How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[ready]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

You may own one dog and I may own one dog but our dogs are not one and the same dog.

The Christians worship one God and the Muslims worship one god, but Christians and Muslims do not worship one *and the same *God because our God has a Son and the Muslim god doesn’t. Period.

How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)

 

[PRmerger]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

You may own one dog and I may own one dog but our dogs are not one and the same dog.

The Christians worship one God and the Muslims worship one god, but Christians and Muslims do not worship one *and the same *God because our God has a Son and the Muslim god doesn’t. Period.

How do you reconcile this with our Church’s statement that we do worship the same God?

 

[LilyM]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

You may own one dog and I may own one dog but our dogs are not one and the same dog.

The Christians worship one God and the Muslims worship one god, but Christians and Muslims do not worship one *and the same *God because our God has a Son and the Muslim god doesn’t. Period.

Yes, but imagine that both Mr Smiths are friends of my grandfather Abraham and he only ever had one friend by the name of Smith, or both dogs previously belonged to my grandfather Abraham and he only ever had the one dog.

In such a case logic dictates that we are in fact talking about one and the same Mr Smith, and one of us is just wrong about the number of children. And the same dog, which we both own.

Perhaps you are blind and mistakenly think the dog is a Labrador whereas I can see and know it is a poodle, but that still doesn’t change the fact that it is actually the same dog.

 

[clem456]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

You may own one dog and I may own one dog but our dogs are not one and the same dog.

The Christians worship one God and the Muslims worship one god, but Christians and Muslims do not worship one *and the same *God because our God has a Son and the Muslim god doesn’t. Period.

But Mr Smith is objectively Mr Smith, whether you know his son or not. It’s the same Mr Smith. The existence of Mr Smith does not depend on one individual’s imperfect understanding of who Mr Smith is.

 

[PRmerger]

But Mr Smith is objectively Mr Smith, whether you know his son or not. It’s the same Mr Smith. The existence of Mr Smith does not depend on one individual’s imperfect understanding of who Mr Smith is.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m confused. Are you saying that the Eucharist is tossed aside as not essential to Christianity by the Apostolic Churches?

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. I am claiming that the Eucharist is all-essential to Christianity, yet is set aside as some sort of optional belief by many who still consider themselves “Christian”. Somehow belief in the Trinity is the bottom line and the Eucharist is unnecessary.

However, we must say that the Eucharist as in the liturgy is central to the faith of the Apostolic Churches. Without the liturgy, the Apostolic Churches cease to be.

My point exactly.

 

[triumphguy]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

You may own one dog and I may own one dog but our dogs are not one and the same dog.

The Christians worship one God and the Muslims worship one god, but Christians and Muslims do not worship one *and the same *God because our God has a Son and the Muslim god doesn’t. Period.

Here’s another scenario:

You know Mr. Smith and have met his Son.
I know the same Mr. Smith and have not met his Son.

Same Mr. Smith. You know his Son and I don’t.

This is what the Church teaches.

 

[SteveVH]

Here’s another scenario:

You know Mr. Smith and have met his Son.
I know the same Mr. Smith and have not met his Son.

Same Mr. Smith. You know his Son and I don’t.

This is what the Church teaches.

Gotta love it.

 

[jmcrae]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

You may own one dog and I may own one dog but our dogs are not one and the same dog.

The Christians worship one God and the Muslims worship one god, but Christians and Muslims do not worship one *and the same *God because our God has a Son and the Muslim god doesn’t. Period.

If there were only one Mr. Smith in all of existence, though, or only one dog in all of existence, then you would have to admit (despite appearances to the contrary, that both instances of Mr. Smith were the same person (with details being poorly observed in either one case or the other), or that both instances of the dog were the same dog, again, with misidentification of certain details.

There is only one God - not two, or more.

 

[Reuben_J]

There is only one God - not two, or more.

Exactly. Thank you very much.

 

[JReducation]

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. I am claiming that the Eucharist is all-essential to Christianity, yet is set aside as some sort of optional belief by many who still consider themselves “Christian”. Somehow belief in the Trinity is the bottom line and the Eucharist is unnecessary.

My point exactly.

I must have read your post your post too quickly. I thank you for your patience and taking the time to explain. This makes perfect sense.

 

[Rich]

But by that logic the Jews do not worship the same God as us either - and no-one has ever said they do not. In fact the contrary.

The major difference here is that God has a covenant with the Jews and He will not beak it. There is no covenant with Moslems.

 

[SteveVH]

I must have read your post your post too quickly. I thank you for your patience and taking the time to explain. This makes perfect sense.

No problem, happens to me all the time. I see you are a brother in Fratres Franciscani Vitae. I was professed into the SFO June 4, 1994. I’ve only read a little about the FFV but it sounds pretty fascinating. I love the Franciscan charism wherever it is found.

God bless.

 

[Usagi]

The major difference here is that God has a covenant with the Jews and He will not beak it. There is no covenant with Moslems.

True, but why does that matter?

We’re not talking about the spiritual status of Jews and Muslims or whether God approves of their forms of worship, just whether they are “aiming” at the same entity, the God of Abraham, however mistaken they may be about His nature.

This isn’t a question of who is right or who is saved. It’s a question of historical connections. We can tell that we and the Jews worship the same God because Christianity arose out of Judaism. That is true even though they reject the divine Sonship of Jesus. We would say they are understanding and worshipping God wrongly according to His full revelation, but that doesn’t mean they have somehow switched to worshipping an alien deity.

With Muslims, it’s a bit harder because they came along later, but given that their religion acknowledges Abraham and Moses and Jesus, it’s clear that they have effectively borrowed elements from Judaism and Christianity. Of course, they claim to have an even fuller, more final revelation than ours, one that explicitly rejects Jesus’ divinity. I can completely understand being put off by that, but the Church is not asking you to believe that the Muslim claim is correct or that Islam (or Judaism) is a valid, working “alternate route” to God. Indeed, the Church explicitly rejects those ideas. The only thing she asserts is that all three religions, because of their common historical ties, are clearly “aiming” at the same God, the only God there is. They have different understandings of that God, to the point that at least two of them must be wrong, and of course the Church insists that her understanding is the most complete and correct. But there’s not somehow a “Muslim God” and a “Jewish God,” who don’t get along well but are both happily childless, alongside the Christian Trinity. There is exactly one God, but it is entirely possible to be ignorantly or stubbornly misinformed about what He is like. Keeping in mind that we have at least that little bit of common ground (monotheism and specificially the God of Abraham) may help us relate better to Jewish and Muslim believers and suggests a starting point for bringing them the full revelation of Jesus’ role. That is all Nostra Aetate is saying.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

You are right, Reuben. Here are some examples for you.

I may know a Mr. Smith and you may know a Mr. Smith, but we both know the Mr. Smith we know is not one and the same Mr. Smith because the Mr. Smith you know has a son and the Mr. Smith I know doesn’t.

Ah, but it’s more complicated than that. You say your Mr. Smith has no son, but the stories you have of his actions and the names of his friends and employees are uncannily close to the stories I know of my Mr. Smith, the one who has a son. You even talk about the guy I know as Smith Jr., but you insist he is just another friend or employee, not Smith’s son.

In that case, it becomes more likely that we are discussing the same Mr. Smith, but one of us has some wrong information about him. If I know for absolutely certain that Smith has a son, then I can be sure your information is mistaken. Further, if I know that Smith Sr. has promised to bequeath his considerable estate only to those who acknowledge Smith Jr. as his son, I can rightly warn you that you are in danger of missing out on a bequest, no matter how well you claim to know Mr. Smith. But I still have to acknowledge that there is no second Mr. Smith; we are, in fact, talking about the same fellow, even though you have clearly gotten some false information.

That is the situation that the Church acknowledges between Christians and Muslims.

Usagi

 

[SteveVH]

The major difference here is that God has a covenant with the Jews and He will not beak it. There is no covenant with Moslems.

The best answer to this was given by guanophore:

Originally Posted by quanophore
Islam is based on what the sons of Ishmael recieved as spiritual descendants of Abraham. As a result, what has been revealed to them is limited, and predates all of these revelations of God by Himself.

God told Abraham that the faith would be passed through His son Isaac. Abraham made a plea for his other son, Ishmael. Because Abraham loved God, God blessed his other son also.

Gen 17:18-27
And Abraham said to God, “O that Ishmael might live in your sight!”
19 God said, “No, but your wife Sarah shall bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; I will bless him and make him fruitful and exceedingly numerous; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year.” 22 And when he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.

23 Then Abraham took his son Ishmael and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised;

Ishmael was also circumcised, and given a blessing by the GoKd of Abraham. It is upon this basis that the CC acknowledges that the descendants of Ishmael worship the God of Abraham.

This blessing came millenia before the Koran, and the invention of modern Islam.

 

[JReducation]

No problem, happens to me all the time. I see you are a brother in Fratres Franciscani Vitae. I was professed into the SFO June 4, 1994. I’ve only read a little about the FFV but it sounds pretty fascinating. I love the Franciscan charism wherever it is found.

God bless.

We’re a small community, but growing, slowly like a plant. :yup:

We have secular and regular brothers as did the early brothers of penance in 1221, long before the separation into OFS and TOR. Many people don’t know that they were all one fraternity during Francis’ lifetime and for a number of years after.

 

[SteveVH]

We’re a small community, but growing, slowly like a plant. :yup:

We have secular and regular brothers as did the early brothers of penance in 1221, long before the separation into OFS and TOR. Many people don’t know that they were all one fraternity during Francis’ lifetime and for a number of years after.

I pray that you continue to grow and bear good fruit.