How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

  • Thread starter Thread starter montfortian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gaelic_Bard said:
What Catholicism feels Protestants are doing when they reject the Latin Church or the Eucharist is irrelevant to whether the god of Islam is the God of Abraham. It’s not a double standard because the Catholic Church worships Christ, therefore they worship God. Protestants worship Christ, therefore, they worship God. Muslims do not worship Christ, therefore, they do not worship God.

If Catholics did say that Protestants do not worship God, that would not change the fact that Muslims do not worship God.
Click to expand...
But the analogy applies, Gaelic. You have one person stating that they believe in Jesus Christ while rejecting 2000 years of Christianity, yet we are to believe that they worship the same Christ. You have another person who states that they believe in the God of Abraham while being ignorant of Jesus Christ and it is somehow fair to say they do not worship the same God.

The Muslim understanding of God is most definately flawed. But I could say the same thing about most Protestant understandings of Jesus Christ. Why is one okay and the other not okay?
 
clem456 said:
It is not difficult to understand. It is a choice not to give one’s assent to what the Church teaches, which is by definition the truth.

What does the Church teach? Muslims worship the God of Abraham, who is the same God we worship. They do not worship in the fullnes of truth, but it is the same God.

It is not difficult to understand, it is a choice we make in obedience, to give one’s assent to the truth as revealed by the Magisterium, or to choose our own prideful interpretations.
Click to expand...
Thank you! 👍
 
wxornot said:
I’m with you. Too many have become PC and it’s wrong.
Click to expand...
This has nothing whatsoever to do with political correctness. I think the Catholic Church is the last institution that could be accused of political correctness. Consider its stance on issues such as contraception, abortion, same sex marriage, divorce. Does it appear that the church gives one iota about political correctness?
 
Genesis315 said:
Any thoughts on the argument?
Click to expand...
You have lots of metaphysical rationalizations and Thomistic references in your arguments…but honestly…I can’t see where you have shown that muslims worship the same God of the Christians. The muslims do not recognize the Trinitarian God…the true God. They reject God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they are not worshipping the true God.

Do you have any Scriptural and patristic sources to support your belief that muslims worship the Trinitarian God…despite the fact that they admit they do not worship the Trinitarian God?
 
Mickey said:
The muslims do not recognize the Trinitarian God…the true God. They reject God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they are not worshipping the true God.
Click to expand...
Do Jews recognise the Trinitarian God? Do they worship the same God as Christians?
Do you have any Scriptural and patristic sources to support your belief that muslims worship the Trinitarian God…despite the fact that they admit they do not worship the Trinitarian God?
Click to expand...
Lets rephrase that slightly:

Do you have any Scriptural and patristic sources to support your belief that Jews worship the Trinitarian God…despite the fact that they admit they do not worship the Trinitarian God?

You need to think a little wider on this, I suspect.

rossum
 
Alfonsus said:
So here is the deal, I have a friend that I know for years now. He has a wife. To be honest, my knowledge about him is partial compared to his wife knowledge about him.
Does this mean I relate to a different person to the one known by my friend’s wife?

Compare this. My knowledge about God perhaps is not as fully as the Church wish me to have. Even more my friend’s kids which only 5 years old which understanding of God is very partial (what is Nature or Hypostasis for a 5 years old?). This kid has a sister, 3 years old now, which I don’t know what is God in her head at the moment.
Does this mean each one of us, worship different Gods?
Click to expand...
Right on. God is the ultimate “other”. God-us is a relationship, a covenant, not a dry contract of mere rules and obligations (although the rules and obligations are also present in a covenant).

So many of our misunderstandings could be avoided if we thought about and lived our faith as a relationship. The ramifications are huge. The human relationships you reference are a great image of our relationship with God. These analogies do fail though, because we are limited in our humanity. We cannot give infinite good things to one another. However, our relationship with God is graced with infinite abundance, more good than we can imagine. The Church recognizes this when it recognizes God’s generosity to all people. Of course individual choice to participate in this relationship is on us.
 
Mickey said:
Well…I have seen some real good polemics against such a statement from Catholics. And I have talked to many knowledgeable Catholics who state that they are not bound to believe that Christians and muslims worship the same God. 🤷
Click to expand...
As knowledgeable as 2,221 Bishops and a Pope?
 
Mickey said:
Well…I have seen some real good polemics against such a statement from Catholics. And I have talked to many knowledgeable Catholics who state that they are not bound to believe that Christians and muslims worship the same God. 🤷
Click to expand...
And I have seen many people dispute the actual teaching of the Church,
so your point is…?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Again, when Jesus gives an example of someone to whom the Trinitarian God has been revealed and rejects it but is still saved, you might have a point.
Click to expand...
In John 6 Christ is very explicit.
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Click to expand...
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Click to expand...
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Click to expand...
If a person rejects this teaching are they a Christian?
 
triumphguy said:
As knowledgeable as 2,221 Bishops and a Pope?
Click to expand...
What your Pope and bishops say and write is not binding on me. But let me ask you a question.

Is it a sin according to the Catholic Church if you do not believe that the muslims worship the same God as the Christians?
 
Mickey said:
Well…I have seen some real good polemics against such a statement from Catholics. And I have talked to many knowledgeable Catholics who state that they are not bound to believe that Christians and muslims worship the same God. 🤷
Click to expand...
There is only one God - so either they worship Him, or not at all. But they do worship so, enen though they get it wrong for the most part they still worship Him. Otherwise we have to propose that there are other gods - I don’t think so!
 
Mickey said:
Well…I have seen some real good polemics against such a statement from Catholics. And I have talked to many knowledgeable Catholics who state that they are not bound to believe that Christians and muslims worship the same God. 🤷
Click to expand...
Mickey said:
What your Pope and bishops say and write is not binding on me. But let me ask you a question.

Is it a sin according to the Catholic Church if you do not believe that the muslims worship the same God as the Christians?
Click to expand...
You can’t play the “What your Pope and bishops say and write is not binding on me” card when you are stating that “*Well…I have seen some real good polemics against such a statement from Catholics. And I have talked to many knowledgeable Catholics who state that they are not bound to believe that Christians and muslims worship the same God. *🤷”

Is it a sin according to the Catholic Church if you do not believe that the muslims worship the same God as the Christians?

It’s disobedience to the Church to refuse to accept Church teaching once you know what the teaching is. Perhaps you could say that prudential judgment plays a part, but I wold say you would need a very strong argument against 2221 bishops and a Pope.
 
triumphguy said:
You can’t play the “What your Pope and bishops say and write is not binding on me” card
Click to expand...
Sure I can. This teaching about the muslims worship the same God is relatively innovative. I cannot find anything similar that dates earlier than the 20th century.🤷
triumphguy said:
It’s disobedience to the Church to refuse to accept Church teaching.
Click to expand...
Is it a sin to believe that the muslims do not worship the same God as the Christians?
 
triumphguy said:
It’s disobedience to the Church to refuse to accept Church teaching.
Click to expand...
This is the nut of it right here. There are several threads on at CAF right now, to which this simple sentence is the answer to.

A favorite gripe is that one cannot understand Church teaching, that it’s vague, that it’s contradictory, etc… If one chooses not to accept, one cannot possibly understand. Faith is a gift, but we have to make a conscious choice to accept it, It’s not the Church’s responsibility to force feed us. We have to make a choice to accept.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top