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Mickey
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Most Christians do not believe this…even the majority of Catholics I know do not believe this…I even know Catholic monks who do not believe this.
How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?
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triumphguy
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What about the sacramental theology? Just askin’
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Reuben_J
Guest
That is a good analogy to understand the Catholic position of Muslims worshipping the same God as us. There is only one God as there is only one Jesus. Our understanding of that God may be different as we have different understanding of Jesus as compared to the Baptist. But it still refer to that one God and one Jesus.
Depending on which side of the fence we are, would the Baptists or the Catholics be saved. We probably would not know as salvation belongs to God and according to his mercy.
Actually we can take both positions as regards to the Muslims. They do not worship the same God because they do not believe in the Trinity or they worship the same God as us because there is only one God. We take the latter. It is probably more difficult to accept considering their objection to Jesus as both God and man. Yet this does not change the fact of what God is. Their wrong understanding of him does not change the truth about him. With that I think the Catholic position is only logical and realistic. It is also a position of charity in respecting another religion in what it purports to believe by giving that to them.
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wxornot
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The CCC does not stand on its own. It must have the backing of previous teachings. Previous teachings do not consider Muslims to worship the one true God.
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wxornot
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I’m with you. Too many have become PC and it’s wrong.Most Christians do not believe this…even the majority of Catholics I know do not believe this…I even know Catholic monks who do not believe this.
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clem456
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I have never found this to be true. There is all kinds of orthodox Catholic teaching that recognizes Islam’s belief in the God of Abraham, the one and same God we worship. I don’t think you’ll find any knowlegable person dispute this. In fact the only place I’ve heard people dispute that is HERE.Most Christians do not believe this…even the majority of Catholics I know do not believe this…I even know Catholic monks who do not believe this.
And here’s the only thing that matters: the Catholic Church recognnizes Islam’s belief in the God of Abraham.
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Gaelic_Bard
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No. It’s not relevant to the subject. It’s an apples to oranges comparison. I don’t agree with Lutheran or Presbyterian sacramental theology, either. They still worship the true God. Muslims do not.What about the sacramental theology? Just askin’
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clem456
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Using your logic, one could say that you and I do not worship the same God, because you do not believe in essential truths of the faith handed down from Christ and the Apostles. Yet I will not tell you that worship a different God.
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clem456
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The only thing Catholics need to be concerned with is, what does the Magisterium teach to us, right now, in the present.
And you may want to consider that people waaayyy smarter than you and I have been over this for 2000 years, and the current teaching is the fullest understanding of the issue. Do we have the competence to dispute that?
Ummmmm no.
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triumphguy
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I was just wondering if you were playing on the banks of the Tiber.
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clem456
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It’s not PC, it’s being obedient to what the Church teaches in truth.
Is that part of what you consider Tradition?
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Reuben_J
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Then by logic you have to assign which entity the Muslims worship. There are not many categories in the supernatural realm. If they do not worship the one and true God then they must worship the demon or at best the angel.
It cannot be the demon or even angel because their understanding of the attributes of God is very close to us except for Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
There are ninety nine attributes of the Muslims Allah. Among them Allah is the Creator, the merciful, forgiving, graceful, generous and practically what we attribute to the Triune God. That cannot be the demon or angel as they are not the Creator of the heaven and earth. So we have to be realistic about this. Their difference in belief does not change the truth of who and what God is. We can say that they have false prophet that did not reveal the fullness of truth as we know it or that their Scripture is in error but there is still one Creator of heaven and earth. And the attributes of Allah that they believe can only refer to that one God unless we can find another supernatural entity that fits them. We are faced with that reality no matter how much we disagree with the Muslims theologically.
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triumphguy
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Well we should ALWAYS read Church teaching as being in line with previous teaching, even if we, from our own standpoint don’t understand how it is.
There have been threads on this topic however, and it boils down to context.
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clem456
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It also boils down to being docile to the Holy Spirit and developing some obedience. If we don’t have a spirit of obedience nothing we read makes sense.
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triumphguy
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Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son.
One Father. Two sons, One inheritance, split between the two.
The first son stays faithful to his father and helps build the “kingdom.”
The second blows the money on his vices, and ends up living a religiously impure life among pigs.
When he returns remember how the Father rushes to meet him with open arms and a feast.
In my mind there are definite parallels with this topic.
One Father. Two sons, One inheritance, split between the two.
The first son stays faithful to his father and helps build the “kingdom.”
The second blows the money on his vices, and ends up living a religiously impure life among pigs.
When he returns remember how the Father rushes to meet him with open arms and a feast.
In my mind there are definite parallels with this topic.
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Gaelic_Bard
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I don’t see what that has to do with whether Allah is YHWH.
The statement of Jesus you quoted was in reference to a man who was not an apostle who was preaching Jesus. Muslims do not do that. Jesus said, “Whoever is not with ME is against ME” (Matt 12:30). Muslims are not seeking God. They think they have found him and he was not crucified, therefore, they’re not seeking Him. Faith is only as good as it’s object.
No one seeks for God. God seeks for them and He reveals Himself to them through the word of Christ.
Muslims are not born of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God (I John 5:1), everyone who is born of God loves and knows God. Muslims do not know God because they do not know Christ - whom He has sent. He is love. Allah is not.
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Gaelic_Bard
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God will do that for Muslims when they bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord.
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PRmerger
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Interesting, this.Most Christians do not believe this…even the majority of Catholics I know do not believe this…I even know Catholic monks who do not believe this.
Are you talking about contraception, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, divorce and re-marriage?
For all of the above would fit into your statement.
Point being made: it is irrelevant whether “most Christians” believe something. Most Christians get some doctrine wrong because they are creating a god in their own image, rather than conforming their views to Christ’s.
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triumphguy
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I agree. I mean that Church teaching in different centuries was in a particular context.
For instance before the Americas, and much of Africa and Asia were discovered when the Pope talked about the whole world being under the dominion of the Church it was geo-politically correct for the “known world”, even if not geographically accurate.
Also in many previous documents, the Pope is specifically addressing heretics and schismatics, not members of other world religions - there weren’t a lot of Hindus or Taoists floating round Italy in the 15th century.
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Gaelic_Bard
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If it is believed by the church that the god of Islam is the God of the apostles, martyrs and saints (many of whom were made martyrs by the adherents of the lonely god of Islam) then I will not be wading anywhere near the Tiber.I was just wondering if you were playing on the banks of the Tiber.
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