How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[PRmerger]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Simple as that.

Amen!

And no one can come to know Jesus except through His Church, the Catholic Church.

So, outside the Church there is no salvation, pcogperson.

However, just as the Church acknowledges that you may be joined to Christ’s body spiritually, although not formally…

so, too, does the Church acknowledge that Muslims may be joined to Christ spiritually, although not formally.

 

[pcogperson]

'zactly.

It’s the same paradigm. To be consistent, one must say: Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same God as Christians, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same Christ as Catholics.

That would be the consistent position advocated by Gaelic.

OR, take the Catholic position.

Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same God, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same Christ.

And the Catholic Church gets it wrong on alot of things. I will NOT put my trust in the Catholic Church or any other Church or person, only upon the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Let God alone be true and everyman a liar.

 

[PRmerger]

And the Catholic Church gets it wrong on alot of things. I will NOT put my trust in the Catholic Church or any other Church or person, only upon the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Let God alone be true and everyman a liar.

How is it that you know anything about Jesus without the Catholic Church, pcogperson?

If the Church got it wrong in a lot of areas, how can you trust the canon of Scripture, then, which was discerned for you by the CC.

Do you think she erred in proclaiming 3 John to be inspired? Did she err in excluding the letters of Clement?

You cannot know what’s inspired and what’s not without the authority of the CC.

 

[Reuben_J]

And the Catholic Church gets it wrong on alot of things. I will NOT put my trust in the Catholic Church or any other Church or person, only upon the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Let God alone be true and everyman a liar.

Wow.

 

[jrtrent]

However, for some peculiar reason, some here are holding an inconsistent standard:

Muslims do NOT worship the one true God, because they deny the Trinity.

But

Christians still worship the same Jesus, even if they deny the Eucharist.

We are trying to point out this inconsistency in their reasoning.

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I have read your posts, and I’m still confused about the point you’re making. First of all, I agree with you that Muslims and Jews worship the same God that Christians do, albeit with a different understanding of his nature. And I also agree that Christians who believe Christ was speaking metaphorically when he said “this is my body” are still worshipping the same Jesus.

However, I’m not seeing the parallel between the Muslim/Jewish concept of God without Christ or the Holy Ghost (which seems a very real difference about who and what God is) and the denial of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. I can see it as denying a truth about the Eucharist, but I don’t see how it makes Christ different in the same sense that denying trinitarianism makes God different.

 

[PRmerger]

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I have read your posts, and I’m still confused about the point you’re making. First of all, I agree with you that Muslims and Jews worship the same God that Christians do, albeit with a different understanding of his nature. And I also agree that Christians who believe Christ was speaking metaphorically when he said “this is my body” are still worshipping the same Jesus.

However, I’m not seeing the parallel between the Muslim/Jewish concept of God without Christ or the Holy Ghost (which seems a very real difference about who and what God is) and the denial of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. I can see it as denying a truth about the Eucharist, but I don’t see how it makes Christ different in the same sense that denying trinitarianism makes God different.

This is because you are consistent. You propose: Muslims/Jews worship the same God, although they do not have the full understanding of God in the Trinity.

You also propose, consistently, that Protestant Christians worship the same Christ as Christians, even though (we propose) you do not have the full understanding of Christ in the Eucharist.

The inconsistency lies in those who propose that, while Protestant Christians who deny Him in the Eucharist still worship the same Christ, Muslims who deny Him in the Trinity are worshipping a DIFFERENT God.

Can’t have both positions and remain consistent.

 

[guanophore]

No, Protestants who deny the real presence do NOT have a different understanding of God.

Yes, they do. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the faith, so an improper grasp of it does affect the understanding of God. The belief that Jesus cannot hold His own Body and Blood in His hands, and still offer it the next day on the cross reveals a deficient understanding nof what he taught. Protestants stand in the tradition of Apollos in this matter, along with others.

Do ANY of the creeds of the faith mention the eucharist as being essential to the nature of God and Who He is? The Nicene? Chalcedonian? Athanasian? Do you believe the Athanasian when it says those who deny its articles cannot be saved?

Yes, this belief is part and parcel of what it means to be catholic. The universal Church founded by the Apostles, and the creeds produced by her, believes in the Real Presence.

Muslims are not professing a different understsnding of how Christ handles sacraments. They’re denying Him altogether!

Yes, it is a grave situation. They have a different understanding of God, just as some Protestants have a different understanding of Jesus.

Again Steve, they are not ignorant. They specifically reject that God became incarnate in Christ. Every last one of them.

Just as Protestants are not ignorant of what Jesus said, they just specifically reject that He meant what He said.

You have.by even comparing the two. If you want to argue that Protestants are committing grave error by rejecting the eucharist, fine…but its not a disagreement over the fact of what is confessed about the Person.

Of course it is!

No parallel at all.

Christ is God. To not worship Christ (or the Spirit) is to not worship God.

I understand your point. But from our point of view it is the same.

Jesus said “This is my Body” and “This is my Blood”. To deny that He meant what He said is to call Him a liar. Or, alternatively, we can hope that those who commit this action are ignorant or misled, just as these disciples were:

Acts 19:1-3

While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

 

[ready]

How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)

You are right.

 

[Reuben_J]

This must be one of those days. I was truly amazed as I read bro JReducation’s post as he remunerated the the scholarly resume and the faith of five great Christian men that had gone before us in Bl John XXIII, Ven Paul IV, Paul I, Bl John Paul II and presently, Benedict XVI. How blessed is Christianity that she has never ceased to produce such outstanding Christians along the centuries, people we admire because of the shortcoming that we have in ourselves. But Christianity never ceases to amaze as a poster pcogperson seems to surpass those men as he brushes them aside without even giving a reason. I can only stand in awe and fall short of words.

 

[CopticChristian]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Simple as that. No need for fancy interpretation. If you do not accept what Jesus did for you at the cross you will NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. They can say what they want. Romans 3:4 “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;” This is not my words, nor my interpretation. God makes it very plain what is expected. They do not believe Jesus is God. Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Do not rely on man which includes me, yourself, your own understanding, the Catholic Church or any other Church. Amen.

Cog,

God makes it very plain you say. What is the basis of your knowledge for knowing what God says? In other words, these words you quote, where do they come from?

 

[guanophore]

Do Protestants worship Jesus apart from the Eucharist?

Yes, in the same way that Muslims worship the God of Abraham without Christ and the HS.

Um…because they deny the true God… the Trinitarian God…they deny Christ…they deny the Holy Spirit…and St John tells us that “whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”

Islam is based on what the sons of Ishmael recieved as spiritual descendants of Abraham. As a result, what has been revealed to them is limited, and predates all of these revelations of God by Himself.

God told Abraham that the faith would be passed through His son Isaac. Abraham made a plea for his other son, Ishmael. Because Abraham loved God, God blessed his other son also.

Gen 17:18-27
And Abraham said to God, “O that Ishmael might live in your sight!”
19 God said, “No, but your wife Sarah shall bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; I will bless him and make him fruitful and exceedingly numerous; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year.” 22 And when he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.

23 Then Abraham took his son Ishmael and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised;

Ishmael was also circumcised, and given a blessing by the GoKd of Abraham. It is upon this basis that the CC acknowledges that the descendants of Ishmael worship the God of Abraham.

This blessing came millenia before the Koran, and the invention of modern Islam.

 

[pcogperson]

I have read the document. I assent to it. It would be a sin of disobedience for me to say that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is not the same God that Islam points to.

What individual muslims believe they believe is up to them.

Then you have been lied to. 1 Cor 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

 

[PRmerger]

1 Cor 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

Amen!

Outside of the power of God, no one is saved!

Those who are joined to Him, formally, or informally, and to Christ, formally, or informally, and to His Body, the Catholic Church, formally or informally, will be saved.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus disagrees. As does the rest of the New Testament.

I am glad you are here, Gaelic. I hope that you will be able to learn that the NT does, in fact, teach that those who are invicibly ignorant can be saved. A read of Rom 2 might help.

Lily, you’d have a point if Protestants believed it was His blood and refused to worship it.

And I am not saying to worship God apart from Christ is false worship. Jesus is.

The verse being used here must be understood in context. It was written before the invention of Islam, and the composition of the Koran. It was written specifically against gnosticism and taking it out of that context to apply it to conditions that did not yet exist when it was written is not appropriate.

No, its not. Again, there’s no theological paralell between the eucharist and who God is in His being and persons.

I understand you wish there weren’t.

For the writer of that verse, the Real Presence was every bit as important, and integral with the hypostatic union.

 

[pcogperson]

The Trinity is like neapolitan ice cream. Three distinct flavors, one ice cream box.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all have the box of neapolitan ice cream, and hold onto it. Muslims and Jews only acknowledge the chocolate portion of the tri-flavored ice cream they hold in their hands. Same ice cream as us, but they only acknowledge one third of it.

Added bonus for this analogy; as Catholics, we actually eat the ice cream.

And as born again Christians, we are the ice cream. “Let no man deceive you.”—Eph. v: 6.

 

[Reuben_J]

Then you have been lied to. 1 Cor 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

Jn 6:53

 

[pcogperson]

This is exactly what people say to deny our Mother, Please be careful when lifting passages from Scripture without context.

I can name one; the Old Testament.

Mary CANNOT save you. She did not die on the cross or shed her blood for you!

 

[pcogperson]

Well no one knows if Muslims are going to heaven. As far as we are concerned, the best bet to getting to heaven is if someone is Catholic. Or at least the best bet to having a good understanding of moral life is if one listens to the Church (Its not a secret that there are devout Muslims who think it brings God pleasure if they murder a lot of infidels). Hence we must always try to evangelize them when presented with the opportunity. We can start our conversations by using the common ground i.e. “we both believe in the same God, right?..”

“best bet to getting to heaven is if someone is Catholic???” The best bet is to accept the Lord Jesus as your personal Savior!

 

[PRmerger]

Mary CANNOT save you. She did not die on the cross or shed her blood for you!

This is very Catholic of you to say, pcog.

 

[PRmerger]

“best bet to getting to heaven is if someone is Catholic???” The best bet is to accept the Lord Jesus as your personal Savior!

And the ONLY way you know this, pcog, is because the Catholic Church preserved this for you and proclaimed it for you and presented it to you as the inspired Word of God.

You would not know it any other way.

Incidentally, see how Catholics believe we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)