How can I find out if a religious order is liberal?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This context was of course included in the original quote. One might guess that this use of the enneagram would not have been mentioned unless there were some who used it that way. And I have seen it proposed as a means of spiritual growth and enlightenment.

Which may be true, I have not seen it used that way as of yet.

But that does not mean that its use as in personal growth is condemned in any way.

The reason I brought up context is that sometimes people read into documents something more than what is there.

The selection posted does contain the original context yet some people still choose to read into it that the enneagram is condemned wholly by the Church, which it is not, it is only condemned when used for spiritual growth.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Easy-if the order’s increasing it’s orthodox. If it’s dieing out it’s liberal.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Seems that your quote here goes against any attempt at personal growth by using psychology or any other method other than prayer.

I think this is a stretch of what these documents are saying to cover what ever the original author of this document you are posting is trying to “prove”.

I know that John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila are not against growing in self-knowledge.

In my experience, my greatest spiritual growth came right after some great personal growth gained though a greater understanding of myself which was achieved outside of the spiritual realm.

I think some of this is an over simplification and romanticization of what the spiritual life is.

I fear that some out there have unrealistic expectations of what the spiritual life is and will be greatly disappointed when they do not get what they are expecting.

I think you misread my post. I was not replying to the original poster, but poster named “1234” who claimed that the Church didn’t prohibit the use of the Enneagram at all. I was showing him it was prohibited for “spiritual growth.”

I have never seen it used for personality measurements, so I don’t know what it entails, but due to problems I’ve had in the past with getting mixed up in dangerous sorts, I’ve chosen to eliminate any contact I have with “New Age.” Those who are able to handle it, and have the permission to do so, are probably better suited than I.

And, why is it that whenever I post something to refute an argument, someone thinks I have unrealistic expectations? I have very few expectations in religious life. I’m only going where God is leading me.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

BTW, I have used the Myers-Briggs test given by my school to calibrate my personality. I saw nothing wrong with it, and I learned a lot about myself. The Myers-Briggs has nothing to do with New Age, which the Enneagram does. Why not use the Myers-Briggs if they wanted to measure personality? I think, after reading about the Enneagram in personality measurements, the Myers-Briggs is easier to learn from. But that’s just my opinion…

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Easy-if the order’s increasing it’s orthodox. If it’s dieing out it’s liberal.

That’s not the case with all orders who are dying. There’s a few I was discerning with who were quite traditional, but they weren’t growing because all the nuns were much older and had entered long before the internet was even around. Therefore, they have no idea how to get vocations because they stick to the traditional way of word-of-mouth and through the diocese. These days, almost all young men and women are looking to the internet for discernment, which can be a good thing, but when you have orders that only have email access and no website, it’s hard to get vocations with today’s young people.

As I have mentioned before, all dioceses keep lists of the religious communities within their limits. I would check with them first before taking any other measures to find out if the order is liberal or not.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And, why is it that whenever I post something to refute an argument, someone thinks I have unrealistic expectations? I have very few expectations in religious life. I’m only going where God is leading me.

That part of my post was not directed at you explicitly, it was directed at everyone who comes here that is considering religious life in some form.

It seems lately that we have had people who seem to be overly concerned about dress or styles of worship rather then actual spiritual matters. Also there seems to be a lot of questions on “liberal” religious community/orders. Every religious order/order in the Catholic Church is in good standing with the Church otherwise it would not be a part of the Church.

Also, “liberal” is a political term and does not really fit spirituality. Many religious communities/orders call for some sort of change in the Church as part of their spirituality. Many times it is a radical shift. This individuals can take to a place that does not really fit but that is not the fault of the religious community/order.

BTW, I have used the Myers-Briggs test given by my school to calibrate my personality. I saw nothing wrong with it, and I learned a lot about myself. The Myers-Briggs has nothing to do with New Age, which the Enneagram does. Why not use the Myers-Briggs if they wanted to measure personality? I think, after reading about the Enneagram in personality measurements, the Myers-Briggs is easier to learn from. But that’s just my opinion…

Yes, I can see that but such is not the way others see it.

I see the use of many tools at once rather than relying on only one. The Myers-Briggs comes from Jungian psychology that when taken to extremes is also not good. Any tool can be abused and used in ways that are damaging spiritually.

 

[Teen4Christ]

Easy-if the order’s increasing it’s orthodox. If it’s dieing out it’s liberal.

I’m sure that can be true in some cases, but there are alot of liberal orders around that are doing quite well.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

That’s not the case with all orders who are dying. There’s a few I was discerning with who were quite traditional, but they weren’t growing because all the nuns were much older and had entered long before the internet was even around. Therefore, they have no idea how to get vocations because they stick to the traditional way of word-of-mouth and through the diocese. These days, almost all young men and women are looking to the internet for discernment, which can be a good thing, but when you have orders that only have email access and no website, it’s hard to get vocations with today’s young people.

As I have mentioned before, all dioceses keep lists of the religious communities within their limits. I would check with them first before taking any other measures to find out if the order is liberal or not.

No, I hear you. I was only being partly serious but there is some truth in that generalization. The orders that are growing do tend to be orthodox, but maybe orthodox AND computer literate.

 

[1234]

I think this needs to be read in context. It says (bold emphasis added);

So when we read this fully and in context we see that the Church is only against the use of the enneagram when it is used as a “means of spiritual growth”.

The only use I have seen in my religious life is as a personality tool and reference, like the myers briggs personality test. Never have I seen it used as a spiritual growth tool.

Thanks, Bro Byz.

I wasn’t able to find that the POPE condemned the enneagram. Apparently other conservative Catholics have.

Carm Girl, whom I know from Phatmass, is interested in a conservative habited order, which, I am sure, doesn’t practice, promote or use the enneagram in any way. Her discerning wouldn’t necessarily agree with the discerning of another individual.

Women discerners of religious life will find that there’s* quite* a spectrum of religious life out there. It’s pretty obvious which might just use the enneagram and which won’t. If the prospect of this disturbs a particular discerner , then that person shouldn’t discern with those orders.

It’s really very simple.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Here is a clue, when looking at orders and congregations. The habit is a good sign, but an even better sign is does the group genuinely practice poverty.

The OP mentioned various orders which I address below, plus a few others that I am familiar with.

Jesuits cover the entire spectrum from way conservative to way way liberal.

Dominican sisters and nuns also cover the entire spectrum, from the Adrien Dominicans who plan to take over the Church by educating the future priests (I kid you not) to the Springfield and Nashville Dominicans who remain in habit and loyal to Rome, to the cloistered Dominicans in Michigan whose charism is prayer. Franciscans also cover the field from the cloistered Poor Clares (never to speak except to pray) to the more liberal.

Avoid the Holy Cross sisters and the Resurrection sisters. Back in the mid-80’s the Resurrection sisters still wore a modified habit, but now it is sister’s choice habit or no habit. The Chicago province of the Sisters of the Resurrection hasn’t had a sister take final vows for 30 years now, which should tell you something. And as far as I can tell, the other provinces don’t seem to be doing any better. My cousin is a Holy Cross sister and they have no respect for the Holy Father.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Here is a clue, when looking at orders and congregations. The habit is a good sign, but an even better sign is does the group genuinely practice poverty.

I do not think there is any general rule one can follow.

The biggest clue is how you feel after having met the members of the religious community/order personally. Do not take others impressions on this.

Please tell us how a group “genuinely practices poverty” when depending on the charism of the group the practice of poverty might be totally different.

Again, the best thing a person can do is to meet with a group and form their own opinion but also to realize that said opinion really only applies to their own discernment process and does not necessarily apply to others.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Thanks, Bro Byz.

I wasn’t able to find that the POPE condemned the enneagram. Apparently other conservative Catholics have.

Carm Girl, whom I know from Phatmass, is interested in a conservative habited order, which, I am sure, doesn’t practice, promote or use the enneagram in any way. Her discerning wouldn’t necessarily agree with the discerning of another individual.

Women discerners of religious life will find that there’s* quite* a spectrum of religious life out there. It’s pretty obvious which might just use the enneagram and which won’t. If the prospect of this disturbs a particular discerner , then that person shouldn’t discern with those orders.

It’s really very simple.

I want to let you know that I try to keep my eyes and ears open, as well as my mind, but I have had problems in the past by letting things get too dangerous. I left the Church for a while, and found myself lost. I just didn’t understand my faith as I should have, and I came back after going on a retreat that my mom suggested. I did some very intensive reading on the faith before I made any decisions to pursue my call to religious life after hearing God speak on retreat. I studied Apologetic books and found myself EXTREMELY interested in learning more. I love my faith completely and I wouldn’t risk giving it up again for anything.

You are right that my discernment wouldn’t match anyone else. God calls each one of us differently and if I responded the same way someone else did, I wouldn’t be happy. I am really trying to tune in to the Holy Spirit and follow where He is calling me.

I think I have accidentally hijacked this thread, but I am happy with the points I have tried to make, and I pray that God is pleased with me. I admit that I am still learning, so if what I said was not true, please forgive me. I am retiring from this thread. I hope “avon712” finds the answer they are looking for. God bless all of you, and may you have a very good year.

BTW, “1234”, I know only the Catholics posting on Phatmass. It says on your profile here that you are “UU”?? “Unitarian Universalist”, I’m assuming? What is your screename on PM?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The biggest clue is how you feel after having met the members of the religious community/order personally. Do not take others impressions on this.

ByzCath:

Even how you feel after meeting and living with the community for a few years is no firm indicator. I lived with the Sisters of the Resurrection for six months, nearly twenty years later another woman I know lived with them for over 4 years. We were both surprised when (two decades apart) we were both put out. I had always thought it was just me, until seeing this other woman put out I learned otherwise.

Please tell us how a group “genuinely practices poverty” when depending on the charism of the group the practice of poverty might be totally different.

The Discalced Carmelites practice poverty by living entirely on the charity of others. Even when they are in desparate need they are forbidden to ask for something, only to pray and leave it in God’s hands.

The Adrien Dominicans often live singly in apartments, wear jewelry and make up, and moderately expensive clothes. The Adrien Dominicans are professional women and administrators so naturally they have to dress appropriately to the practice of their charism, but does that include make up and jewelry?

These two groups will certainly practice poverty differently as you say, but even so it is easy to tell which or both groups are practicing genuine poverty.

Marsha

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Discalced Carmelites practice poverty by living entirely on the charity of others. Even when they are in desparate need they are forbidden to ask for something, only to pray and leave it in God’s hands.

This is one view of the Evangelical Counsel of poverty but it is not the only one so to call it “genuine” is no correct.

Also I do not know what Discalced Carmelites you speak of as the Disclaced Carmlites I know teach at universities and seminaries as well as work with the Carmelite Institute so they recieve a salary and other OCD monasteries that sell goods.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Also I do not know what Discalced Carmelites you speak of as the Disclaced Carmlites I know teach at universities and seminaries as well as work with the Carmelite Institute so they recieve a salary and other OCD monasteries that sell goods.

That astonishes me beyond all measure. All the Discalced Carmelites I have ever heard of never leave the cloister. The portress is behind a veiled grill, and they are never seen. Once they enter they never leave with the possible exceptions of founding a new Carmel and maybe the hospital. Of course, these are nuns, perhaps the ones you are speaking of are men?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That astonishes me beyond all measure. All the Discalced Carmelites I have ever heard of never leave the cloister. The portress is behind a veiled grill, and they are never seen. Once they enter they never leave with the possible exceptions of founding a new Carmel and maybe the hospital. Of course, these are nuns, perhaps the ones you are speaking of are men?

I think I see some of the issues here in our discussion. You can not just say Discalced Carmelties and expect us to understand that you are speaking of Discalced Carmelite nuns.

But having said that, not all Discalced Carmelite nuns have a strict enclosure and some of them make money by producing and selling goods.

 

[1234]

I do not think there is any general rule one can follow.

The biggest clue is how you feel after having met the members of the religious community/order personally. Do not take others impressions on this.

Please tell us how a group “genuinely practices poverty” when depending on the charism of the group the practice of poverty might be totally different.

Again, the best thing a person can do is to meet with a group and form their own opinion but also to realize that said opinion really only applies to their own discernment process and does not necessarily apply to others.

Hear, hear, Byz!

Always happy for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[1234]

ByzCath:

(excerpt):

The Discalced Carmelites practice poverty by living entirely on the charity of others. Even when they are in desperate need they are forbidden to ask for something, only to pray and leave it in God’s hands.

The Adrian Dominicans often live singly in apartments, wear jewelry and make up, and moderately expensive clothes. The Adrien Dominicans are professional women and administrators so naturally they have to dress appropriately to the practice of their charism, but does that include make up and jewelry?

These two groups will certainly practice poverty differently as you say, but even so it is easy to tell which or both groups are practicing genuine poverty. (emphasis mine).

Marsha

I don’t think it’s easy.

Religious who live in the world are on a strict budget and have to stay within it–and at the same time, have to dress appropriate according to their charism. So if they’re administrating large health care institutions or colleges, say, they have to look respectable, not like bag ladies, which many Catholics accuse sisters of looking like (pardon the syntax). It’s much harder to dress appropriately, including makeup and simple jewelry one a strict budget than to live in a monastery where you don’t handle a single cent and make no decisions for yourself.

 

[1234]

Easy-if the order’s increasing it’s orthodox. If it’s dieing out it’s liberal.

Wrong. Many orders who at least wear habits aren’t increasing.

Many cloistered houses of the Discalced Carmelites and the Dominican nuns, for example, are in danger of closing, others have closed and others have merged or are merging–all in habits.

Check Guide to Religious Orders for the stats and the websites.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Wrong. Many orders who at least wear habits aren’t increasing.

Many cloistered houses of the Discalced Carmelites and the Dominican nuns, for example, are in danger of closing, others have closed and others have merged or are merging–all in habits.

Check Guide to Religious Orders for the stats and the websites.

Thanks.I hadn’t heard that.
My daughter was in a vocations discernment program & seemed to hear the opposite point of view.Perhaps it applies more to cloistered orders?