How can I fix liturgical abuses?

[Harpazo]

As too many parishes are filled with liturgical abuses in the post V II world, what can I do as a layman to stop some of it? I was recently received into the Church in April, so I feel somewhat out of place bringing these concerns, but I feel that they are absolutely necessary to be voiced.

Some of the most horrifying ones involve a Eucharistic Minister going into the Tabernacle (which is in a chapel on the side of the sanctuary )! The Sanctuary was recently built a few years ago after the old one became too small. I’ve picked up a few vibes from the parish council that they instituted a lot of the liberal reforms to the liturgy as our Parish Priest is Polish and it seems to me that they took advantage of him in the beginning.

I would like to see the tabernacle as soon as I walk in…it’s sad that I can’t.

Suggestions? Should I talk to whoever is in charge of the liturgy or the priest or just go straight to the Bishop?

Thanks in advance

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[catherine_m]

For liturgical abuses, I’d talk to the Priest first. If he doesn’t do anything about them, well then go to the Bishop. I would talk to the Priest first though incase he gets miffed that you went above his head without talking to him first.

 

[baltobetsy]

Wait awhile. Observe carefully. Ask questions in a friendly manner so you understand each situation thoroughly. Offer to help in some capacity. Only after you have established yourself as a friendly, helpful member of the parish can you even think about pointing out a problem. Otherwise you will be instantly labeled a crank and a troublemaker, and you will have no effect at all.

Betsy

 

[Harpazo]

Wait awhile. Observe carefully. Ask questions in a friendly manner so you understand each situation thoroughly. Offer to help in some capacity. Only after you have established yourself as a friendly, helpful member of the parish can you even think about pointing out a problem. Otherwise you will be instantly labeled a crank and a troublemaker, and you will have no effect at all.

Betsy

I understand what you’re saying, but I’ve been waiting this out since September when I first realized what was really going on. Thanks to EWTN radio on Fridays (Collin Donavan), I have some sense of what the liturgy is supposed to be. But I agree with you about the other part of me possibly being labeled a troublemaker.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[puzzleannie]

AsSome of the most horrifying ones involve a Eucharistic Minister going into the Tabernacle (which is in a chapel on the side of the sanctuary ?

Thanks in advance

In Pax Christi
Andrew

neither of these is a liturgical abuse.
the tabernacle can be placed in a side chapel if there is a good pastor reason for so doing, such as to make the chapel available for adoration without opening the whole building etc.
A layperson even a lay woman may in certain circumstances replace the ciborium or remove hosts, such as for distribution to the sick, or even in a communion service in the absence of a priest or deacon. The circumstances are strictly regulated, but by itself this is not an abuse.

A true liturgical abuse involves the matter and form of the sacraments themselves, particular of course the Eucharist, and tampering with anything which would invalidate the sacrament, or which would make the celebration of the Mass or other sacrament illicit.

The liturgist of the parish is the pastor. If you have concerns they should be brought to his attention, first by way of a respectful question and reflect for clarification, perhaps noting, as you say, that you are a new Catholic and are still learning. If flagrant abuse continues, there is a protocol. go to the CUF website cuf.org and look at protocol for lay witness for how to proceed.

 

[baltobetsy]

But I agree with you about the other part of me possibly being labeled a troublemaker.

Andrew, check out this thread and see what happens to established people who complain in a way that the pastor finds offensive. You haven’t even been around for a whole year. Give it time, then make a suggestion to improve things without sounding horrified. See how that is received. A few months later, if things went well the first time, perhaps bring up another idea. And always use a positive tone - “Wouldn’t it be nice if we could…”

You don’t want to be “that nutcase who’s always complaining.” Every parish has one. Don’t be the one in your parish.

Betsy

 

[Cat]

Don’t concentrate on seeking out abuses. Instead, concentrate on all that is pure and good in your Church.

Why not talk to your RCIA sponsor and ask their opinion as to whether something is an “abuse?” Or to the RCIA teachers? If these people are not educated, perhaps you could seek out a layman that you respect and admire for their “fruitful” Christian life. Ask them to advise you about the liturgical correctness of things in your church.

From what others are posting here, it sounds like you might have some misconceptions about liturgical abuses. Ask people who have been around longer and have studied longer.

I would suggest getting a copy of Imitation of Christ and studying it.

Also, read about Teresa of Avila and all that she suffered without any complaint. St. John of the Cross is another good saint to read about. Both of these saints worked hard to purify the Church, but they did it with respect and love. I hope to be like them.

Finally, I would suggest that you avoid the Traditionalist Section of CAF. Many of those people seem to be Abuse Detectives and often seem to forget about charity and respect in their attempts to prove that something is abuse. Leave them in peace.

 

[John_Lilburne]

…the tabernacle can be placed in a side chapel if there is a good pastor reason for so doing, such as to make the chapel available for adoration without opening the whole building etc. …

Harpazo wrote: “I would like to see the tabernacle as soon as I walk in…it’s sad that I can’t.”
According to Pope Benedict in the 2007 Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis:
“69. In considering the importance of eucharistic reservation and adoration, and reverence for the sacrament of Christ’s sacrifice, the Synod of Bishops also discussed the question of the proper placement of the tabernacle in our churches. (196) The correct positioning of the tabernacle contributes to the recognition of Christ’s real presence in the Blessed Sacrament. Therefore, the place where the eucharistic species are reserved, marked by a sanctuary lamp, should be readily visible to everyone entering the church. …”. The paragraph ends “In any event, final judgment on these matters belongs to the Diocesan Bishop.”

So I think it is reasonable to write to the bishop drawing his attention to this situation. The 2007 document is recent. The responsibility for the decision on tabernacle’s position is the bishop’s, in a special way.

Certainly there is no requirement to report it to the parish priest first. As it has in the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.”

Regarding a lay person going to the tabernacle, I am not aware of any instruction in the liturgical books, for a normal Mass, that is breached by this. The Code of Canon Law has in canon 938 §5: “The person in charge of a church or oratory is to see to it that the key of the tabernacle in which the blessed Eucharist is reserved, is in maximum safe keeping.” Normally this would mean a priest, but not always.

For the Stational Mass of the Diocesan Bishop, in the Ceremonial of Bishops, n. 165 it has: “Another deacon or one of the concelebrants takes any remaining consecrated particles to the tabernacle, then at a side table cleanses the paten or ciborium over the cup before the cup is cleansed.” (Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 60). So it a lay person did it at this Mass it would be breach of the liturgical book, it would be a liturgical abuse. But there is no similar instruction for a normal Mass, in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

As too many parishes are filled with liturgical abuses in the post V II world, what can I do as a layman to stop some of it? I was recently received into the Church in April, so I feel somewhat out of place bringing these concerns, but I feel that they are absolutely necessary to be voiced.

Some of the most horrifying ones involve a Eucharistic Minister going into the Tabernacle (which is in a chapel on the side of the sanctuary )! The Sanctuary was recently built a few years ago after the old one became too small. I’ve picked up a few vibes from the parish council that they instituted a lot of the liberal reforms to the liturgy as our Parish Priest is Polish and it seems to me that they took advantage of him in the beginning.

I would like to see the tabernacle as soon as I walk in…it’s sad that I can’t.

Suggestions? Should I talk to whoever is in charge of the liturgy or the priest or just go straight to the Bishop?

Thanks in advance

In Pax Christi
Andrew

Talk with your pastor first. Some of what you are saying, is not liturgical abuse, but poor info that you’re probably getting from this forum.

Your pastor and Bishop don’t operate in a vacuum. They actually talk with each other and discus such matters. There is probably no abuse at all and respect for your pastor comes before any action you should take.

Jim

 

[chicago]

The real answer to “How can I fix liturgical abuses” is “Probably, you can’t.” Now, if you can manage to find your way into a position of power and influence, well maybe there is something you can do to fix things. But, most likely, that isn’t going to be easily forthcoming. Further, if you come in like gangbusters hoping to “change” things, it will likely upset the apple cart.

Now, could you mention your interest in liturgy to the pastor and ask if you might somehow be able to help in an appropriate way? Sure. Perhaps they’d even be willing to have you on as part of the liturgy committee which plans things. But, even there, your role initially would be listening and learning how things function (for right or wrong) and why, as well as understanding the human dynamic and reasoning of those involved.

I agree with an earlier statement, therefore, that your best bet is to try to tolerate any difficulties which you might presently have while recognizing what is and what is not a true abuse, as well as appreciating the relative seriousness and what battles ought to be fought while others might need to be allowed to pass.

In the interim what you can do is try to foster a proper devotion and understanding of things among your fellow parishioners. The more they know and desire what is the will of the Church, the more likely there will be a true demand for things to change for the better in time. Ultimately, short of a pastor or liturgy director who wants to make it a priority to take the bull by the horns, that is how matters will improve.

Also, try not to make the perfect the enemy of the good. There may be lots of alternative available and understandable reasonings behind them all. Often, one will be offerred as a justification for why something is done a certain way. And, though it may not be what you would prefer or, possibly, withing the present guidelines, there may well be some truth behind it which is worth coming to appreciate and value. For if you can show that you are able to do this, perhaps someone will be open to listening to and appreciating what you have to offer as an alternative, too.

 

[Kevin42]

Dont expect anything immediately. I find in these situations you can be much more effective if you start with small suggestions, and compromises…slowly moving the other person in a different direction. If you help someone slowly move the way that they think, they are much less defensive.

 

[chicago]

Dont expect anything immediately. I find in these situations you can be much more effective if you start with small suggestions, and compromises…slowly moving the other person in a different direction. If you help someone slowly move the way that they think, they are much less defensive.

Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.

 

[Kevin42]

Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.

The key is to have them think that part of it is their idea.

Now I feel like I sound all manipulative now…shame on me .

 

[Genesis315]

Pray and do penance for those who have control over matters liturgical. Always approach them filled with the fire of charity and humility, and in all mildness. Bitterness and harshness will destroy your cause. And have patience , bear whatever adversities you have to. Also, pray before the Blessed Sacrament and make reparations for any irreverence or sacriliges you or others have been guilt of (we should all do this anyway, even if our liturgies are celebrated perfectly according to the rubrics ).

And remember these words of St. Pius X: “It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.”

 

[andre]

I have something to ask, I hope I can ask it on this thread, I gave up on trying to find a thread about my question. So that’s why.

My homeparish has many liturgical abuses, I decided not to confront the priest with it and am attending Mass in an other Parish.
But occasionally I go to my homeparish. When I do, I don’t participate in the illicit things in the Liturgy, like the Priests invite the congregation to join in saying parts of the Eucharistic Prayer.

I don’t join in with this, I don’t intinc myself but show reverence to the Chalice with the Blood of Christ. I hope I don’t seem to demonstratively protest silently.
Should I join with the Eucharistic Prayer when invited by one of the priests?

I stopped being a Eucharistic Minister and lector because of this, and prior to leaving to a different parish.

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[rwoehmke]

I have something to ask, I hope I can ask it on this thread, I gave up on trying to find a thread about my question. So that’s why.

My homeparish has many liturgical abuses, I decided not to confront the priest with it and am attending Mass in an other Parish.
But occasionally I go to my homeparish. When I do, I don’t participate in the illicit things in the Liturgy, like the Priests invite the congregation to join in saying parts of the Eucharistic Prayer.

I don’t join in with this, I don’t intinc myself but show reverence to the Chalice with the Blood of Christ. I hope I don’t seem to demonstratively protest silently.
Should I join with the Eucharistic Prayer when invited by one of the priests?

I stopped being a Eucharistic Minister and lector because of this, and prior to leaving to a different parish.

Thanks,

Andrew

Don’t join in even if invited. Don’t do your own intinction.(dipping the host into the chalice)…

 

[benedictgal]

neither of these is a liturgical abuse.
the tabernacle can be placed in a side chapel if there is a good pastor reason for so doing, such as to make the chapel available for adoration without opening the whole building etc.
A layperson even a lay woman may in certain circumstances replace the ciborium or remove hosts, such as for distribution to the sick, or even in a communion service in the absence of a priest or deacon. The circumstances are strictly regulated, but by itself this is not an abuse.

A true liturgical abuse involves the matter and form of the sacraments themselves, particular of course the Eucharist, and tampering with anything which would invalidate the sacrament, or which would make the celebration of the Mass or other sacrament illicit.

The liturgist of the parish is the pastor. If you have concerns they should be brought to his attention, first by way of a respectful question and reflect for clarification, perhaps noting, as you say, that you are a new Catholic and are still learning. If flagrant abuse continues, there is a protocol. go to the CUF website cuf.org and look at protocol for lay witness for how to proceed.

Now, I do agree with you to a certain extent regarding who may approach the Tabernacle. If the Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion (by the way, for clarification purposes, only the deacon, priest and bishop are the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion) approaches the Tabernacle after Mass for the purpose of placing hosts into the pyx for distribution to the elderly, infirmed and homebound, that is allowable.

However, during the Mass, only the deacon, priest and/or bishop is allowed to approach the Tabernacle in order to remove the ciborium. Furthermore, the EMHC’s can only approach the altar to receive Holy Communion after the priest/bishop and deacon have communicated. Nor can EMHC’s purify the sacred vessels. That indult (permission) was rescinded by Pope Benedict XVI last year. Only the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion can purify the vessels.

As far as intinction is concerned, Andre, here is what Francis Cardinal Arinze (the cardinal prefect in charge of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) said about the subject (he’s pretty much the chief liturgical steward - after the Holy Father):

One thing I’ve seen before [is] where they have the ciborium out, and people come up and take our Precious Lord out of there and dip our Lord into the Precious Blood and place it on their own tongue themselves.

Forbidden. Not correct. Because the nature of the Holy Eucharist is such that the person who is not a priest celebrating the Mass must be given the Body of Christ. You say “amen”. And you receive, on the tongue or in the hand. If you are not the priests celebrating Mass – if you are the deacon assisting – you must be given [Communion]. You may not take.

Even if you are bishop or cardinal, and you are not celebrating that Mass, you must be given. You must not take.

For example, if you watch us in Rome in St. Peter’s basilica or square, when the pope is saying a major Mass, there may be 40 cardinals, 100 bishops. When we are not concelebrating – we are wearing red vestments but we are not concelebrating – we are just assisting at Mass as all of you who are baptized. When it is time for Communion, we receive, exactly as everybody else. A deacon comes to us and says “the Body of Christ”. I say “amen”. He gives to me, and the same for all.

None of us is allowed to take. We must be given. This is the Church law. It is not to lower anybody, it is just the nature of the sacrament. Even when Christ multiplied bread and fish, He told the apostles to distribute it. It was a sign.

So the Church that regulates Eucharistic practice says that the holy Body and Blood of Christ will be given us. We will not take. Only the celebrating priests or the concelebrating communicate themselves. Everybody else must be given it, even if that person is a bishop or a priest.

This quote comes from a Q and A session that was posted in Adoremus.

I hope this helps.

 

[benedictgal]

Now, regarding the location of the Tabernacle, Cardinal Arinze has this to say (also taken from the same Q & A session published in Adoremus):

Why do so many churches not place the tabernacle in the center of the altar or in a prominent place?

The directives from Rome – including the new Missal issued two years ago – say that the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved is to be located in a very prominent place either at the center or at such a side altar that it is really prominent and that around it there are kneelers and chairs so that people can pray – kneel down or sit down. And it is to be so prominent that nobody should need to look for it when you enter the church.

Therefore, whenever you enter a church and you look for the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and you do not easily see it, then those who arrange it are already wrong. Because it should be prominent – it should stand out – to show our faith.

However, it is not a law that it must be at the center. But it is a law that where it is should be prominent. And that it should be easy for people to see it and to go there and pray. But unfortunately in some churches, sometimes those who did it did not know. But they did not know that they did not know.

So you enter the church and you ask where is the tabernacle? “They have taken the Lord away and we do not know where they have put Him”. That’s what Mary Magdalene said on Easter day.

I hope that this helps. Now, at St. Peter’s in Vatican City, the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in its own Chapel. There are many side altars where priests can celebrate Mass, but there is a huge chapel reserved strictly for adoration. I don’t know how to post pictures yet, but there are some available online.

Now, having posted Cardinal Arinze’s quote, there is one time when the Blessed Sacrament may be removed to another location. That is on Holy Thursday. During the procession, the Blessed Sacrament is moved to an altar of repose which is located from the sanctuary. The Blessed Sacrament is not to be venerated in a monstrance (exposed). The Sacred Species is to be kept in that altar of repose so that the faithful may pray. So, if you see that Jesus is not where He normally should be during Triduum, that’s not an abuse. It’s the norm from Holy Thursday up through the Easter Vigil, when, after Communion, the celebrant or deacon replaces the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle.

 

[benedictgal]

I have something to ask, I hope I can ask it on this thread, I gave up on trying to find a thread about my question. So that’s why.

My homeparish has many liturgical abuses, I decided not to confront the priest with it and am attending Mass in an other Parish.
But occasionally I go to my homeparish. When I do, I don’t participate in the illicit things in the Liturgy, like the Priests invite the congregation to join in saying parts of the Eucharistic Prayer.

I don’t join in with this, I don’t intinc myself but show reverence to the Chalice with the Blood of Christ. I hope I don’t seem to demonstratively protest silently.
Should I join with the Eucharistic Prayer when invited by one of the priests?

I stopped being a Eucharistic Minister and lector because of this, and prior to leaving to a different parish.

Thanks,

Andrew

No one but the celebrant (and concelebrants) is allowed to recite the Eucharistic Prayer. This raises a very huge red flag in my eyes and should be reported to the bishop. You are right in noting that this is an ilicit practice. I am curious if the priest uses the correct form when he is reciting the Institution Narrative. He needs to say it excatly as it is written in the Sacramentary. He can’t deviate from it. To do so would invalidate the Mass.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.

Lol. It’s always important to make sure that someone else thinks that they thought of my idea first.