How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

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Yes, this point has been made now in ten different ways and I can’t, for the life of me, understand what is so difficult to understand. It is apparently optional to believe in the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian faith and okay to reject the Church that Christ founded, as long as one professes some belief, whatever it may be, in Jesus. The definition of Christian has become so ambiguous that any and all, regardless of belief, demand to be known as “Christians”.

Now a Muslim, who professes a belief in the God of Abraham and worships him (I wish Christians would take their religion as seriously as most Muslims) apparently worships an entirely different God. If this isn’t a double standard I don’t know what is.
It is not difficult to understand. It is a choice not to give one’s assent to what the Church teaches, which is by definition the truth.

What does the Church teach? Muslims worship the God of Abraham, who is the same God we worship. They do not worship in the fullnes of truth, but it is the same God.

It is not difficult to understand, it is a choice we make in obedience, to give one’s assent to the truth as revealed by the Magisterium, or to choose our own prideful interpretations.
 
Yes, Muslims have been fed a lie. But they do posses truth as well. If they worship the God of Abraham they are worshipping Jesus without even knowing it. Remember, there is only one God.
All humans have a glimmer of the truth about God revealed to them; in creation, in the law of their conscience. Hindus, Muslims, atheists and Buddhists have this. As Paul says in Romans 1, they have enough of the truth to condemn them. Not to, however, save them.
 
Embracing truth only comes by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ; not by the word of Muhammad.
And yet the Good Samaritan, who had never heard of Christ, embraced the truth of “who is our neighbor” and proclaimed this truth by his actions.

What say you about this, Gaelic?
 
Are you talking about contraception…
Nope. The thread is about Catholics trying to say that the muslims have the same God.

If a Catholic believes that the muslim god is NOT the same as the Christian Trinitarian God…does your Church tell them that they are sinning?
 
Muslims are not seeking God. They think they have found him and he was not crucified, therefore, they’re not seeking Him. Faith is only as good as it’s object.

No one seeks for God. God seeks for them and He reveals Himself to them through the word of Christ.
Huh? 🤷
 
And yet the Good Samaritan, who had never heard of Christ, embraced the truth of “who is our neighbor” and proclaimed this truth by his actions.

What say you about this, Gaelic?
I say it was a parable. Now if Jesus said the Good Samaritan was a real person who rejected Him and was still saved, you might have a point.
 
All humans have a glimmer of the truth about God revealed to them; in creation, in the law of their conscience. Hindus, Muslims, atheists and Buddhists have this. As Paul says in Romans 1, they have enough of the truth to condemn them. Not to, however, save them.
And this, too, is very Catholic.

No one here is pontificating on the salvation of Muslims or Jews. We can hope. We just don’t know.

All that is being presented is that it’s the same God, to the degree that they get it right:

Muslims proclaim Allah is all merciful. That is absolutely correct.
Muslims proclaim that Allah is creator. That is absolutely correct.
Muslims proclaim we must submit our will to the Divine Will. That is absolutely correct.

Some of the “99 Beautiful Names of God (Asma al-Husna)” in the Koran are: the Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds.

What’s to disagree with on these points?

Allah is also transcendent and not a part of his creation.

They got that right, too.

Now, the inevitable response will be, "And Muslims also proclaim this "

Yep. Muslims surely have lots of wrong beliefs.

Yet in proclaiming the above statements about God they have submitted to the Truth and for that we celebrate!
 
I say it was a parable. Now if Jesus said the Good Samaritan was a real person who rejected Him and was still saved, you might have a point.
You’re saying Jesus gave an example of something that’s not true? Really?

He gave an example of a person who knew the truth without ever knowing Him, but this is not to be understood as an example of a person who knew the truth without ever knowing Him?
 
You’re saying Jesus gave an example of something that’s not true? Really?

He gave an example of a person who knew the truth without ever knowing Him, but this is not to be understood as an example of a person who knew the truth without ever knowing Him?
Again, when Jesus gives an example of someone to whom the Trinitarian God has been revealed and rejects it but is still saved, you might have a point.
 
And this, too, is very Catholic.

No one here is pontificating on the salvation of Muslims or Jews. We can hope. We just don’t know.

All that is being presented is that it’s the same God, to the degree that they get it right:

Muslims proclaim Allah is all merciful. That is absolutely correct.
Allah is not merciful. He commands others to die for Him. God died for us. That is mercy.
Muslims proclaim that Allah is creator. That is absolutely correct.
The Allah of Islam created nothing. Islam created Allah. The true God - Jesus Christ - is the creator
Muslims proclaim we must submit our will to the Divine Will. That is absolutely correct.
Christianity says in order to submit our will to the divine will, the divine Son must submit His will to the divine Father.
Some of the “99 Beautiful Names of God (Asma al-Husna)” in the Koran are: the Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds.
There is no name under heaven by which we must be saved. Only the name of Jesus.
 
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?
Ask yourself a slightly different question: “Do the Jews worship the same God as Christians?”

The Jews do not accept the Trinity, they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah and they have many other differences with Christianity. Despite that, I suspect that the majority of Christians accept that the Jews worship the same God, though they do have some mistaken ideas about Him.

In a similar way, the Moslems worship the same God, the God of Abraham, but they also have some mistaken ideas about Him.

It seems to me that Nostra Aetate takes the correct attitude. Jews, Christians and Moslems all worship the God of Abraham.

$0.02

rossum
 
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)
From the document Nostrae Aetate

Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

One could notice immediately, Re:The underlined, even the Jews don’t believe in that.

Father Griffith: from Catholic University, was interviewed by Zenit.

Fr Griffin says the following

*The Koran mentions both Jesus and Mary a number of times, always in terms of great personal esteem. *

*Most importantly, in Chapter 4, Verse 171, the Koran presents Jesus, the son of Mary, as the Messiah, as God’s messenger; Jesus is seen as a word of God which he cast into Mary, and a spirit from him, who is nevertheless, in God’s sight like Adam, a creature — according to Chapter 3, Verse 59. *

*At one point the Koran says God asked Jesus, “Did you tell people to take you and your mother as two gods?” — a question that Jesus answered in Chapter 5, Verse 116, saying, “It is not given me to say what is untrue.” Clearly, in the Islamic view, both Jesus and Mary are human beings. *

*The Koran regularly follows the mention of Jesus, the Messiah, with the epithet “son of Mary,” as if explicitly to deny the Christian belief that Jesus is the “Son of God.” *

*At one point the Koran denies that Jesus’ adversaries killed or crucified him, saying in Chapter 5, Verse 157, “it only seemed so to them,” a statement that most Muslims take to mean that Jesus did not in fact die on the cross. *

On the basis of a number of other passages in the Koran, most Muslims believe that there will be a role for Jesus on the final day of reckoning. Many Sufis, Muslim mystics, revere Jesus as a model holy man.

As I see it, the purpose of Nostrae Aetate is to get people in the mood to seek ways to dialogue with Moslems, and find where there is common ground 1st. Then, where it’s possible, seek to correct errors. One can’t do any of that without 1st being in the mood to establish a relationship. That doesn’t translate otoh to caving in on recognizing realities. We can clearly see where their errors are. Yet in some respects, as one can also see, putting this positively, the Moslems recognize some truths that Jews don’t recognize, albeit still shadowy for them.
 
I believe they do worship the same God, as the Church acknowledges, for the following reasons.

First, I think there should be noted a difference between worshipping God in Spirit and in truth, being in the grace of the Father or having Him, etc., and worshipping God according to the virtue of religion (which is not a theological virtue, but falls under justice).

St. Thomas defines this virtue in the Summa as “to show reverence to one God under one aspect, namely, as the first principle of the creation and government of things.” newadvent.org/summa/3081.htm

Can Muslims do this? They certainly worship “God” as First Principle and Supreme Governor of all things, but is it the same God we know? Can one acknowledge the one God without acknowledging the Trinity?

First, it needs to be pointed out that faith is required to acknowledge the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be reasoned out, as St. Vincent Ferrer explains:
St. Vincent Ferrer:
Concerning the use of the intelligence with regard to the Trinity, St. Thomas asks whether the Trinity of the Divine Persons can be known by natural reasoning. He answers: “It is impossible to attain to the knowledge of the Trinity by natural reason.” For man can obtain the knowledge of God by natural reason only from creatures. Now creatures lead us to God as effects do to their cause. Accordingly, by natural reason we can know of God that only which of necessity belongs to him as the principle of all things. Now, the creative power of God is common to the whole Trinity; and hence it belongs to the unity of the essence, and not to the distinction of the Persons. Therefore by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the Persons. Whoever, then, tries to prove the Trinity of Persons by natural reason, derogates from faith.
Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, from reason alone, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma. The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone (Dei Filius, Canon 2.1) and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20).

Therefore, one can acknowledge the one God and Creator of all things without having faith and acknowledging the Trinity. But do Muslims do this?

How can we say whether or not we are talking about the same thing? It is the essence of the thing that determines what it is. If we acknowledge the same essence, we acknowledge the same thing. What we can say about the essence of God is that it is the same as His existence. This is summed up as “God is” or, in His own words, “I AM” or “I AM who AM.” (Exo. 3:14)

This concept is formally referred to as the “aesity” of God. Essentially, aesity means self-existence. Aesity explains the metaphysical nature of God as a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality. God is not a being that is created by another god; neither does God create Himself into existence. Rather, God has always existed as an unchanging, completely actualized being. God has his Being of himself and to himself such that he is absolute being and the very definition of existence (Acts 17:22-28). Since God’s existence is the same as his essence, it follows that God is existence. (Note: this not to assert pantheism. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not possess the essence of God. Therefore, no other being can be said to be a god or share a part in godhead since they exist solely on a contingency.) This concept is at the root of the definition of all of God’s other perfections because if God is absolute being he must logically contain in Himself all perfections of being.

Since God’s essence is existence, if one acknowledges His essence, one can only acknowledge He who exists–it is impossible to acknowledge a completely actualized being that is not the true God. Similarly, there cannot exist two of such beings, because then neither would contain in Himself all perfections of being. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Essence and Existence gives the Thomist position on this:

-If essence and existence were but one thing, we should be unable to conceive the one without conceiving the other. But we are as a fact able to conceive of essence by itself.
-If there be no real distinction between the two, then the essence is identical with the existence. But in God alone are these identical.
newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm

In other words, when essence and existence are but one thing, we cannot conceive of one without conceiving of the other. And this is the case only with God. Therefore, to conceive a being with aesity is to conceive of the one God who exists–it’s impossible to conceive of something where essence and existence are identical, but that is not God.

Since Muslims do conceive of God as being completely self-actualized as far as I can tell (see here for example)–of being non-contingent–as having aesity, then they therefore can only be said to acknowledge the one God who exists and it is to Him that they honor as First Principle and Creator according to the virtue of religion.

I would say therefore that we know God; they know of God. We worship Him in Spirit and in Truth and serve Him in supernatural faith, they worship only in a natural way–but they do adore Him, despite their other errors.
 
Amen! 👍

and

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.
What about those that deny Him in the Eucharist, Mickey?

What say you about them? Are they worshipping the same Jesus we are? Yes, or no?
 
Again, when Jesus gives an example of someone to whom the Trinitarian God has been revealed and rejects it but is still saved, you might have a point.
But you didn’t answer the question, Gaelic.

Do you think Jesus gave an example of a person who knew a truth without knowing him, but didn’t really mean it? Yes, or no?
 
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?
By realizing that “your” faith and common sense do not trump the legitimate teachings of the Church.

Whenever you come across something that you find incompatible with “your” faith and common sense, give the benefit of doubt to the Church and start from the position that you are probably mistaken.
 
This concept is formally referred to as the “aesity” of God. Essentially, aesity means self-existence. Aesity explains the metaphysical nature of God as a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality.
This post comes from the “fisheaters” forum. :hmmm:
 
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