How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[SteveVH]

Steve, there’s not a single Muslim alive who does not know the Trinity or that Christians proclaim the divinity of Christ. The Quran explicitly mentions and denies it!

But what they have been told are lies based upon a false prophet and an extremely anti-anything-not-Muslim atmosphere. So they have not heard the truth and rejected it. They have heard a falsified version. As I have said, if they have heard and understood the truth and rejected it then they will pay the consequences. But you cannot assign culpability to one who is ignorant of the truth.

 

[Mickey]

But I would never say that these Protestants are not worshiping the true Christ.

Nor should you…because many of them are very devout Christians and they devote their lives to Him. Christ says that where two or more are gathered together in my name…

Similarly, Muslims and Jews are worshiping God, but without the fullness of the truth of the Trinity.

No. Not similarly. Muslims and Jews deny Christ. They deny Him completely as God the Son. They reject the Trinity completely.

 

[PRmerger]

Not really, no…for a couple of reasons. Chiefly because, as Mickey noted, many Protestants accept it. I’m sympathetic to it, at least in some sense.

Sympathetic doesn’t cut it. :nope:

But saying the understanding of the eucharist is that Christ is not present and saying He can’t be present because He is just a human prophet is absurdly different

Ok.

But who has been positing that absurd parallel? Certainly not me.

 

[triumphguy]

Yes I can. They deny that Jesus Christ is God the Son.
Is that what you are saying? It is invincible ignorance? Is that what Nostrae Aetate is saying? It is invincible ignorance?

NA is not really going into “invincible ignorance” it’s more about the respect due to other religions, and in some cases our common heritage.

 

[Mickey]

We do not need to only submit to infallible statements.

Really? You must submit to everything written by the Pope?

 

[choliks]

Nor should you…because many of them are very devout Christians and they devote their lives to Him. Christ says that where two or more are gathered together in my name…
No. Not similarly. Muslims and Jews deny Christ. They deny Him completely as God the Son. They reject the Trinity completely.

Just one quick question Mickey: is this the official stand/teaching of the Eastern Churches?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

But what they have been told are lies based upon a false prophet and an extremely anti-anything-not-Muslim atmosphere. So they have not heard the truth and rejected it. They have heard a falsified version. As I have said, if they have heard and understood the truth and rejected it then they will pay the consequences. But you cannot assign culpability to one who is ignorant of the truth.

There’s much that the Quran gets wrong, yes. It still denies He is God.

Steve, what did Jesus tell the Pharisees and other Jews who rejected Him? Did they profess to worship the God of Abraham?

 

[Mickey]

If one follows the paradigm that is being presented by some on this thread, then to be consistent the answer would be a resounding NO!

Fortunately, if we follow the Catholic paradigm we say: yes, they can still be called Christians. Just as we call Muslims and Jews part of the faith of Abraham, worshiping the same God we do.

Uh-oh…she’s breakin’ out the paradigms again.

 

[SteveVH]

If one follows the paradigm that is being presented by some on this thread, then to be consistent the answer would be a resounding NO!

Fortunately, if we follow the Catholic paradigm we say: yes, they can still be called Christians. Just as we call Muslims and Jews part of the faith of Abraham, worshiping the same God we do.

Abslolutely. I’m just really, really glad that God is the judge and not some of the folks on this thread (including myself).

 

[PRmerger]

Nor should you…because many of them are very devout Christians and they devote their lives to Him.

Yes, and many folks are devout Jews and Muslims who devote their lives to God.

They just don’t get it right about the Trinity.

No. Not similarly. Muslims and Jews deny Christ. They deny Him completely as God the Son. They reject the Trinity completely.

And some Protestants deny Christ in the Eucharist completely and utterly.

Have you ever been in a discussion with the Protestant poster here named Radical? Would you dare to declare him to not be a Christian because of his vehement objection to the dogma of the Real Presence?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Sympathetic doesn’t cut it. :nope:

Ok.

But who has been positing that absurd parallel? Certainly not me.

You have.by even comparing the two. If you want to argue that Protestants are committing grave error by rejecting the eucharist, fine…but its not a disagreement over the fact of what is confessed about the Person.

 

[PRmerger]

Really? You must submit to everything written by the Pope?

Everything that is being presented as the deposit of faith. Whether it’s infallible or not. :yup:

And Nostrae Aetate falls into that category.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Abslolutely. I’m just really, really glad that God is the judge and some of the foks on this thread (including myself).

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

He already has judged, Steve…

 

[PRmerger]

You have.by even comparing the two. If you want to argue that Protestants are committing grave error by rejecting the eucharist, fine…but its not a disagreement over the fact of what is confessed about the Person.

Right.

Protestants get it wrong with their denial of the Eucharist. But they still worship the same Christ we do.

Muslims and Jews get it wrong with their denial of the Trinity. But they still worship the same God we do.

You must be able to see the parallel, Gaelic. I am certain of it.

Now, don’t try to cross reference the parallels by saying absurdities like, “But Protestants believe in the Trinity” or “Muslims deny the Eucharist”. That’s an error that a basic logic class teaches against.

A : a :: B : b

Do not make this error: “So you are saying that A = B and a = b”

 

[Mickey]

Just one quick question Mickey: is this the official stand/teaching of the Eastern Churches?

If you are asking if we have some type of encyclical from a Patriarch that states we must believe that the Muslims/Jews worship the same God as the Christians…the answer is no.

 

[Mickey]

Yes, and many folks are devout Jews and Muslims who devote their lives to God.

They just don’t get it right about the Trinity.

There’s an understatement. They reject the existence of Christ as the Son of God.
“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23)

 

[choliks]

If you are asking if we have some type of encyclical from a Patriarch that states we must believe that the Muslims/Jews worship the same God as the Christians…the answer is no.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Right.

Protestants get it wrong with their denial of the Eucharist. But they still worship the same Christ we do.

Muslims and Jews get it wrong with their denial of the Trinity. But they still worship the same God we do.

You must be able to see the parallel, Gaelic. I am certain of it.

Now, don’t try to cross reference the parallels by saying absurdities like, “But Protestants believe in the Trinity” or “Muslims deny the Eucharist”. That’s an error that a basic logic class teaches against.

A : a :: B : b

Do not make this error: “So you are saying that A = B and a = b”

No parallel at all.

Christ is God. To not worship Christ (or the Spirit) is to not worship God.

 

[Mickey]

No parallel at all.

Christ is God. To not worship Christ is to not worship God.

 

[SteveVH]

There’s much that the Quran gets wrong, yes. It still denies He is God.

Steve, what did Jesus tell the Pharisees and other Jews who rejected Him? Did they profess to worship the God of Abraham?

Okay, you’re misunderstanding me completley. Anyone who rejects Jesus, after knowing the truth of who he is, is probably condemned, yet we would still commend them to the mercy of God. Jesus was in their presence and they definitely heard the truth. Those that rejected that truth will pay the consequences.

We are speaking of 1.62 billion people, many of whom live under circumstances that are, shall we say, less than friendly to Christian evangelization. It is a crime in nearly all Muslim countries to even have a Bible, or wear a cross. So please don’t tell me that they all understand the truth about Jesus and reject that truth.