How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[PRmerger]

Using your logic, one could say that you and I do not worship the same God, because you do not believe in essential truths of the faith handed down from Christ and the Apostles. Yet I will not tell you that worship a different God.

'zactly.

It’s the same paradigm. To be consistent, one must say: Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same God as Christians, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same Christ as Catholics.

That would be the consistent position advocated by Gaelic.

OR, take the Catholic position.

Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same God, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

Not all men will be judged for rejecting Christ. That doesnt mean they wont be for their other sins.

Cannot the same be said for you and me?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Alright ya’ll, I just put this thread in for the Hot Topics email blast.
Please don’t make me regret it…
Debate nice.

 

[triumphguy]

God will do that for Muslims when they bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord.

The point of the parable of the Prodigal Son is that there is only One Father, and he is loving, no matter how his children behave, or what their motives and beliefs.

A subtext of the story is the dissatisfaction and possibly even jealousy of the son who stayed behind.

Catholics all believe in the same God, yet we all have our own idolatrous idols for Him due to our own broken and sinful nature.

God is beyond all our images of Him.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Cannot the same be said for you and me?

Not as Christians, no. We have an Advocate who if we confess before men, will confess us before the Father.

 

[SteveVH]

Most Christians do not believe this…even the majority of Catholics I know do not believe this…I even know Catholic monks who do not believe this.

Well, If Christianity were a democracy that might mean something.

 

[Reuben_J]

'zactly.

It’s the same paradigm. To be consistent, one must say: Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same God as Christians, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same Christ as Catholics.

That would be the consistent position advocated by Gaelic.

OR, take the Catholic position.

Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same God, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same Christ.

That says it all, efficiently in so little. We have to apply that same standard no matter how hard it is to take.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

The point of the parable of the Prodigal Son is that there is only One Father, and he is loving, no matter how his children behave, or what their motives and beliefs.

He loves universally. His salvation is only found in Christ.

Catholics all believe in the same God, yet we all have our own idolatrous idols for Him due to our own broken and sinful nature.

God is beyond all our images of Him.

The brokenness and idolatry that sinful Christians can fall into is swallowed up on the cross. Islam denies the cross.

God is not beyond our images. We have an ikon of God. He is the image of the invisible God.

 

[SteveVH]

Not as Christians, no. We have an Advocate who if we confess before men, will confess us before the Father.

You were speaking of being judged for sins other than denying Jesus. Sorry, we are all subject to that. It is why the sacrament of Reconcilitation was instituted.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

You were speaking of being judged for sins other than denying Jesus. Sorry, we are all subject to that. It is why the sacrament of Reconcilitation was instituted.

The sacrament of reconciliation only reconciles based on the reconciliation that Christ effected on the cross. Muslims have no way to be reconciled to the Father but by confessing that same cross.

 

[PRmerger]

He loves universally. His salvation is only found in Christ.

Amen! This is very Catholic, indeed!

Christ, however, is the Eternal Logos. The Word of Truth. Thus, anyone who embraces Truth, embraces Him.

 

[PRmerger]

The brokenness and idolatry that sinful Christians can fall into is swallowed up on the cross. Islam denies the cross.

And what do you propose that we Catholics say about Christians who deny the Eucharistic presence of Christ?

In this denial, do we claim that these Christians are worshipping a different God?

 

[Mickey]

I’m with you. Too many have become PC and it’s wrong.

Yes…I believe it is ecumenism at its worst.

 

[Mickey]

the Catholic Church recognnizes Islam’s belief in the God of Abraham.

Well…I have seen some real good polemics against such a statement from Catholics. And I have talked to many knowledgeable Catholics who state that they are not bound to believe that Christians and muslims worship the same God.

 

[SteveVH]

'zactly.

It’s the same paradigm. To be consistent, one must say: Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same God as Christians, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, therefore they don’t worship the same Christ as Catholics.

That would be the consistent position advocated by Gaelic.

OR, take the Catholic position.

Muslims get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same God, AND non-Catholic Christians get it wrong about a lot of things, but to the degree that they get it right, then they worship the same Christ.

Yes, this point has been made now in ten different ways and I can’t, for the life of me, understand what is so difficult to understand. It is apparently optional to believe in the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian faith and okay to reject the Church that Christ founded, as long as one professes some belief, whatever it may be, in Jesus. The definition of Christian has become so ambiguous that any and all, regardless of belief, demand to be known as “Christians”.

Now a Muslim, who professes a belief in the God of Abraham and worships him (I wish Christians would take their religion as seriously as most Muslims) apparently worships an entirely different God. If this isn’t a double standard I don’t know what is.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Amen! This is very Catholic, indeed!

Christ, however, is the Eternal Logos. The Word of Truth. Thus, anyone who embraces Truth, embraces Him.

Embracing truth only comes by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ; not by the word of Muhammad.

 

[Mickey]

Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son.

One Father. Two sons, One inheritance, split between the two.
The first son stays faithful to his father and helps build the “kingdom.”
The second blows the money on his vices, and ends up living a religiously impure life among pigs.

When he returns remember how the Father rushes to meet him with open arms and a feast.

In my mind there are definite parallels with this topic.

Huh? You are using the parable of the Prodigal Son to show that muslims and Christians worship the same God?

That parable is about repentance.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Yes, this point has been made now in ten different ways and I can’t, for the life of me, understand what is so difficult to understand. It is apparently optional to believe in the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian faith and okay to reject the Church that Christ founded, as long as one professes some belief, whatever it may be, in Jesus. The definition of Christian has become so ambiguous that any and all, regardless of belief, demand to be known as “Christians”.

Now a Muslim, who professes a belief in the God of Abraham and worships him (I wish Christians would take their religion as seriously as most Muslims) apparently worships an entirely different God. If this isn’t a double standard I don’t know what is.

What Catholicism feels Protestants are doing when they reject the Latin Church or the Eucharist is irrelevant to whether the god of Islam is the God of Abraham. It’s not a double standard because the Catholic Church worships Christ, therefore they worship God. Protestants worship Christ, therefore, they worship God. Muslims do not worship Christ, therefore, they do not worship God.

If Catholics did say that Protestants do not worship God, that would not change the fact that Muslims do not worship God.

 

[Mickey]

The statement of Jesus you quoted was in reference to a man who was not an apostle who was preaching Jesus. Muslims do not do that. Jesus said, “Whoever is not with ME is against ME” (Matt 12:30). Muslims are not seeking God. They think they have found him and he was not crucified, therefore, they’re not seeking Him. Faith is only as good as it’s object.

No one seeks for God. God seeks for them and He reveals Himself to them through the word of Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

Embracing truth only comes by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ; not by the word of Muhammad.

Yes, Muslims have been fed a lie. But they do posses truth as well. If they worship the God of Abraham they are worshipping Jesus without even knowing it. Remember, there is only one God.