How can I respond to these murderous Old Testament passages?

[atassina]

1. Capital Punishment Crimes:

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

[aball1035]

I don’t know a lot about this, however this applies to the Old Law-not for today which runs on the New Law given by Jesus

 

[RobbyS]

1. Capital Punishment Crimes:

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

My view is that the Bible shows a progressive revelation, which means that God is seen through fleshly eyes and encountered by men whose hearts were slow to melt.

 

[Cluny]

One woman once commented, “Sometimes, the Bible is not God’s words, but God’s record of men’s words.”

Especially in the OT, it describes how people are, warts, prejudices, and all.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Would telling them it is metaphorical help?

 

[ahollars]

Accept that at the time Judaism was the faith and Israel was the nation, and the two could not be separated. You could not be and Israelite if you weren’t a Jew, and if you were a Jew, you wouldn’t want to be anything but an Israelite. The law of Moses was both the divine law for the soul and the secular law for man’s day-to-day life. These punishments for those particular crimes were necessary to purge evil from Israel so that the nation as a whole would be pleasing to God, not just individuals, families, or tribes. Also keep in mind, it is only modern thinking that God’s infinite mercy applies to this life. His mercy is for the soul, not the body. Whole nations were destroyed, but that does not mean they were condemned. God in His mercy and wisdom can end the life of sinners before they do something that condemns them forever. It may seem cruel to us, but that is for Him to decide, since He always knows which course of action would be best.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

How can these people be of God if all they ever did was kill and rape and plunder the land? I alway’s thought “God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.?” They imply GOD said to kill, God said to rape, God said. If you look at the old testement God and you look at Jesus, they seem so differnt,like two seperate beings. Why would God change so much? Even baby’s were murdered,we today claim God is all forgiving, all mercifull, ETC. WE are still the same sinners that we always were, Look around and see, is abortion rampid? And stealing, rape, cheating on taxes and all the junk that was in the world then is still here today. the only thing that has changed is Mans laws, we regulate them, and change them, we set the rules, and we say God does not want this or that, but it is in reality us who does this, just as it was back then, but they used God to blame it all on. I get the chills when I go to the old testement,I cannot see my Lord Jesus, being so full of love and compassion being the same as the Father. If they made him up then that means God never helped his people until Jesus came? Hard to believe. Jesus is love! Can’t anyone figure this out?

 

[budgie2]

Personally if any verse in the Old Testament is a stumbling block in my faith then I go back to reading the Gospel. So I don’t read the Old Testament very often although a priest may be forced to study it in seminary. Don’t let anything get in your way of your faith in Christ. Equally if anybody in the New Testament such as St Paul, St Timothy,St Peter etc. causes me to stumble, I would stop reading these other books and go back to reading the Gospel. Only Christ is infallible in the Bible. Nobody else is infallible. If I don’t understand Christ’s words then I pray for an answer and there may be minor heresies in the Bible and misreported verses. Christ is God and Man. Nobody else in the Bible is God apart from Christ.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Budgie, I came upon some information and I will be back with it because I dont want to think that way but I get questions from other people and I would like to be able to answer them. How can you lead someone to the Lord if you don’t have an answer for them? It is very important that we can prove our faith in everything we claim and say. I thank you for having the courage to respond. I contacted a Catholic site and they wrote me back so I will come back with it, but it still doesn’t clear up all of it. In fact this person sounded alot in agreement with you and how you feel. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The Old Testament was written long before the arrival of Christ on earth, by men who lived in a very different kind of world. It was a world of such violence and raw horror as we would not recognize today. Mercy and love were considered weaknesses in leaders, and in God. Kings in those days had to provide daily executions, the grislier the better, for their subjects’ amusement. God was thought of in those days like a King.

God does not change, but we change. Our perceptions change. Our ability to understand and appreciate such emotions as forgiveness and love change. That is precisely why Christ came into the world. It was His coming that precipitated the change in our hearts that was necessary to our evolvement as children of God.

Christ said, “I have come to give you a new and higher morality.” And that is just what He did. He replaced the old “eye-for-an-eye” thinking with one of forgiveness and love. Remember, this was God’s plan all along. He knew from the creation of the world at just what point He would have to try to change men’s hearts.

The Old Testament is read today for historical reasons only. The morality expressed by those ancient writers has not applied since Christ came to earth. And of course, the writers were all Jewish, and tended to see all events in the context of God’s championing them to the detriment of everyone else. The Bible is a moral document, not a scientific or historical one, and from it we learn of our relationship with God, and how He wants us to lead our life. It is Christ who teaches us that, not the prophets of the OT. If the OT were all that is necessary for our salvation, God would not have had to come to earth and suffer and die in order to teach us and redeem us.

We do not answer specific Bible questions. We are far too small to do that. But we do try to help people with general crises of faith.

Read the Gospels. They contain every word of what Christ wanted us to remember of His visit. Keep asking yourself, what is there here that I disagree with, deep in my soul? What part of this do I think is wrong? I am betting that the answer to both is “nothing!” and that is the best reason to believe in Christ and His message.

Love and God Bless,

Garrett Toren, editor, www.ForPersonalHelp.com This is it so far. I also wrote to another Cathoilc who you know that writes and I am waiting for his reply. This is a tutchy subject, but if understood it could mean alto to people who doubt their faith and others who dont believe at all. So I think this question should be addressed. you are Loved Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

One woman once commented, “Sometimes, the Bible is not God’s words, but God’s record of men’s words.”

Especially in the OT, it describes how people are, warts, prejudices, and all.

You know it is either Gods word or not. It is either the inspired scriptures or not, If it is not I dont want it in my house. Dont you see how important this is? Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

If you look at the second paragraph, you will see he states that it is our perseption that changes, they made him out to be like them, a good reason why there are Athiest in the world, but, the whole thing boils down to this, Before Jesus died what did he say? I will send the COMFORTER, and he did. I know they could not have had that in the old testement now could they? I had to realy think about this and that is what I came up with. That may be the answer to the whole thing, So we can look back and see what it was like before Jesus came, and what we have now that they never had at all. We still have all those sins in the world but now we have the Blessed hope of our salvation. The Rock! The difference is the Holy Spirit, and the complete Love of Calvery. God Bless Nancy PS Please don’t be afraid of this subject, it is good to be able to defend the Church and Jesus, because if we call one part a lie we condem all the parts!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Accept that at the time Judaism was the faith and Israel was the nation, and the two could not be separated. You could not be and Israelite if you weren’t a Jew, and if you were a Jew, you wouldn’t want to be anything but an Israelite. The law of Moses was both the divine law for the soul and the secular law for man’s day-to-day life. These punishments for those particular crimes were necessary to purge evil from Israel so that the nation as a whole would be pleasing to God, not just individuals, families, or tribes. Also keep in mind, it is only modern thinking that God’s infinite mercy applies to this life. His mercy is for the soul, not the body. Whole nations were destroyed, but that does not mean they were condemned. God in His mercy and wisdom can end the life of sinners before they do something that condemns them forever. It may seem cruel to us, but that is for Him to decide, since He always knows which course of action would be best.

Hello ahollars, there are alot of places in the old testement where the people of God went into places that were inhabited by very quiet peaceful people and they killed all of them spareing none. I do admire your trust and faith. Do you think that God was on earth with them? You speak as though man did all this on their own, Did not Enoch walk with God and what about the 4th man in the fire? David and the Lions den? Sampson and Goliath? What about Noah and is family? Melchezedeck first high priest? Believe me there was alot of God around, so did he hand pick only some to be granted his own and the others he created to die, were they chosen for this? Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I don’t know a lot about this, however this applies to the Old Law-not for today which runs on the New Law given by Jesus

Hello aball, I need to remind you that the old testement should mean alot to you if you believe in the 10 commandments, and didn’t Jesus say “I cam not to change one tittle of the law?” Can you explain that? You are Loved Nancy Jesus is Lord!

 

[Drawmack]

Personally if any verse in the Old Testament is a stumbling block in my faith then I go back to reading the Gospel. So I don’t read the Old Testament very often although a priest may be forced to study it in seminary. Don’t let anything get in your way of your faith in Christ. Equally if anybody in the New Testament such as St Paul, St Timothy,St Peter etc. causes me to stumble, I would stop reading these other books and go back to reading the Gospel. Only Christ is infallible in the Bible. Nobody else is infallible. If I don’t understand Christ’s words then I pray for an answer and there may be minor heresies in the Bible and misreported verses. Christ is God and Man. Nobody else in the Bible is God apart from Christ.

Budgie,

Could I recommend that, out of Christian kindness and love, you talk to a priest prior to posting, or discussing in any way, your views on theology any further. I fear that you may be crossing into deep heresy with some of you statements, and I pray that you seek counsel with someone who has teaching faculties.

Peace
Tom

 

[Shin]

Old Testament penalties and punishments normally represent mortal sins. So, the spiritual effect of it is demonstrated in the literal and material fashion, and the community is protected from corruption, since the Jews are at that time the people of God and cannot admit anyone into their company who commits these deadly sins against God.

In our time, the punishment for these sins is not as often demonstrated with material justice, but the spiritual penalty remains. It is to be hoped that the previous strict penalties will stick in the mind of those who would commit the sins thinking they do so with impunity – God has demonstrated clearly, to all the world, what you can do to go to Hell and what you can do to go to Heaven.

So that is one of the primary meanings and purposes of those passages.

Disobeying God, and any and all of His commands, and those He chooses to place in authority, is never something one can do lightly.

So for the sake of our salvation and out of love of us He makes it clear, how deadly sin is with visible example.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Nancy,

This really looks like an issue - the God of the OT appears to be sooooooooooo different from the God of the NT - yet they are One and the same God!

How can these people be of God if all they ever did was kill and rape and plunder the land? I alway’s thought “God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.?” They imply GOD said to kill, God said to rape, God said. If you look at the old testement God and you look at Jesus, they seem so differnt,like two seperate beings. Why would God change so much? Even baby’s were murdered,we today claim God is all forgiving, all mercifull, ETC. WE are still the same sinners that we always were, Look around and see, is abortion rampid? And stealing, rape, cheating on taxes and all the junk that was in the world then is still here today. the only thing that has changed is Mans laws, we regulate them, and change them, we set the rules, and we say God does not want this or that, but it is in reality us who does this, just as it was back then, but they used God to blame it all on. I get the chills when I go to the old testement,I cannot see my Lord Jesus, being so full of love and compassion being the same as the Father. If they made him up then that means God never helped his people until Jesus came? Hard to believe. Jesus is love! Can’t anyone figure this out?

While there are many ways of looking at this issue, the one that I find the most helpful for myself is that an analogy involving a carpenter. This carpenter goes out and get trees to make his fine furniture - so, all of the buautifuly branches and protective bark are removed, then the log is roughly sawed and then a finer and finer sanding and sawing along with curing are needed. Finally the carpenter is able to get to what he needs - and yet he must still cut off good wood because it is not in conformity to the pattern he has in mind. Once all the parts are cut and assembeled, it still must be sanded and stained to get that perfect furniture. Now, at no point did the tree or roughly cut lumber tell the carptenter that he was wasting too much or that another design wold be better!

As I see it, God is the Divine Carpenter. From the time that man cose sin - God has been working with man to get him in a position where he could bring Christ into the world.

Reading the OT is not for the faint of heart - especially if one is going to tell God about ‘fairness’. I really think that more time spent in the NT is not only the better approach…but the one that will bring us closer to the Love of God in Christ…

God bless

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

tqualey, So Jesus is the finished product? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit was with those prophets in the old testement? Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

tqualey, So Jesus is the finished product? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit was with those prophets in the old testement? Love of Christ Nancy

I take that back, we are going to be the finished product? That one God is working on right? Why did he have to go to extremes to do that? Were these people of old like prehistoric animals? Wild and crazy? Why would he walk with them? I thought he made them intelligent? Didn’t Adam have the same knowledge of God knowing good and evil? Yes If I stuck to only the New Testement, I would proberly be alot better off, but if someone asks me about it what do I tell them? Tom, Did you give up on me? No one said this would be easy. You are Loved Nancy

 

[Shin]

The proper response to these passages is to fully support them, because they are acts of God. We simply have to understand why He did them, and understanding to explain them clearly rather than seek to explain them away.

To do otherwise is a disservice to the love of God.

Certainly much of this can be hard to understand for beginners because we come from a culture that condemns a good deal of it. But when we come beyond our cultural boundaries, to authentic Catholic culture, we understand the ways of God and how high above they are our own. And how whatever God does, is the best for all mankind.

‘Perfection consists in renouncing ourselves, in carrying our cross, and in following Jesus Christ. Now, he who renounces himself most perfectly carries his cross the best and follows nearest to Jesus Christ is he who never does his own will, but always that of God.’

St. Vincent de Paul