How can I prove that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin?

[Steven_John]

That is, an old man in AD250 could have known, as a child, an old man who HIMSELF had seen or known Mary (as a child). That being so,

How old would that man need to be?

How young would that man had to be?

Are you sure???

Yet we can’t point to one person at one time who received this revelation. Christians still believe it’s true

My experience would say this would be more accurate if you said Catholic still believe it’s true.

Jesus stated he is God.

i dont think so most trinitarians i know will tell you out right for fear of death.

For your statement to be true he would need to declare it out right or we are in the same boat as now scripture does not say Mary (bbhn) gave birth to more children but scripture could be read to suggest the other children were hers.

Do Not Exceed That Which Is Written 1 Corinthians 4:6

Fits the above quote

Trusting the Church, like trusting God, is a matter of faith

My guess A man taught you this
Blind men lead blind men in holes Jesus is THE teacher.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth not the Bible

That cant be true if i ask the church where it bet its authority will it refer to the bible to explain apostleistic succession?

I have faith in God, but I have no faith in your Church

.
Maybe the earth isn’t flat after all LOL

Dot Dot Dot

 

[Steven_John]

If it’s something we need to know, wouldn’t God make it clear? Why wouldn’t God just come out and tell us in His word that Mary was a perpetual virgin rather than “suggest” this was the case? Doesn’t God love us enough to tell us what He considers important? I believe He does!

Amen then so Jesus (pbwh) is the son of man and The Father is greater than he.

Bless ya all it is great sharing with you that we may seek and see The Truth together, sorry about my time difference

 

[Luke65]

If it’s something we need to know, wouldn’t God make it clear?

Why would you think that? For it is written:

“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.” (2 Corinthians 4:3)

Believe it.

Why wouldn’t God just come out and tell us in His word that Mary was a perpetual virgin rather than “suggest” this was the case? Doesn’t God love us enough to tell us what He considers important? I believe He does!

He does. And that is why God told you that the Church, not the Bible, is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” - so that you would believe what the Church tells you. So believe it. And doesn’t that make sense? After all, it was the Catholic Church, “the pillar and foundation”, that gave you the Bible, “the truth”. Come home and receive the Sacraments and you will see Jesus Christ, who is the Truth, as He really is (Luke 24:31).

 

[Ginger2]

What did God do before the Bible?

lol He spoke directly to human beings just like he did to the ones who wrote His commands in the Bible.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

And just as He does still today to those who are open to hearing His voice.

 

[Steven_John]

And that is why God told you that the Church, not the Bible, is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”

How did G-d tell this to them?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Right. Of course His voice can be heard both in Scripture and Sacred Tradition AND in His one, holy Catholic and apostolic church to their fullest extent.

Now some Catholics might not listen even though they have the best opportunity. And some Protestants who hear some of the fullness in their teachings might listen ‘better’ than those lackadaisical Catholics. So I’m not saying that ‘only’ Catholics will hear His voice or even that “all” Catholics will hear it better simply because they’re Catholic.

But they do have the greatest opportunity.

And of course all things being equal you’ll usually find Catholics who are more inclined to the broader, more nuanced, more ‘complete’ teachings because they have 2000 years’ worth to draw on. Even the Protestants with the closest “Catholic” ties like the Lutherans and the Anglicans who still use more of those teachings than, say, the “Church of the brethren of Jerubabbel est. 2007” either neglect some of those early teachings (I say neglect but it’s often ‘deny’) as well as adding on others.

 

[Steven_John]

Hi Tantum ergo,

could you please explain this for me some times i aint real bright

That is, an old man in AD250 could have known, as a child, an old man who HIMSELF had seen or known Mary (as a child).

How old was the man when he gave testimony and how old was he when he knew Mary (bbhn) as a child

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Stephen, I can give you an example, if you like.

My ex’s grandmother was born in 1887 and lived to age 100. When she was 12 years old, in 1899, she traveled to Sweden with her family and met her relatives, including her great-grandmother who was 100 that year, being born then in 1799.

She spoke to me in the last year of her life (1987) of this great-grandmother whom she had met, and of the parents and grandparents by description that she had heard from this woman.

At the time we spoke, it was 188 years since that great-grandmother’s birth–that is, nearly 200 years, that is comparable to an AD 50 to AD 250 period.

Her great grandmother spoke of her own grandmother whom she remembered from childhood–that woman was born in 1732. To put that into perspective, I believe GEORGE WASHINGTON was born in 1732.

So here I was, in 1987, speaking with a woman who had spoken with a woman who spoke of a woman born when George Washington was born. Living memory that stretched from this woman’s being known to her granddaughter who then spoke to her greatgranddaughter who then spoke to me–her granddaughter-in-law. 1732 to 1987 is 245 years. Yes, both the grandmothers lived to a ripe age of 100, but it isn’t all that unknown for people to have long lives, and our life spans are getting longer. I’m 53 now and it is possible that one day 47 years from now, I too will be able to speak to a grandchild or great grandchild about hearing from their great-great-great grandmother about their ancestor born in 1732. 47 years from now it will be 2056. . .324 years from the time the ancestor in Sweden was born, yet the memory will be direct, from a woman who knew the woman who knew the woman who knew the woman. Living oral history.

 

[Steven_John]

I see now what you are saying, that it is documented hearsay not personal testimony?

 

[Steven_John]

" that this was so–and since every OTHER instance of a heresy or wrong teaching in Catholicism was dealt with by the Church, this would have been dealt with."

Not at the time of this writing, i think the earth was still flat then.

The beauty of the Church is She does correct herself as time goes on.

If this Protoevangelium of James is correct and true why was it not include in the 66 books?

 

[Luke65]

How did G-d tell this to them?

I take it you mean that this is a circular argument. But it’s not a circular argument for those of us who believe and know that the Bible is the Word of God; because God has revealed this to us in many ways, most importantly through grace. And so they know it’s the truth, it’s just a matter of understanding it.

Now in your case, you’re just beginning your faith journey, so I wouldn’t give you that argument to consider, but then again I wouldn’t try to convince you of Mary’s perpetual virginity if you don’t even believe that she was a virgin when she conceived Jesus! But I see that you are sincerely seeking the truth of God, and I know that God draws His people to Him in many ways. And so, I would say the most important thing for you is to ask God for the grace of faith, so that when you read the Sacred Scriptures you will hear the voice of God. And I would recommend reading the gospels, all four of them, or at least the first and the last. And then see how all of this was foretold by God’s prophets in the Old Testament, and then you will have reasons to believe to build on a foundation of faith. God bless.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I have faith in God, but I have no faith in your Church. God thought it was important enough to give us His inspired, inerrant word in the Scriptures, and He made it clear that to go beyond what Scripture says is dangerous (see Proverbs 30:6).

If it’s something we need to know, wouldn’t God make it clear? Why wouldn’t God just come out and tell us in His word that Mary was a perpetual virgin rather than “suggest” this was the case? Doesn’t God love us enough to tell us what He considers important? I believe He does!

As far as being the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (you forgot to include “the”), what does it say about your concept of truth when you rely on spurious documents for some of your doctrines (and dogmas)? Doesn’t a pillar and foundation hold something up (like “the Truth”)?

If the Bereans checked Paul’s teaching against the OT Scriptures, then how much more should we rely on the NT (and all of Scripture) to check out and verify Church doctrines and dogmas?

You will find nothing in the teachings of the Church that oppose anything in Sacred Scripture.

 

[Steven_John]

I take it you mean that this is a circular argument. But it’s not a circular argument for those of us who believe and know that the Bible is the Word of God; because God has revealed this to us in many ways, most importantly through grace. And so they know it’s the truth, it’s just a matter of understanding it.

Now in your case, you’re just beginning your faith journey, so I wouldn’t give you that argument to consider, but then again I wouldn’t try to convince you of Mary’s perpetual virginity if you don’t even believe that she was a virgin when she conceived Jesus! But I see that you are sincerely seeking the truth of God, and I know that God draws His people to Him in many ways. And so, I would say the most important thing for you is to ask God for the grace of faith, so that when you read the Sacred Scriptures you will hear the voice of God. And I would recommend reading the gospels, all four of them, or at least the first and the last. And then see how all of this was foretold by God’s prophets in the Old Testament, and then you will have reasons to believe to build on a foundation of faith. God bless.

Where did you get that, i appreciate your love and care in your post but i think you have really mis read me and have made assumption/s.
For me i would rather live in the spirit before being empowered to make false assumptions.

And yes i would have spouted circular reasoning, IMO better support would be that our unity makes it so.

Bless ya pray well and stay well

 

[Steven_John]

You will find nothing in the teachings of the Church that oppose anything in Sacred Scripture.

That does not itself make truth,

Some can read scripture and decide Mary (bbhn) was ever virgin others read and say no.
Look at the difference between the English bibles.

If we assert that the Church never gets scripture wrong the earth is still flat and other examples.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I really would like to see the definitive document which proved that “the Church” taught that the earth was flat. Because, quite frankly, I don’t believe such a document exists. If anything, it was monks -diligently copying the works of ‘secular’ authors-- who managed to save a lot of manuscripts from being destroyed by various barbarian hordes. And since it had been known in ancient times that the earth was round (even to calculations of the earth’s diameter being done and remarkably accurate), the idea that the Church was somehow going around teaching pseudoscience as ‘fact’ is rather insulting.

Just who do you think started universities in Europe? (Hint: The Church).
How about hospitals? (Yep. Those too).

Who do you think were some of the greatest scientific minds from AD 1 through the Middle Ages and beyond? (Yep. Priests and monks. Ever heard even in the relative RECENT times of Gregor Mendel?) The Church ADVANCED science. Who do you think were some of the greatest benefactors to the agricultural field, helping to increase crop yields, grow more varieties of food, and better the standard of living for the average person’s subsistence farms? Yep --the Church’s monks and priests.

 

[Luke65]

Where did you get that, i appreciate your love and care in your post but i think you have really mis read me and have made assumption/s.
For me i would rather live in the spirit before being empowered to make false assumptions.

And yes i would have spouted circular reasoning, IMO better support would be that our unity makes it so.

Bless ya pray well and stay well

Okay, I’m sorry I misunderstood. I thought you knew that the Bible says that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15), since we’ve quoted it here. So how did God tell them that? The Bible tells them so.

 

[Steven_John]

Okay, I’m sorry I misunderstood. I thought you knew that the Bible says that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15), since we’ve quoted it here. So how did God tell them that? The Bible tells them so.

Sorry i did not choose my words well, you were right i did consider it circular.

I offered that IMO unity of the Catholic church is a better argument.

One assumption of me i made bold in the quote

 

[Luke65]

Sorry i did not choose my words well, you were right i did consider it circular.

I offered that IMO unity of the Catholic church is a better argument.

Aah, I see. Taken under advisement…

“May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” (John 17:23)

You’re pretty good at this!

 

[Cachonga]

Br. Rich SFO:

You will find nothing in the teachings of the Church that oppose anything in Sacred Scripture.

If that were true I would still be Catholic. Mary’s alleged perpetual virginity is an example (just to stay on topic). The angel didn’t tell Mary that she would remain a virgin her entire life, and to “assume” that she had a “vow of virginity” is completely unsupported by scripture. Joseph was told not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife, with no indication that he had to keep her a virgin her entire life. Even the OT prophecy that was fulfilled only stated that “a virgin will conceive and bear a son”, not so much as a hint that she was a perpetual virgin. And to claim that Ezekiel’s “sealed gate” refers to Mary’s virginity is a stretch (especially since that is a real gate, and was sealed centuries ago, and is mentioned in Revelations).

 

[Luke65]

One assumption of me i made bold in the quote

Oh, but that wasn’t an assumption - I said “if”.