How can I prove that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin?

[kepha1]

reply to post 131, pg. 9

Why do you disrespect Mary so?

It’s a literary device called absurdum nauseum that reflects your disrespect and resistance to everyones efforts to explain who and what Mary is. The Scriptures were written long before the Church had time to develop her understanding of Mary and demanding verses for later development is unfair.

As long as you cling on to reformist methods of scripture interpretation and “bible alone” theory, you may never come to understand what we have been trying to tell you. We are not the creators of your stumbling blocks.

The concept of Mary having other children is blasphemous and unthinkable. It’s not me disrespecting Mary, but those who insist on sticking to 16th century Nominalism and this false doctrine that only doctrines that are spelled out in scriptures are acceptable. Please provide me with a verse that supports this doctrine of yours and I will retract.

There would be nothing sinful about Mary bearing children for her husband, Joseph.

Joseph would have been struck dead for thinking about it. (1 Chron. 13:9-10). As long as you deny the parallels of the Ark of the Covenant in both Testaments that are rather glaring. I see no point in repeating them. read this list scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II

Mary was already betrothed to Joseph before the angel announced God’s plan for her.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAD TO HAVE SEX. Mary was committed to the service of the Temple at a young age, and engagements of the Essenes is not the same as 21st century customs of today.

Are you suggesting God defile another man’s wife???

No, I am suggesting you claim another man would defile God’s “wife” as you put it.

God chose Mary to enter this world in human form.

check your grammar

Mary gave birth to a Person, not a half’n’Half. Watch you don’t expose your Nestorianism or my friends here might beat you with it.

God did not have sexual relations with a human woman.

Agreed. The Holy spirit came upon her.

That is a pagan idea. God chose Mary to enter this world in human form- just as all humans beings enter this world.

Agreed. Mary is a human.

Mary was already legally married to Joseph before the Holy Spirit came upon her. That makes Joseph the first husband.

That makes Joseph a necessary provider who had a very serious responsibility, and he was a JUST man who knew better. I doubt sex was the god there and then as it is here and now.

Once a couple is betrothed, the marriage is legal and binding.

That’s true, but the marriage could not have been consumated. In our culture, intimacy without sex is unthinkable because we live in a culture of death.

Mary was Joseph’s wife. God would not break His own commandment.

Mary was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Joseph was a just man. Mary and Joseph had to be married, but that does not necessitate sexual relations. Yes, Mary had an earthly husband, but she was also Spouse of the Holy Spirit. God didn’t break any commandments, and neither did Joseph.

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah…

"…MESSAGE TRUNCATED…

18 For the Lord had closed all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.

Is Sarah a type of queen?

Once you see the scriptural portrat of Mary as it was understood in the first 5 centuries of the Church, the Scriptures go off like fireworks… but if you are content just reading the package…so be it.

 

[Luke65]

Whoa, this caught me off guard. I’ve never heard this before. Where does this idea come from? Where is it obvious Mary took the vow you claim? And Joseph? Thanks for any clarification.

Did you see the passage quoted earlier? This one:

Numbers 30 (NIV)

3 "When a young woman still living in her father’s house makes a vow to the LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her.

6 “If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself 7 and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her, then her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand. 8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.”

---

Now in that context, Mary’s words make perfect sense: “How shall this be seeing a husband I do not know?” - but only if she had taken a vow of celibacy and Joseph had agreed. Because if Mary was about to be joined in a typical marriage with Joseph, why would she have even asked the question? Wouldn’t her first thought have been: “Joseph and I are going to be the parents of the Messiah!” But her response was nothing like that. And if she was only surprised because they weren’t married yet, then why didn’t she say: “seeing a husband I haven’t known yet”? She didn’t say that either, she said: “seeing a husband I do not know” - period - with no hint that she and Joseph were about to “know” each other. And the following scripture has also been quoted:

“If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better.” (1 Corinthians 7:36-38)

So, it is better not to marry, to remain a virgin so you can spend all your time devoted to the Kingdom of Heaven. And would God have anything but the best for the mother of His Son, and His “father”, and for His Son Himself?

And this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“Cardinal Cajetan wanted to understand the words: “because I know not man”, not of the future, but only of the past: up to this hour I do not know man. This manifest error, which contradicts the words of the text, has been universally rejected by all Catholic authors.”

 

[Vico]

diggerdomer, you ask where some of the ideas about Mary come from, specifically vow of virginity? They are tradition. To see the early expressions of tradition, see the writings of the early Church, like Ambrose, Athanasius, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria, Jerome, and also the history Protoevangelium.

From the Non-ecumenical Lateran Council in Rome for the Monothelite issue, held Oct. 649, DS 503: “If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary … and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.” Approved by Pope St. Martin I. Also Vatican II, LG No.12: “The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief.”

Much is lost by relying on the Bible alone. Yet, the Bible account in Luke 1:27 (Rheims) is: “To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.”

Back then, they were married a year before consumation, and usually married at age 13 for the wife.

And in Luke 1:34 (Rheims) Mary asks “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

So virgin Mary, wife of Joseph, does not know man, and does not know how she will become pregnant. That is consistent with having no expectation of pregnancy that would accompany a vow.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Hello everyone,

Hey friends my name is Jose and I would like to know how to prove to my friends that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin.  God Bless You All  :)

Juan love to be of service but unfortunately without knowing more about your friends I can proceed no further than wishful thinking.

It would be flippant of me to say conviction comes by the Holy Spirit (- so I won’t)

 

[bruno211]

Hello everyone,

Hey friends my name is Jose and I would like to know how to prove to my friends that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin.  God Bless You All  :)

 

[bruno211]

Mary the mother of Jesus could not be an eternal virgin. She bore a son (Jesus) and therefore was no longer a virgin.

bruno211

 

[bruno211]

diggerdomer, you ask where some of the ideas about Mary come from, specifically vow of virginity? They are tradition. To see the early expressions of tradition, see the writings of the early Church, like Ambrose, Athanasius, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria, Jerome, and also the history Protoevangelium.

From the Non-ecumenical Lateran Council in Rome for the Monothelite issue, held Oct. 649, DS 503: “If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary … and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.” Approved by Pope St. Martin I. Also Vatican II, LG No.12: “The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief.”

Much is lost by relying on the Bible alone. Yet, the Bible account in Luke 1:27 (Rheims) is: “To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.”

Back then, they were married a year before consumation, and usually married at age 13 for the wife.

And in Luke 1:34 (Rheims) Mary asks “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

So virgin Mary, wife of Joseph, does not know man, and does not know how she will become pregnant. That is consistent with having no expectation of pregnancy that would accompany a vow.

 

[bruno211]

There is no proof that the Apostle Peter was ever in Rome. He could not have been the been the first Pope. Peter went to Babalon and not Rome. When Peter died the Apostle John was still alive and if there was ever a Pope he would be in line to be the next Pope.
Only one Apostle was chosen after the death of Judas. No other Apostles were chosen for other aspostles that died.

Jesus had brothers and sisters and therefore Mary could not be an eternal virgin. It would be pure paganism to worship a human, Mary.

The Bible says not to go beyond that which is written. The Bible warns about following traditions.

The Church is not an organization and has no headquarters. Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news). He that believeth and is baptised (immersed in water) will be saved. He that believeth not will be damned.” One one obeys the gospel, the Lord adds you to his church.

brunro211

 

[elzermank]

You’re forgetting about the Annunciation. Take it from Our Lady’s lips herself. When the angel told her she was to conceive Mary replied “But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man”? Mary and Joseph were already betrothed and preparing to live together. Surely Mary would have naturally thought this was to come about once she’s married. But she knows it’s not, so she humbly asks the question. According to tradition (which is also a tenant of our faith) Mary and Joseph had made vows of chastity. Mary’s reply confirms this. Remember too that many of the infancy narratives in the bible must have come from Our Lady herself, to the disciples. Those details and understandings about the conditions of things at Our Lord’s conception have been passed down through the ages as our Tradition. It’s not heresay, it’s actual knowledge we have.

K.E.

 

[Griff77]

You’re forgetting about the Annunciation. Take it from Our Lady’s lips herself. When the angel told her she was to conceive Mary replied “But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man”? Mary and Joseph were already betrothed and preparing to live together. Surely Mary would have naturally thought this was to come about once she’s married. But she knows it’s not, so she humbly asks the question. According to tradition (which is also a tenant of our faith) Mary and Joseph had made vows of chastity. Mary’s reply confirms this. Remember too that many of the infancy narratives in the bible must have come from Our Lady herself, to the disciples. Those details and understandings about the conditions of things at Our Lord’s conception have been passed down through the ages as our Tradition. It’s not heresay, it’s actual knowledge we have.

K.E.

Probably the best answer so far, in my opinion.

It’s not merely the Roman rite, but also the Eastern Rite that believe in Mary’s perpetual Virginity. The original, Apostolic Church, having remained bound to, rather than separated from, received, ancient tradition, have preserved more of the faith than the Scripture that it gave the world. In its traditions are also preserved elements of the Faith that would have been passed mouth to ear, possibly for hundreds of years, and dating back to the apostles, before becoming doctrinal.

Anything believed with a ‘lack of scriptural evidence’ comes, I think, as a test of Faith in the movement of the Holy Spirit in the Church, whose authority is in turn evidenced in “on this rock I will build my Church” and the real evidence of the subsequent fruits of the Apostles - “one holy, catholic and apostolic church”.

If every aspect of Christian tradition and the movement of the Holy Spirit required incontravertible evidence, as Atheists demand, or Scriptural evidence, as Protestants demand, then there would be far less need for Faith. And then there would we be? Especially, ironically, if we were Protestant!

 

[angelaliverpool]

Juan,

The simple answer is that there is no Scripture that supports Mary having no other children. However, while there are Scriptures that suggest Mary may have had other children, there is no Scripture that positively confirms siblings.

So I ask you this, What difference does it make if Mary had other children with Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

It would not be a sin as they were legally married according to Jewish law.

It would not change who Jesus was nor deter his mission.

It would not change God not His sovereign nature.

So what difference does it make?

Exactly! I totally agree… Faith is different from a belief… I believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I don’t always believe in man made rules or how they are interpreted in different ways, by a diversity of people.

The trinity is the focus of my Faith, we are born we live and we die, that is the natural path to follow, so what we do in between that time is our choice, the freedom of choice that was given to us as Jesus our saviour and Lord died for our sins on the cross.

I am always questioning and the Catholic faith encourages this, as a healthy way of nurturing and affirming our faith.

I say so what **IF/**U]… it was not an immaculate conception? Mary the Mother of Jesus was so Holy a person to stand by her son as he walked that long Rd.!

So what IF… Mary had other children… they will have grown to be good people and with the spirit of the Lord always close at heart. Thats a good thing because Geneology of Abraham proves that Joseph was the chosen earthly Father to be… and is’nt it great to think that me or you or someone out there may have ancestoral roots of Jesus? Everyone I meet I look deeper than that person on the outside and see them as Jesus has taught us to with Love and passion.

So what IF… Jesus had many women? Who are we to judge and condem, havent we who don’t BELIEVE, already Judged! Yes the day we chose to crucify him was the day we Judged, I wasn’t there but where my ancestors? Would I have stopped them! No, but knowing what I know now, I would have died for my Lord!

For any man to have to walk the walk our Lord had to walk, would not have survived… so we must keep this in mind and say to our selves what a miricul it was for our Lord to survive and tell the man on his left and the man on his right they will be joining him to day in paradise! Thats the beginning and the end, the Alpha and omera…

Believe what you must, would be my answer to your friends… Its not about belief its about having Faith to help us believe!

I hope I haven’t dribbled on to much. I am just blessed by the Holy Spirit and feel my views are his… I love my Lord and My God with all my might and it is through that Love I am given strength.

Next time your out and about, it may be church, it may be with your mates, where ever you may be, look deeper at the situation and you’ll always find history repeated… for instance I went to church one morning and it was just like anyother morning, I followed the service, said my prayers, did little church with the younger parishinors and felt good in myself that I had been able to spend some time with Our God. After mass I went up an joined a handful of my pals, who were in deep conversation, they didn’t seem to want me to join in and then one of my pals said what do you think of her, coming to church, all high and mighty, Yeh, said another and we havent seen her for years, she just wants her kid to get into St Eddies, I then interupted and said well, wouldn’t you have done the same? How do we know she hasn’t been going to another church or different time mass, weel we don’t they said, butt… so I left them with there thoughts and went off to join the person who they had pointed the finger at. I knew her and spoke to her about how great it is to feel apart of a family and said I was made up she was putting her name forward to join us in the children’s lit.

That day I looked back and reflected and the person who came to mind was Mary Madeline and that day I felt what just did, pity and hurt and that day I wanted to just bend down and statr writing in thin air on the ground, to se what my friends reactions would be?

Have a good day and keep smiling, cause the whole world will smile with you.

Love and peace of Jesus Christ be with you always.

Angela x

 

[greenpatrick125]

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

 

[Ginger2]

Hail Mary, full of grace…

The original text does not say “full of Grace”

If I remember correctly, The only place Scripture where those words are used is in reference to Jesus:

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

Altho translated differently, the same words used to address Mary are applied to all believers in Eph 1:6 meaning being made accepted to God.

Ginger

 

[IanGE]

Juan,

The simple answer is that there is no Scripture that supports Mary having no other children. However, while there are Scriptures that suggest Mary may have had other children, there is no Scripture that positively confirms siblings.

So I ask you this, What difference does it make if Mary had other children with Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

It would not be a sin as they were legally married according to Jewish law.

It would not change who Jesus was nor deter his mission.

It would not change God not His sovereign nature.

So what difference does it make?

I love this answer, Ginger2. I am a cradle Catholic, I have given my life to Jesus, I am devoted to Our Lady/My Lady! She was, UNQUESTIONABLY, a virgin at her conception and birth of Jesus. If not, the prophecies are unfulfilled, Jesus isn’t who He claims to be, the whole Christian religion collapses. Miraculous birth, miraculous resurrection from the dead - MUST BE to have survived and thrived for so long. But I cannot believe that she was “ever Virgin”, deprived of the joyous loving union - with her HUSBAND - created by our Loving Father God, nor would my Father condemn Joseph to a life of celibacy. Jesus, in Scripture, HAD brothers (Mk. 3:31 et al):Scripture also mentions ‘Mary, mother of James and Joses’. As Ginger2 says, - so what?

I was born in 1936, baptised 8 days later but my mother wasn’t allowed to be at my baptism until she was ‘churched’ a month after my birth. The church had this curious dogma that my mother and all mothers were UNCLEAN after giving birth - or presumably for having intercourse nine months earlier. IN THE SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE! Where in the Bible or anywhere does that disgusting slur on women - and men - occur?
My loving Abba, Creator God said “and the two shall become one flesh” blessing the holiness, the sanctity of a physical, marital union. If priests want to offer themselves to celibacy, Amen, so be it, but please don’t extend celibate phobias on the rest of our loving God’s loving children!

 

[ARiver32]

We are all quoting scripture left and right to support or contradict Mary’s Virginity. I believe it because the Holy Mother Church instructed by Jesus to preach the Gospel (not to write it) says so, period. The church is the mother of the scriptures not the scripture the mother of the church. To understand scriptures we need to know the cultural, sociopolitical, geographical, etc conditions in which the scriptures were written, and the Holy Catholic Church has experts on that. I do not recall in the scripture Jesus telling any of the apostles “write what I am saying”. It was all given to us by Sacred Traditions. Besides, with the exception of a 1X2 inches piece of John or Matthew, there is NOT a single original Bible text all is based on copies.

Some question the virginity of our Blessed Mother the same way the Da’Vinci Code questions the celibacy of Jesus.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh come on now. So she isn’t full of grace, eh? Tell me how the original Greek refers to a ‘daughter’ (it doesn’t) or that the root is ‘favor’ (it isn’t. It’s grace).

So how come the Greek scholars etc. give the translation from the original Greek as 'full of grace"–a perfect passive implying that the grace not only existed at that particular moment, but before, and after, to the highest possible extent?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Churching is a beautiful ritual that is meant to be an avowal of the blessing of the child. Unfortunately some misogynists and revisionists have tried to turn it into a neo-Albigensian kind of 'women-matter BAD, man-matter GOOD" slur.

And with due respect, the cafeteria is closed. The Church has spoken on Mary’s being ever virgin. Don’t worry, I won’t say you aren’t Catholic–but you’re a dissenting Catholic, a protesting Catholic, a Catholic who only wants to accept SOME teachings.

In the immortal words from a great musical. . . It’s ALL OR NOTHING when it comes to Catholicism. Thinking that you somehow ‘know better’ or can justify not accepting a teaching isn’t catholic small c universal. Unity doesn’t mean that you accept some, and others accept some. All accept all is what we should be striving for, not turning out to be our own little popes of the church of Me.

 

[Ginger2]

Oh come on now. So she isn’t full of grace, eh? Tell me how the original Greek refers to a ‘daughter’ (it doesn’t) or that the root is ‘favor’ (it isn’t. It’s grace).

So how come the Greek scholars etc. give the translation from the original Greek as 'full of grace"–a perfect passive implying that the grace not only existed at that particular moment, but before, and after, to the highest possible extent?

You have misunderstood. I said it doesn’t say “full of grace”. The word “full” is not in the text of Luke.

Strong’s definition: χαριτόω

1. to make graceful
   a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

Based on that fact, I showed where the same phrase directed toward Mary is used concerning all believers

This same phrase is found in Eph 1:6. Regardless of how the words are translated in English Catholic Bibles, the Greek is the same in both verses for Luke and Ephesians.

The only place the words “full of grace” appear are speaking of Jesus.

To me it appeaers as tho Catholics go out of their way to give to Mary what is due to God alone:

The Bible says Jesus is full of grace.
Catholics say Mary is "full of grace.

Jesus: Lived a sinsless life
Mary: Lived a sinless life

Jesus: Redeemer
Mary: Co-Redemtrix

Jesus: Bodily ascended into heaven:
Mary: Bodily Assumed into heaven:

Jesus: Sits on His Father’s throne in heaven:
Mary: Queen of heaven:

Jesus: Advocate and Intercessor for the saints
Mary: Advocate and intercessor for the saints

and so on, and so on…

 

[Frankk]

You can’t prove it. The Bible doesn’t define it one way or another. Catholics accept it on faith.

I agree that you can’t prove [or disprove] this point. You can only offer evidence for people to consider. For me this is John 19:26-27. I have lived in Saudi Arabia and travelled to Israel and other Arab countries. One thing that stands out [and crosses cultural boundaries] is how important the family is in the Middle East. It is goes to the very core of their societies.
I had one arab guy who came to me asking for a job where there was a lot more overtime available. The reason? His brother had been killed and he now had to look after his brother’s wife and children, as well as his own.

We can be sure that family ties were just as strong - no, moreso - in the 1st Century.
The idea that Jesus would ‘give’ his mother to a man [and vice versa] and that she would go and live with that man, when she had sons and daughters to look after her is just beyond comprehension. It is quite outside any conception in Middle East thought that such a thing could happen. People readin [or hearing this account] at the time would have been very clear about what the situation was: Mary had no other children.

The most likely outcome would have been a blood feud and I doubt John would have been alive very much longer.

 

[aarontassin]

There aren’t any Scriptures that** positively confirm** siblings.

Just like there are non that deny siblings

 In the Pauline Epistles, Paul frequently writes about virginity for the sake of the Kingdom of God. From my understanding of virginity for the sake of the kingdom, it would appear that one is able to maintain their virginity because God has graced them and blessed them with self control. Raphael tells Mary that she has found favor with God and she is blessed amongst women. Mary is also considered by scripture to be full of grace.     
 Mary is a "poster child" example of lifetime virginity for the sake of the kingdom.

Why would you want to imagine the blessed mother of our Lord to later be defiled by a man in the first place? Even though it would not be a sin, the idea seems intensely disturbing to me and I find a great sense of inner peace in seeing the blessed mother as a forever gracefull and undefiled mother of my Lord and God.