help me find out which religious orders in the U.S. are more traditional, and orthodox and which not?

For example: I hear rumors that Maryknoll and Jesuits tend to be more socially liberal and attract people who don’t always agree with the vatican; while Dominicans, Cisctercians, and Fransiscans are more traditional and in line with church teaching. But I guess it is all in perspective, since an SSPX or Legionary of Christ person would probably consider Fransiscans too “liberal.”

Right now I have to look for subtle or intangible evidence, like this one sister I know who doesn’t wear a habit and is always talking about women’s rights. That gives me clues about the Sisters of St. Mary of Namur, but I don’t want to condemn them all with the label “Oh, they’re a liberal order.”

Is there any place I can get real evidence (exmple: “The Passionists support the use of the enneagram, while Rome condemns it”) and compasionate guidance?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Is there some sort of non-biased resource I can check out that will help me find out which religious orders in the U.S. are more traditional, and orthodox and which not?

For example: I hear rumors that Maryknoll and Jesuits tend to be more socially liberal and attract people who don’t always agree with the vatican; while Dominicans, Cisctercians, and Fransiscans are more traditional and in line with church teaching. But I guess it is all in perspective, since an SSPX or Legionary of Christ person would probably consider Fransiscans too “liberal.”

Right now I have to look for subtle or intangible evidence, like this one sister I know who doesn’t wear a habit and is always talking about women’s rights. That gives me clues about the Sisters of St. Mary of Namur, but I don’t want to condemn them all with the label “Oh, they’re a liberal order.”

Is there any place I can get real evidence (exmple: “The Passionists support the use of the enneagram, while Rome condemns it”) and compasionate guidance?

I think you need to make a distinction between individuals who are members of orders/religious communities, and the actual orders/religious communities.

The best way is for you to visit with and to get to know an order/religious community and its members that you will be living with.

All orders/religious communities that are part of the Catholic Church are faithful followers of the magisterium. Individual members are like everyone else, we are all sinners and fall short in some way.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Is there some sort of non-biased resource I can check out that will help me find out which religious orders in the U.S. are more traditional, and orthodox and which not?

For example: I hear rumors that Maryknoll and Jesuits tend to be more socially liberal and attract people who don’t always agree with the vatican; while Dominicans, Cisctercians, and Fransiscans are more traditional and in line with church teaching. But I guess it is all in perspective, since an SSPX or Legionary of Christ person would probably consider Fransiscans too “liberal.”

Right now I have to look for subtle or intangible evidence, like this one sister I know who doesn’t wear a habit and is always talking about women’s rights. That gives me clues about the Sisters of St. Mary of Namur, but I don’t want to condemn them all with the label “Oh, they’re a liberal order.”

Is there any place I can get real evidence (exmple: “The Passionists support the use of the enneagram, while Rome condemns it”) and compasionate guidance?

You have to remember that not all religious orders fall into the distinction you are making. Like the Dominicans and the Franciscans, for one. There are always going to be orders that think they must change the spirituality a little bit, and all of them have different missions.

I read the Adrian Dominican Sisters’ website last night, and about choked. They belong to the Catholic Church, but their ideas are much too liberal, for me. They aren’t habited, and one of their main focuses is feminism.

However, the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur had a wonderful sister that came to our parish that was non-habited. I decided to give her a chance and found out that she was dedicated to serve of the poor.

The thing I would recommend is, if you have qualms about an order in particular, call the diocese they are in. Usually all dioceses keep a list of religious orders within them. If they are not on the list, they aren’t approved, which is also true for the new orders. Like the Sisters of Mary, Mother of Israel’s Hope. Rosalind Moss has to wait a period of time before her order is officially approved.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It is important to note that habits are not part of the spirituality of every religious community/order.

In pre-vatican II days Rome mandated habits for some that did not have a habit to begin with.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

It is important to note that habits are not part of the spirituality of every religious community/order.

In pre-vatican II days Rome mandated habits for some that did not have a habit to begin with.

Yes, I realize this. But, habits, for me, are a requirement.

 

[Shlomey]

Looking for tradition?

Carthusians!

I’m going with the Dominicans Veritas ftw!

 

[margya]

As I spent twelve years schools(grammer and high school) run by the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur , I saw the changes they went through from a full habit to no habit. They have gone to the liberal side of things over the years.

 

[1234]

Is there some sort of non-biased resource I can check out that will help me find out which religious orders in the U.S. are more traditional, and orthodox and which not?

For example: I hear rumors that Maryknoll and Jesuits tend to be more socially liberal and attract people who don’t always agree with the Vatican; while Dominicans, Cistercians, and Franciscans are more traditional and in line with church teaching. But I guess it is all in perspective, since an SSPX or Legionary of Christ person would probably consider Franciscans too “liberal.”

Right now I have to look for subtle or intangible evidence, like this one sister I know who doesn’t wear a habit and is always talking about women’s rights. That gives me clues about the Sisters of St. Mary of Namur, but I don’t want to condemn them all with the label “Oh, they’re a liberal order.”

Is there any place I can get real evidence (example: “The Passionists support the use of the enneagram, while Rome condemns it”) and compassionate guidance?

The enneagram is a personality-typing device similar to the Myers-Briggs. There’s nothing religious about it and no reason for “Rome to condemn it”. I think that religious especially were interested in it when they were updating their rules and wanted to find out more about their own personalities.

I find that people tend to condemn things they don’t understand. don’t jump to conclusions.

If you’re worried, then ask. Also, orders wearing habits tend to be (somewhat) more conservative. It depends on the order.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

The enneagram is a personality-typing device similar to the Myers-Briggs. There’s nothing religious about it and no reason for “Rome to condemn it”. I think that religious especially were interested in it when they were updating their rules and wanted to find out more about their own personalities.

I find that people tend to condemn things they don’t understand. don’t jump to conclusions.

If you’re worried, then ask. Also, orders wearing habits tend to be (somewhat) more conservative. It depends on the order.

Even if we, as faulty human beings, say there is nothing wrong with the enneagram, we must not rely on what our feelings tell us. If Rome says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. Remember what Jesus said to Peter:

“Upon this rock, I will build my Church. I give you the Keys of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.”–Matthew 16:19-20

St. Peter was the first Pope in the history of the Church. The current Pope, Benedict XVI, holds his power because there is a direct line of apostolic succession. What Jesus said to Peter is given unto the Pope of this age, too. Therefore, if the Pope said we must not use the enneagram, we must believe it.

 

[1234]

Even if we, as faulty human beings, say there is nothing wrong with the enneagram, we must not rely on what our feelings tell us. If Rome says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. Remember what Jesus said to Peter:

“Upon this rock, I will build my Church. I give you the Keys of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.”–Matthew 16:19-20

St. Peter was the first Pope in the history of the Church. The current Pope, Benedict XVI, holds his power because there is a direct line of apostolic succession. What Jesus said to Peter is given unto the Pope of this age, too. Therefore, if the Pope said we must not use the enneagram, we must believe it.

I searched Google in vain for evidence that *any pope has condemned the enneagram. It apparently has --gasp!–Sufi origins which, of course, Catholics who find anything not Catholic suspicious, would find suspicious. * I strongly suspect that the enneagram is used in the US the way that yoga is used; yoga is an ancient mind-body system based in India, where it has very advanced practitioners who are not Christians. In the US, it’s used to get in shape. In the US, the enneagram, is used as a sort of shorthand to understand one’s personality type. Some sisters who specialize in retreats use it to help people find out who they are and what they’re good at, similar to the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory.

If you’re looking at a religious order, and you find anything you don’t understand suspicious, then avoid the enneagram-offering orders. You could also ask them about it. Discerning women who are nervous about enneagrams and yoga should probably choose a conservative, habited order.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

I searched Google in vain for evidence that *any pope has condemned the enneagram. It apparently has --gasp!–Sufi origins which, of course, Catholics who find anything not Catholic suspicious, would find suspicious. * I strongly suspect that the enneagram is used in the US the way that yoga is used; yoga is an ancient mind-body system based in India, where it has very advanced practitioners who are not Christians. In the US, it’s used to get in shape. In the US, the enneagram, is used as a sort of shorthand to understand one’s personality type. Some sisters who specialize in retreats use it to help people find out who they are and what they’re good at, similar to the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory.

If you’re looking at a religious order, and you find anything you don’t understand suspicious, then avoid the enneagram-offering orders. You could also ask them about it. Discerning women who are nervous about enneagrams and yoga should probably choose a conservative, habited order.

I do know what the enneagram is. It seems you think that just because I choose to steer clear of it that I don’t know what it is? I think that you don’t understand me. In fact, I am sure of it.

I appreciate that you wanted to inform me of what it was, but the fact remains that I am against it. And there’s nothing that will change that.

It is a New Age tool, and Catholic conservatives know better than to toy with New Age. So, even if you “think” that no Pope has specifically condemned the enneagram, think again. Just because it wasn’t on a list, New Age stuff is specifically condemned. Try looking that up. Or, if you like, I could give you a quote from the Catechism.

Here’s a quote from a website:

Essentially the Enneagram is an occult and Gnostic pagan self-centered system.

More and more frequently the Enneagram is sold as a " modern psychological method" to make one “more effective in dealing with others.” The “spiritual” connection is downplayed and the secular “business value” is emphasized. With modern “scientific” principles espoused, who could argue with wanting “self-improvement?”

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Here’s another quote if anyone is in need of more convincing that it is AGAINST Catholic teaching:

Compatibility with Catholicism

Authentic Catholic study of self is rooted in becoming holy, that is conforming as best as possible to Jesus Christ our Savior. While the Enneagram focuses on “self-improvement” via human understanding, the Catholic focuses on his or her littleness, weakness and total dependence on God’s Grace. Catholic “self-improvement” means “intimate union with Christ” - the more in union we are with Him the more holy we are. In other words, dying to self, decreasing so that God may increase within us. The support and action of God via His Grace is totally missing from the Enneagram. Great spiritual works by St. John of the Cross (Ascent of Mt. Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul) emphasize properly the top place that God has in our “self-improvement” towards holiness. The Enneagram is totally self-centered - that is based on pure human ego. As with other dissenter systems, holiness is also completely absent from the Enneagram, which instead focuses on ego and compulsions. Also noticeably absent is the need for the Sacraments of the Church on the path to holiness. The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly tells us:

CCC #2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity." [Lumen Gentium 40 ß 2] All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." [Mt 5:48]

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that ... doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints. [Lumen Gentium 40 ß 2]

CCC #2014  Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

 

[simon_op]

Not a voice in discussion, just an idea:
Communities are usually united in different assemblies or chapters, and then you can easily say who is who.
For example, this is the website of very traditional and faithful to the Church’s teaching Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious.
cmswr.org/
You will not find here liberal congregations. They have another gatherings.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Not a voice in discussion, just an idea:
Communities are usually united in different assemblies or chapters, and then you can easily say who is who.
For example, this is the website of very traditional and faithful to the Church’s teaching Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious.
cmswr.org/
You will not find here liberal congregations. They have another gatherings.

I love the CMSWR website. Very good idea!

 

[CathPhilosopher]

The enneagram is a personality-typing device similar to the Myers-Briggs. There’s nothing religious about it and no reason for “Rome to condemn it”. I think that religious especially were interested in it when they were updating their rules and wanted to find out more about their own personalities.

From the document of the Pontifical Council for interreligious dialogue, on “New Age”

Gnosticism never completely abandoned the realm of Christianity. Instead, it has always existed side by side with Christianity, sometimes taking the shape of a philosophical movement, but more often assuming the characteristics of a religion or a para-religion in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian”.(6) An example of this can be seen in the enneagram, the nine-type tool for character analysis, which when used as a means of spiritual growth introduces an ambiguity in the doctrine and the life of the Christian faith.

 

[Kathgirl]

Here’s another quote if anyone is in need of more convincing that it is AGAINST Catholic teaching:

Thank you CarmeliteGirl for this amazing clarity. As usual you are right there and I love yr. posts!!!
Kathgirl

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Thank you CarmeliteGirl for this amazing clarity. As usual you are right there and I love yr. posts!!!
Kathgirl

God bless you, Kathgirl.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

From the document of the Pontifical Council for interreligious dialogue, on “New Age”

Gnosticism never completely abandoned the realm of Christianity. Instead, it has always existed side by side with Christianity, sometimes taking the shape of a philosophical movement, but more often assuming the characteristics of a religion or a para-religion in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian”.(6) An example of this can be seen in the enneagram, the nine-type tool for character analysis, which when used as a means of spiritual growth introduces an ambiguity in the doctrine and the life of the Christian faith.

I think this needs to be read in context. It says (bold emphasis added);

An example of this can be seen in the enneagram, the nine-type tool for character analysis, which when used as a means of spiritual growth introduces an ambiguity in the doctrine and the life of the Christian faith.

So when we read this fully and in context we see that the Church is only against the use of the enneagram when it is used as a “means of spiritual growth”.

The only use I have seen in my religious life is as a personality tool and reference, like the myers briggs personality test. Never have I seen it used as a spiritual growth tool.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Here’s another quote if anyone is in need of more convincing that it is AGAINST Catholic teaching:

Compatibility with Catholicism

Seems that your quote here goes against any attempt at personal growth by using psychology or any other method other than prayer.

I think this is a stretch of what these documents are saying to cover what ever the original author of this document you are posting is trying to “prove”.

I know that John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila are not against growing in self-knowledge.

In my experience, my greatest spiritual growth came right after some great personal growth gained though a greater understanding of myself which was achieved outside of the spiritual realm.

I think some of this is an over simplification and romanticization of what the spiritual life is.

I fear that some out there have unrealistic expectations of what the spiritual life is and will be greatly disappointed when they do not get what they are expecting.

 

[CathPhilosopher]

I think this needs to be read in context.

When we read this fully and in context we see that the Church is only against the use of the enneagram when it is used as a “means of spiritual growth”.

The only use I have seen in my religious life is as a personality tool and reference, like the myers briggs personality test. Never have I seen it used as a spiritual growth tool.

This context was of course included in the original quote. One might guess that this use of the enneagram would not have been mentioned unless there were some who used it that way. And I have seen it proposed as a means of spiritual growth and enlightenment.