How can I prove that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin?

[tqualey]

Hi, Muze,

I am really interested in your reasoning here … we have an abundance of evidence from Scripture that May was most favored by God: chosen from all eternity to be the Mother of God, absolutely sinless from the first moment of her life, and totally devoted to Christ.

Additonally, the Early Church Fthers all believed Mary to be ever virgin - and her perpetual virginity was determined to be a dogam of the Catholic Faith prior to 700AD.

Against this weight of evidence, we have these random quotes about Jesus’ “… brothers and sisters…” and Joseph took her as his wife to mean only one thing - and something that we can easily understand today in our own culture.

I just fail to appreciate the what it is that saying Mary had multiple children is trying ot prove… except to gainsay prior teaching of the Catholic Church. God has worked in many miraculous ways involving Mary - so that Mary may be an instrument of leading us to Christ. So, tell me, in your opinion, what would be the problem with you proclaiming Mary’s perpetual virginity? As I see it, all you have is your own interpretation of Scripture - and you know that is not error free.

God bless

Actually, this is inaccurate, for the reason you suggest below. Jesus does have relatives that could be brothers and sisters, but not the text is not definitive. In order to say that Jesus didn’t have brothers and sisters, you have to take the less likely reading, although that reading is possible.

Except that most of this is conjecture, and not based in Scripture. God specifically told Joseph to take Mary home to be his wife. So, this assertion seems to contradict Scripture.

 

[panevino]

posted by MUZE

…Except that most of this is conjecture, and not based in Scripture. God specifically told Joseph to take Mary home to be his wife. So, this assertion seems to contradict Scripture.

Hi,
Just a thought about your words
“…God specifically told Joseph to take Mary home to be his wife…”
And I accept that I could be wrong here…
But wasn’t she already his wife and he her husband?

(KJV)Matt1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.19 Then Joseph **her husband, **being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Isn’t v20 saying don’t fear to keep your wife with you, (ie: dont put her away privily, per vs 19), rather than what you seem to suggest - dont fear to take her home “to be” your wife.?

I know the “espoused” arrangement is complex/different to today. My understanding is the words “put her away privily” is a divorce. Ie: Matt 5: 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

 

[bpbruno211]

There is no verse in the Bible that states that Mary has always been a virgin. There are many verses that Jesus had brothers and sisters. They were not cousins as some try to proclaim.

 

[bpbruno211]

Catholic dogma says that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This is scripturally false. See the following:

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethern, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?”

Matthew 27:56 “Among which was Mary Magladene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.”

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, Son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon. and are not his sisters here With us? and they were offended at him.”

These scriptures and others prove without a doubt that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Don’t try to twist these scriptures! Take them for what they say.

 

[panevino]

There is no verse in the Bible that states that Mary has always been a virgin. There are many verses that Jesus had brothers and sisters. They were not cousins as some try to proclaim.

Perhaps
Heb11: 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Sarah only had one child with Abraham - issac - a type of Christ.
ISA 51:2,

Sarah?
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her… 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Note.
There is no verse that states Mary had other children, or that she was the physical mother of anyone but Jesus.

 

[panevino]

Catholic dogma says that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This is scripturally false. See the following:

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethern, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?”

Perhaps consider, though can see you have…
James is brother of judas - Jude 1:1, Luke 6:14-16
James is brother of joses - mat27:56
James is apostle - gal1:19 and “brother” of lord
2 apostles called James - neither of them have a father called Joseph - it’s either zebedee or alphaeus. Luke 6:14-16

…These scriptures and others prove without a doubt that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Don’t try to twist these scriptures! Take them for what they say.

Have you ever tried to figure out why Catholics consider her PV?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

FCEGM:

In the 4th Century, after the (incorrect) Epiphanian view was long established as a pastoral explanation among the Greek-speaking churches, St. Jerome (a Latin father) re-discovered the (2nd Century) claims of St. Hegesippus and re-popularized them. He did this in large part because, unlike the Greek fathers, Jerome spoke and appreciated Hebrew and Aramaic, and he happily associated with Jewish rabbis, whom he employed to help him in his Biblical translations. Jerome was thus privy to the fact that Jews used the term “brother” in a broader, tribal sense, in reference to any male relative. Jerome is clearly correct, since, as Scripture shows, the mother of the “brothers” James and Joseph/Joses was clearly still alive during the time of the Crucifixion / Resurrection. If St. Joseph (Jesus’ foster father) was their father, he must have been either polygamous (which unto itself contradicts the Epiphanian scenario) or divorced from this woman (the mother of James and Joseph/Joses) prior to his marriage to the Virgin. Yet, there is no implication of this nor any Tradition about such a thing! Therefore, the Epiphanian view cannot be reconciled with Scripture. There is no real historical basis to say that St. Joseph had any kids from a previous marriage. The idea was cooked up in the minds of Greek-speaking Gentiles (who were ignorant of Jewish culture and terminology) to explain to their Gentile flocks how Jesus could have “brothers” when His mother was a perpetual virgin.

Thanks for your very clear and perspicuous explanation. Like you said, the Greeks were most concerned with protecting the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin, their primary concern, not on the family of St. Joseph. Even today that doctrine is in constant doubt by Evangelicals and other Protestants.

 

[FCEGM]

Thanks for your very clear and perspicuous explanation. Like you said, the Greeks were most concerned with protecting the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin, their primary concern, not on the family of St. Joseph. Even today that doctrine is in constant doubt by Evangelicals and other Protestants.

:sad_yes: This in itself shows how far from the early Church they have strayed since their reforming ancestors had no problem with the Church’s belief in the ever-Virgin Mary.

Thank you, AmbroseSJ.

 

[Frankk]

There is no verse in the Bible that states that Mary has always been a virgin. There are many verses that Jesus had brothers and sisters. They were not cousins as some try to proclaim.

And what is your proof? Throughout the Bible there are plenty of examples where men are called brothers when they clearly are not in the modern understanding of the word.
To give one example in Gen 14:14 Lot is called Abraham’s brother but Gen 11:27 tells us Lot’s father is Haran and Haran’s brother is Abraham’s brother. This shows Abraham is Lot’s uncle. There are other examples you can seek out where non- siblings are called brothers.

In the NT there are many references to Jesus as the Son of Mary. There is not one single example of anyone else being referred to as the son or daughter of Mary.

At the incident at the temple when Jesus was 12 there is no mention of any siblings. They had no birth control then so it is more than probable that he would have had siblings and that they would figure in the story. Similarly, at the Cross where were his brothers and sisters? It is unthinkable they would not have been there.

And the clincher surely is that Jesus gave Mary to John as his mother and he as her son. Such an arrangement would have caused outrage if he had blood brothers/sisters.

By the way the first time it was proposed that Mary had other children wasn’t until c.380AD when Helvidius raised it. It caused a great stir. It was soundly refuted by Jerome who drew on early documents from, for example, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, etc. Helvidius had no reply. his idea then lay dead and buried until over 1500 years later when it was raised again by modern Evangelicals.

So what exactly do you base your statement on? What is your proof?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bpbruno,

Well, that explains everything! So, the 1st Century Gospels Writers had the same idea about brother and sister as 21st Century readers. Truly amazing.

And, of course, it can only be this way. And, of course, the Early Church Father’s writing on the perpetual virginity of Mary also do not count into your reasoning. Truly amazing.

God bless

Catholic dogma says that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This is scripturally false. See the following:

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethern, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?”

Matthew 27:56 “Among which was Mary Magladene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.”

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, Son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon. and are not his sisters here With us? and they were offended at him.”

These scriptures and others prove without a doubt that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Don’t try to twist these scriptures! Take them for what they say.

 

[raymond_king]

this question has seemed to provoke a myriad of explanations, and of course controversy. I would ask again one simple question. When Gabriel announced to Mary that She was to be the mother of a son did she say “ok” i,m betrothed to Joseph so I know how it’s going to work, givin the “birds and the bees” or did she say “how can this be since I am a Virgin”. It is, even in the way of conjecture, that she was commited to her vow even given to her betrothal to Joseph.Raymond King

 

[selstella]

Hello everyone,

Hay Jose,

Believe,my friend, Believe ,That is all
Mary the mother of Most High cannot allow her body to be shared by someone else except the Holy Spirit.
Secondly Mary even went on to deny the motherhood ( To Michael the angel)
if her virginity was in question by becoming a mother ( Let it be even to GOD) (Luke Chapter 1)
She is and was the ONLY Virgin the world had ever seen/known,
She should remain virgin to crush the head of serpent(SATAN),as wished by God at Genesis 3:15
Thirdly Mary loved her Son so much that she cannot even for a minute depart JESUS from Her thought.So all ordinary (so called) worldly pleasure was NOTHING to her.

AVE MARIA

selstella

Hey friends my name is Jose and I would like to know how to prove to my friends that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin. God Bless You All

 

[raymond_king]

Catholic dogma says that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This is scripturally false. See the following:

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethern, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?”

Matthew 27:56 “Among which was Mary Magladene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.”

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, Son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon. and are not his sisters here With us? and they were offended at him.”

These scriptures and others prove without a doubt that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Don’t try to twist these scriptures! Take them for what they say.

 

[raymond_king]

Hi: Scripture as to vows: numbers 30:1-17 , although it is somewhat vague can give something of the information upon which ca reflect as to Mary,s Perpetual vow of Virginity.I can only offer this up to you as a meditation but i feel in this quotation an answer to this perplection. Raymond King

 

[tqualey]

Hi Bpbruno,

You have yet to address the question I asked on what is the basis for thinking that the terms ‘…brothers and sisters…’ from the 1st Century Judea means the same thing as ‘brothrs and sisters’ in the 21st Century?

No one is twisting or distorting anything. If there were a word for cousin or step-brother/step-sister, etc. this may have been really helpful - but, that was not the case. In addition to Scripture which did not exist in a vacuum, we need to take a look at what the Early Church Fathers wrote about on this subjecvt - and that has already been presented.

What makes this truly remarkable is that the 16th Century Protestant revolutionary founders (Luther, Calvin, etc) attacked those who criticized Mary and defended the teachings of her perpetual virginity. It would appear that even just going back to the Protestant roots would give you some insight that they did not hold to the position you are presenting. Do you think THEY have twisted Scripture, too?

Digging in your heels with statements accusing others of deceit (twisting Scripture) is truly counter-productive.

God bless

Catholic dogma says that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This is scripturally false. See the following:

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethern, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?”

Matthew 27:56 “Among which was Mary Magladene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.”

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, Son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon. and are not his sisters here With us? and they were offended at him.”

These scriptures and others prove without a doubt that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Don’t try to twist these scriptures! Take them for what they say.

 

[Frankk]

Catholic dogma says that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This is scripturally false. See the following:

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethern, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?”

They were his cousins.

Matthew 27:56 “Among which was Mary Magladene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.”

Yes, Mary the mother of his cousins. If you had bothered to read on just a few lines you would have seen: Mt 27:61 “Now Mary Magdalene and the other Mary…”
Do you really think the Mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary?

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, Son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon. and are not his sisters here With us? and they were offended at him.”

Again, cousins.

These scriptures and others prove without a doubt that Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Don’t try to twist these scriptures! Take them for what they say.

They clearly don’t and you are trying to impose your own modern interpretation onto a First Century culture

 

[raymond_king]

Hi Bpbruno,

You have yet to address the question I asked on what is the basis for thinking that the terms ‘…brothers and sisters…’ from the 1st Century Judea means the same thing as ‘brothrs and sisters’ in the 21st Century?

No one is twisting or distorting anything. If there were a word for cousin or step-brother/step-sister, etc. this may have been really helpful - but, that was not the case. In addition to Scripture which did not exist in a vacuum, we need to take a look at what the Early Church Fathers wrote about on this subjecvt - and that has already been presented.

What makes this truly remarkable is that the 16th Century Protestant revolutionary founders (Luther, Calvin, etc) attacked those who criticized Mary and defended the teachings of her perpetual virginity. It would appear that even just going back to the Protestant roots would give you some insight that they did not hold to the position you are presenting. Do you think THEY have twisted Scripture, too?

Digging in your heels with statements accusing others of deceit (twisting Scripture) is truly counter-productive.

God bless

This is getting very tedious. if you folks got something new to add add it if not go and concider what has already been offered and go the God in Prayer. Ray

 

[raymond_king]

However, I would like to address a question that I could not get through on p. madrid blog
concerning medjugorje: Her messages are consistent with and illuminating in terms of the liturgy of the church especially of the mass. May 25.2011 she yalks of “hope and prayer” and that we should ‘decide’ for ‘holiness’. then on june 2 2011 she says i will help you have my son and his works his cross and resurrection triumph in your hearts. when we say the words of the mystery of faith does not this theme seem apparent. if you explore her words in the context of each monthty message and in each each monthly liturgy you will find an illuminating approach to the Meanings. Ray

 

[raymond_king]

A new theme inspires my song: The Goodness of God! We hear the words in the Mass: Blessed are you God of Creation, we have this bread to offer which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life. Blessed are you God of All creation we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands------and we answer to both blessed be God Forever. These words are presented to us to remind us of the creation extending thru Christ into the new creation . Every word in the mass means something related to something else. don’t let any word slip by unattended. I have just discovered the Lord have mercy. Lord of the beginning, christ the now, lord of the end. Yahweh. If you look to this etymology. you will see this prayer, which bores so many of us take form. ray

 

[raymond_king]

Hi: Scripture as to vows: numbers 30:1-17 , although it is somewhat vague can give something of the information upon which ca reflect as to Mary,s Perpetual vow of Virginity.I can only offer this up to you as a meditation but i feel in this quotation an answer to this perplection. Raymond King

did any bother to check this verse out our we going around in circles forever or maybe ask a new question. Ray