How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

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jmcrae said:
There is only one God
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Correct…and that God is Trinitarian. I do not know what or who the muslims are worshipping…but it is not the true God…the Trinitarian God.

**“**Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171, Koran)
“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23, Bible)
 
Mickey said:
You have lots of metaphysical rationalizations and Thomistic references in your arguments…but honestly…I can’t see where you have shown that muslims worship the same God of the Christians. The muslims do not recognize the Trinitarian God…the true God. They reject God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they are not worshipping the true God.

Do you have any Scriptural and patristic sources to support your belief that muslims worship the Trinitarian God…despite the fact that they admit they do not worship the Trinitarian God?
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It seems your argument is basically one cannot acknowdege God without acknowledging the three Divine Persons.

According to Scripture, God can be known without access to revelation (Rom. 1:20). This is why St. Paul could say the Greek altar could be dedicated to the same God he was preaching (Acts 17:23), despite the fact that they were not Christians (and therefore did not acknowledge the Trinity).

But no one can reason out the Trinity–it is a mystery of faith that must be revealed (Luke 10:21-22). For example, the truth Christ is the Son of God had to be revealed to St. Peter for him to acknowledge it (Matt. 16:16).

Therefore, if one can acknowledge God from looking at the natural world, but cannot acknowledge the Divine Persons without revelation, then one must be able to acknowledge God without acknowdging the three Persons.

I don’t know much Patristic writing on Islam in particular, other than that of St. John of Damascus, but he seems to support my argument. He says they were idolators until a certain period (they worshipped Aphrodite and the morning star), then Mohammed came around and they became heretics. Now he considers them “mutilators” of God. So they went from committing idolatry (giving divine honor to something other than God) to mutilating God. Mutilation does not change a things essence; one would not say those who adore Zeus or Tlaloc or, in this case, Aphrodite, mutlilates God. To mutlilate God you have to be talking about God. Therefore, it seems according to St. John, Muslim doctrine obscures things about God, it doesn’t offer a different God like their pre-Muhammed religion did.

Here’s his text:

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
 
Mickey said:
Huh??? The Good Samaritan IS Christ. :ehh:
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Mickey,

I am not so sure that I would say this…however I do see in looking that Patristic views suggest this…

Jesus told the woman, Samaritan at the well, that Samaritans worshipped what they did not know…so for Jesus to be a Samaritan He would worship what He does not know…

and

The neighbor is “who is one like you”…in other words Samaritans recognized Samaritans and Jews recognized Jews as neighbors. So for the Samaritan to extend to another not Samaritan was understanding that even someone not Samaritan was neighbor as if Samaritan

and in doing so

created an understanding that Samaritans can love God and love neighbor even though they worshiped what they did not know…
 
montfortian said:
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?
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SIMPLY PUT:

**Believe “in the same God” IS NOT believe in the same Savior or means of salvation.

That’s the whole truth and nothing but the true so help me God**👍
 
Genesis315 said:
It seems your argument is basically one cannot acknowdege God without acknowledging the three Divine Persons.
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The Christian God is Trinitarian. The muslims do not worship the Trinitarian God…they will tell you that to your face.
Genesis315 said:
Therefore, if one can acknowledge God from looking at the natural world, but cannot acknowledge the Divine Persons without revelation, then one must be able to acknowledge God without acknowdging the three Persons.
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So then you are saying that either the muslim has not been exposed to the Trinitarian teaching…or they are operating out of the Roman Catholic concept of invincible ignorance. Is that what Nostrae Aetate says to you?
Genesis315 said:
I don’t know much Patristic writing on Islam in particular, other than that of St. John of Damascus, but he seems to support my argument.
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I think he seems to support my argument. He certainly does not say that they worship the same God as the Christians. As a matter of fact he calls them: **“the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now.” **
And now let me ask you: If a Catholic refuses to believe that the muslims worship the same God as the Christians…is it a sin?
 
Mickey said:
Sure I can. This teaching about the muslims worship the same God is relatively innovative. I cannot find anything similar that dates earlier than the 20th century.🤷
Is it a sin to believe that the muslims do not worship the same God as the Christians?
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I have read the document. I assent to it. It would be a sin of disobedience for me to say that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is not the same God that Islam points to.

What individual muslims believe they believe is up to them.
 
Mickey said:
Correct…and that God is Trinitarian. I do not know what or who the muslims are worshipping…but it is not the true God…the Trinitarian God.

**“**Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171, Koran)
“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23, Bible)
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There is only one Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world in the Catholic and EO churches, and those who deny this are worshipping a different Christ, then, according to your and Gaelic’s paradigm.

For to deny the Real Presence is to deny a truth of Christ.

Do you see how your position is so inconsistent?

Choose one: either our Protestant brethren who deny Him in the Eucharist are worshipping a different Christ, and our Muslim brethren who deny Him in the Trinity are worshipping a different God…

OR

our Protestant brethren who deny Him in the Eucharist are worshipping Christ, but without the fullness of truth and our Muslim brethren are worshipping God, but without the fullness of truth.
 
PRmerger said:
Do you see how your position is so inconsistent?
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No. Your position is inconsistent…and vain attempts to paint Gaelic with the same brush as the muslims is rather ignorant. It is really quite simple:
“Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171, Koran)

“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23, Bible)
If a Catholic does not believe that the muslims do not worship the same God as the Christians…is it a sin. Do you have to go to confession?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Again, when Jesus gives an example of someone to whom the Trinitarian God has been revealed and rejects it but is still saved, you might have a point.
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You have no idea what a Muslim has received as “revealed” and rejects, Gaelic.

I heard one Muslim call in to the Catholic Answers Live show and ask how Catholic could believe in 3 gods when it’s clear that there’s only 1 God.

Clearly, this Muslim was rejecting or denying a straw man. What he thought was Trinitarian dogma. “3 gods: Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. The nuance of trinitarian theology was lost on him.
 
triumphguy said:
I have read the document. I assent to it. It would be a sin of disobedience for me to say that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is not the same God that Islam points to.
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You are still side-stepping the question.

If you refuse to believe that the muslims and Christians worship the same God. If you say that you do not accept what is written about this in Nostrae Aetate…is it a sin? Do you have to go to confession?
 
It must be noted, also, that this does not mean that the Muslims are correct or “right” in their understanding of God.

You may get 60% of the questions correct on an exam, but you still fail and get a low D.
 
Mickey said:
No. Your position is inconsistent…and vain attempts to paint Gaelic with the same brush as the muslims is rather ignorant. It is really quite simple:
“Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171, Koran)

“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23, Bible)
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Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not have eternal life–John 6.

So you are of the position, then, to be consistent, that those who do not eat his flesh are worshipping a different Jesus?

The ONLY answer you can say, Mickey, in order to be consistent is this: yes, they are worshipping a different Christ, for they deny Him in the Eucharist.
 
Mickey said:
If a Catholic does not believe that the muslims do not worship the same God as the Christians…is it a sin. Do you have to go to confession?
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I don’t know. That’s between him and his confessor.

Which brings up an interesting point, Mickey: do you believe that a Christian who commits a mortal sin can have his sins forgiven without the sacrament of reconciliation?

For it would appear that these Christians, who deny the need for this sacrament, are worshipping a different Christ as well. Yes?
 
Mickey said:
If a Catholic does not believe that the muslims do not worship the same God as the Christians…is it a sin. Do you have to go to confession?
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I don’t think it’s a sin to think that the Muslims do not worship the same God as Christians, even if written in NA that they do worship God (The Father). Why would you think that it’s a sin? The Vll documents were pastoral, not dogmatic. Does the document define, or does it specifically state that Catholics are obliged to give their assent to this on pain of grave sin? I don’t believe it does. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
 
Alfonsus said:
If yes, then we are following Descartes too much here. We reject objective reality, that there are only realities, each are different reality created by our mind and senses and understanding. And most probably, each of us are not worshiping the right enough God, but only an idol perception created by our own mind.
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Ah yes, Descartes. He toured around listening to the learned of the day and found that they didn’t agree on things, and came to the conclusion that he couldn’t trust other people and could only trust what he could find innately inside himself.

This thing is that most people who have read Descartes’ Meditation and come to the part where he says “I have this innate idea of God that just so happens to fit perfectly with my experiential belief in the Christian God” call BS on him. That’s with most of his stuff though, since he comes out with the exact same beliefs as before in the maths and the sciences too. It seems a little too convenient that he was able to find all these ideas innately in his own head…

Descartes is an example of a man trusts only in himself and what he can prove. What this is saying is “I will not give assent to anything I can’t understand”. Do people withhold assent from the Trinity because they can’t understand it? Or how about the 2 natures of Christ and how He’s fully human and fully divine, it seems like that clashes with common sense pretty outrightly.

There’s really only 1 question to ask: Do believe that Christ founded the Church on Peter and sent the Holy Spirit to protect it? If you do, then why spend all your time trying to “reconcile” things that you know (because of Christ’s promise) don’t need reconciling? And if you say no, then you say that Jesus is a liar. You shouldn’t ever put your faith in yourself, because you don’t make a very good foundation. When you put your faith in Christ, then everything’s going to work out.
 
PRmerger said:
For it would appear that these Christians, who deny the need for this sacrament, are worshipping a different Christ as well.
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I think it is sad that as you argue vehmently for the concept that muslims worship the same God as the Christians…your main tactic is to attempt to attack our reformed Christian brethren by using the sacraments against them.

Such a strange paradigm you live in. 😦
 
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