How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

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Gaelic_Bard said:
Do the Jews misunderstand it, too, Steve?
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Islam is a flase religion in which its adherents have been taught a false perception of Jesus Christ. It does however, have common roots with Judaism and Christianity and professes a belief in one God and responds to this one God with worship.

Judaism is a true religion which has not recognized its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

God does not judge us with a sweeping brush. He judges us individually, based upon what truth has been revealed to us and how we have responded to that truth. If one has received the revelation of Jesus Christ and denies him then that person is in mortal danger. If one is ignorant of the truth (making it, therefore, impossible to deny) he is judged accordingly.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Let me clarify something Steve. The situation you describe above is not what we are discussing. We’re not talking here about the salvation of individual Muslims. Now, I don’t necessarily agree with invincible ignorance but we’re not discussing the fate of those who haven’t heard the gospel. We are discussing specifically here whether the god of the religion of Islam is the same God worshiped by Christians. It is to that that I am emphatically saying no to. Because Christ is God and Islam does not worship Christ.

What you describe above is connected but only tangentially. You could say Hindus are under invincible ignorance but that does not mean Brahma is the Godb of Abraham.
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But Hindus don’t make the claim that their gods are the same as the God of Abraham, nor do we. Nor does the Hindu faith in any way bear even the most superficial relationship to the Abrahamic religions.

Besides which I think invincible ignorance is critical. All who are saved, regardless of which faith they formally belong to, surely have Christ and the Father - so do all those good and invincibly ignorant Muslims.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Let me clarify something Steve. The situation you describe above is not what we are discussing. We’re not talking here about the salvation of individual Muslims. Now, I don’t necessarily agree with invincible ignorance but we’re not discussing the fate of those who haven’t heard the gospel. We are discussing specifically here whether the god of the religion of Islam is the same God worshiped by Christians. It is to that that I am emphatically saying no to. Because Christ is God and Islam does not worship Christ.

What you describe above is connected but only tangentially. You could say Hindus are under invincible ignorance but that does not mean Brahma is the Godb of Abraham.
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I understand completley. The conversation has developed a little over time, hasn’t it? Anyway, as I have said more than once, yes, the Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, therefore they worship the same God. But just like the Greeks, they do not know him because they do not know Jesus Christ. They do not understand God as Father, much less Son and Holy Spirit. It is a false religion about a true God.
 
SteveVH said:
Islam is a flase religion in which its adherents have been taught a false perception of Jesus Christ. It does however, have common roots with Judaism and Christianity and professes a belief in one God and responds to this one God with worship.

Judaism is a true religion which has not recognized its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.
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With Judaism, yes, because God did in fact reveal Himself to the Israelites. The same can’t be said for Islam. It’s a borrowing of some Judaic concepts at best. The idea behind this is that the god proclaimed by the religion does not exist, as is the case with Islam. Judaism’s god does not exist in the sense that God is not mono with respect to Persons. I can say neither adores the true God because the true God nursed at Mary’s breasts.
God does not judge us with a sweeping brush. He judges us individually, based upon what truth has been revealed to us and how we have responded to that truth. If one has received the revelation of Jesus Christ and denies him then that person is in mortal danger. If one is ignorant of the truth (making it, therefore, impossible to deny) he is judged accordingly.
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All I can say to this is that God reveals his law to all men. God will judge men on the basis of that law. All men have broken that law. Faith in Christ is necessary to receive pardon from that judgment. Not all men will be judged for rejecting Christ. That doesnt mean they wont be for their other sins.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Respecting a Muslim as a person made in the image of God, who is loved by that God so that God has ransomed him with His blood is not to respect the religion that denies He has done so.

I trust in His mercy to those who believe and confess that Christ is Lord who has been raised from the dead.
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Gaelic,

God is God of all, Greek, Muslim, Jew, Gentile, and as the OT Jew believed that Circumcision was of the flesh then those that believe wagging your lips confessing is of the same excellence, oh no, by no means it is of the heart…the real child of God is the one that does what it is God wants and even the Muslim that knows nothing of what you say does what it is God wants, is baptized of the heart and will be rewarded…
3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
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These people are far from the fullness of truth and God is their judge and I am sure you can imagine that through no fault of their own they are imposed these beliefs…God is merciful and you can imagine if these that are far will be judged by God then those that are that much closer, know what it is they don’t know and have access to what it is they don’t know

Will be judged also, for it is near…for those that can weigh the truth and far for those that cannot…yet all will be dealt with by God without partiality…
 
SteveVH said:
I understand completley. The conversation has developed a little over time, hasn’t it? Anyway, as I have said more than once, yes, the Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, therefore they worship the same God. But just like the Greeks, they do not know him because they do not know Jesus Christ. They do not understand God as Father, much less Son and Holy Spirit. It is a false religion about a true God.
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They may claim to worship Him. God does not receive it unless it is through the Son, in the Spirit.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
They may claim to worship Him. God does not receive it unless it is through the Son, in the Spirit.
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Gaelic,

And since they know not the Son, they honor a God that honors them in their pursuit through the Son in His mercy…🙂
 
montfortian said:
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)
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So here is the deal, I have a friend that I know for years now. He has a wife. To be honest, my knowledge about him is partial compared to his wife knowledge about him.
Does this mean I relate to a different person to the one known by my friend’s wife?

Compare this. My knowledge about God perhaps is not as fully as the Church wish me to have. Even more my friend’s kids which only 5 years old which understanding of God is very partial (what is Nature or Hypostasis for a 5 years old?). This kid has a sister, 3 years old now, which I don’t know what is God in her head at the moment.
Does this mean each one of us, worship different Gods?

If yes, then we are following Descartes too much here. We reject objective reality, that there are only realities, each are different reality created by our mind and senses and understanding. And most probably, each of us are not worshiping the right enough God, but only an idol perception created by our own mind.

Which is a very ingredients needed to create good relativism. Truth then, even if exists, is unknown to each one of us. We can only have truths, each created by our own mind, understanding, abilities and inability. Since each of us only have imperfect truth, but never the full of it, well… each is equally valid (or each is equally fantasy)…
 
CopticChristian said:
Gaelic,

And since they know not the Son, they honor a God that honors them in their pursuit through the Son in His mercy…🙂
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I would say that inasfar as where the Father is the Son and Spirit are also, that anyone who pursues the Father necessarily also pursues the Son and the Spirit. Their pursuit may be unknowing, but it is real nonetheless.
 
triumphguy said:
What about Catholics? Do they worship the same God as Baptists?
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Triumph,

Great question, I wonder if the word “some” is swimming in the mind preparing an answer…if so…gotta wonder don’t ya…🙂
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Absolutely. Catholic Trinitarianism, Christology, and pneumatology is wholly correct.
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Gaelic,

So glad to hear that…I suggest you get hold of this book

Christology and Eucharist in the Early Thought of Cyril of Alexandria

Happy to see you comin round…🙂
 
LilyM said:
I would say that inasfar as where the Father is the Son and Spirit are also, that anyone who pursues the Father necessarily also pursues the Son and the Spirit. Their pursuit may be unknowing, but it is real nonetheless.
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Where do Jesus and the apostles say this?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Where do Jesus and the apostles say this?
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For starters ‘whatsoever you did to the least of these, that you did to Me’. He did not go on to say ‘but only if you were formally Christian’.

For seconds ‘whoever is not against us is for us’. No genuine seeker of God is against any other genuine seeker of God. I have known numerous such of different faiths and found it to be so even of the non-Christians among them.

Then we have ‘anyone who loves is born of God and knows God’ (1 John 4:7-8) Again, no small print specifying that only those who were formally Christian qualify.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Absolutely. Catholic Trinitarianism, Christology, and pneumatology is wholly correct.
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Perhaps the question is do they worship the same Jesus. And from the rationale being offered here perhaps not. They have different understanding of who Jesus is despite the many similarities.
 
LilyM said:
For starters ‘whatsoever you did to the least of these, that you did to Me’. He did not go on to say ‘but only if you were formally Christian’.

For seconds ‘whoever is not against us is for us’. No genuine seeker of God is against any other genuine seeker of God. I have known numerous such of different faiths and found it to be so even of the non-Christians among them.

Then we have ‘anyone who loves is born of God and knows God’ (1 John 4:7-8) Again, no small print specifying that only those who were formally Christian qualify.
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👍
 
Reuben_J said:
Perhaps the question is do they worship the same Jesus. And from the rationale being offered here perhaps not.
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Here’s another way to look at it: we all worship the same Jesus, and the same God – we have to, there is only one, there is no “different” Jesus or “different” God… The question actually is, do others have the same understanding of Jesus and of God as we do?

Obviously (at least, to me), the answer is no. Next question – will they be punished, will they be denied Heaven, because they have a different understanding of the ultimate Truth? Which may not be their fault at all? Which brings us to – what is our understanding of the mercy of God?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Let me clarify something Steve. The situation you describe above is not what we are discussing. We’re not talking here about the salvation of individual Muslims.
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Correct.
Gaelic_Bard said:
Now, I don’t necessarily agree with invincible ignorance .
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Nor do I.
Gaelic_Bard said:
We are discussing specifically here whether the god of the religion of Islam is the same God worshiped by Christians. It is to that that I am emphatically saying no to. Because Christ is God and Islam does not worship Christ…
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Indeed.
 
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