How can I respond to these murderous Old Testament passages?

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lol. 🙂

I suppose I could think of innocent human beings, in a situation where it was the principle of double effect, but it is hard to contemplate.

Technically, we are born innocent of personal sin, but we are also born not in union with God’s grace – we may suffer because of others’ acts, our parent’s, but that is the power a parent has over his own child. To a degree our parent’s lives determine our sufferings in this life and there’s a great deal to be said about this.

But in the more general sense, books like Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence, and Abandonment to Divine Providence, are good for understanding this all and Providence.

It is perfectly true that all that occurs is God’s will, with the sole exception of sin. Some of it is His direct will, some of it is His permissive will. The latter, because of how He designed the universe and destined all our lives for the best, though so many natural evils occur. And without a doubt, His plan is the best plan for us all. We are in good, absolutely perfectly good hands.

As human beings we sometimes (often even) view physical evils as moral evils, but pain suffering and death are not moral evils in and of themselves.

We suffer because we are separated from God, and born children of wrath, literally born of Adam and Eve, and so sharing that separation and punishment because we are still under their dominion, their children by descent. Under their authority, under their power and jurisdiction. Through baptism we regain grace, and the potential to be united with God, but our will still have to make that journey to perfection in all circumstances, to complete unity.

When we do, all suffering is sweet, and we understand why a baby is lost, a pregnancy that fails, a mother, a child, who dies young, even due to tragic accident or even murder, are all in God’s plan and under His care. Even the sins of men, though God does not cause the sin, He still directs the lives of men around the sins, so that even the moral evils happen as best can be planned for.

We suffer, but we bear our sufferings with Him. And so, the closer with Him we are, the more in obedience to suffering, the sweeter it is. It is when we rebel and see suffering as evil morally, when it is only a natural evil, that it actually becomes most painful.

A woman can lose her child and say, ‘Why? Why?’ like Job, but when she is united with God she in time learns to be comforted, because both she and her child are always in God’s hands – While those without God, or against God, go on crying out saying it is an evil morally that He allows all this to go – and so go too far.

Throughout the Old Testament God demonstrates the effects of sin – When men commit particular sin, He visits them with punishments of further sin, to demonstrate what sin leads to – more sin, and sins against the sinners themselves – For the more separated from God, the more we suffer at the hands of other sinners.

We are all united as mankind, and the sins of others always harm us in a sense because of that union of family, however directly unjust it may see, it is just or natural in a more overall general sense because we are all family, and all a more or less separated family from God whose destiny was always linked for good or evil.

If we wish to live our lives in perfect safety, we live sacred, holy lives, in union with God and realize that in the next life, even a young baby’s teething pains or worse, become a prize in Heaven that gives it a higher place in God’s love for the cost that child bore for sin, in union with Christ.
HI Shin, when you speak you remind me of a Moslem, they to think pain is gain, I am not usto this yet. What about the saints who suffered and did not sin to much? They were put to death and were close to God. LOL Nancy
 
All our sufferings on this earth, either turn to our higher place in God’s love in Heaven, and balance out justice, or at least are a foretaste and warning for those who are on the road greater punishment below. 🙂

You are a very funny person. 🙂

‘To suffer and not to suffer for God is torment.’
  • St. Gerard Majella
‘Be comforted with this divine thought that your spiritual and physical pains are the test of the Divine Will.’

‘It is better to do the Divine Will on earth than to enjoy heaven. To suffer and not to die was the motto of St. Therese.’
  • Quotations of St. Padre Pio
‘Pain and Love are almost synonymous words.’

‘Understand that the mercy of the Saviour is so measureless that it accepts the least ill, the smallest trouble, in payment for the most disquieting of your debts. Nothing, not even a headache, is lost. If God did not afflict you, you would persist in being insolvent till the hour of your death; acquit yourself then whilst you are able, and do not grudge that pain which alone is able to restrain your instincts of self-indulgence, to break your pride, to soften the hardness of your hearts.’

‘The proverb, “happiness leads to egoism,” is only too true; you do not begin to experience compassion for others till you have been yourself in want; well-being and strength sterilize you, and you only perform acts which are vaguely correct, till you are lamed or reduced to poverty.’

'Do you not understand that your prayers and your grief can draw souls from Purgatory? What they have not had the chance to suffer themselves, so as to purge themselves here below, you will suffer in their stead; you will substitute yourself for them and finish what they could not end. You will pay your grief in ransom, and the more sharp your pain, the sooner will the debt of her you loved be paid.

Who knows, indeed, if the Lord, touched by the goodwill and supplications of a husband, will not give credit to the wife on the capital of his mourning and yield her deliverance at once?’

‘Admire the goodness of the Creator, who causes the one to suffer in order to free the other.’
  • Quotations of St. Lydwine of Schiedam
 
All our sufferings on this earth, either turn to our higher place in God’s love in Heaven, and balance out justice, or at least are a foretaste and warning for those who are on the road greater punishment below. 🙂

You are a very funny person. 🙂

‘To suffer and not to suffer for God is torment.’
  • St. Gerard Majella
‘Be comforted with this divine thought that your spiritual and physical pains are the test of the Divine Will.’

‘It is better to do the Divine Will on earth than to enjoy heaven. To suffer and not to die was the motto of St. Therese.’
  • Quotations of St. Padre Pio
‘Pain and Love are almost synonymous words.’

‘Understand that the mercy of the Saviour is so measureless that it accepts the least ill, the smallest trouble, in payment for the most disquieting of your debts. Nothing, not even a headache, is lost. If God did not afflict you, you would persist in being insolvent till the hour of your death; acquit yourself then whilst you are able, and do not grudge that pain which alone is able to restrain your instincts of self-indulgence, to break your pride, to soften the hardness of your hearts.’

‘The proverb, “happiness leads to egoism,” is only too true; you do not begin to experience compassion for others till you have been yourself in want; well-being and strength sterilize you, and you only perform acts which are vaguely correct, till you are lamed or reduced to poverty.’

'Do you not understand that your prayers and your grief can draw souls from Purgatory? What they have not had the chance to suffer themselves, so as to purge themselves here below, you will suffer in their stead; you will substitute yourself for them and finish what they could not end. You will pay your grief in ransom, and the more sharp your pain, the sooner will the debt of her you loved be paid.

Who knows, indeed, if the Lord, touched by the goodwill and supplications of a husband, will not give credit to the wife on the capital of his mourning and yield her deliverance at once?’

‘Admire the goodness of the Creator, who causes the one to suffer in order to free the other.’
  • Quotations of St. Lydwine of Schiedam
I think i might understand but the verse:"Who knows, indeed, if the Lord, touched by the goodwill and supplications of a husband, will not give credit to the wife on the capital of his mourning and yield her deliverence at once? What does that mean? LOL Nancy
 
I think i might understand but the verse:"Who knows, indeed, if the Lord, touched by the goodwill and supplications of a husband, will not give credit to the wife on the capital of his mourning and yield her deliverence at once? What does that mean? LOL Nancy
It is part of a larger passage from a book about St. Lydwine, by J.K. Huysman.

In it, if my recollection is correct, a husband whose wife has died is mourning over her loss and her time spent in Purgatory. He wishes for her to enter into Heaven swiftly, and not suffer, so he takes upon penances himself for her sake. Ah yes, it is correct, here is the full passage of her advice to those who came to her bedside. She, the saint, suffered more visibly than perhaps any saint I know of alive, and so many people came to her side to ask her advice.

After death, we either go to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory, the last state is one where we pay the justice due our sins and are purified of our imperfections. There are many souls there and one of the greatest and best devotions of Catholics, is to pray for them and offer up our sufferings for them so they can more swiftly enter into Heaven. …

Where we can be assured, they, our loving family will look kindly down on us and charitably will pray for us too.

The advise of St. Lydwine to a husband consumed with grief:

"Will you affirm that she for whom you weep is with the elect in Paradise? Your answer is ‘No,’ is it not? For, without denying her virtues, you must believe that, according to the ordinary rule, she has to pass through a probationary state of waiting, that she must sojourn for a space, the duration of which is known to God alone, in Purgatory.

"Do you not understand that your prayers and your grief can draw souls from thence? What they have not had the chance to suffer themselves, so as to purge themselves here below, you will suffer in their stead; you will substitute yourself for them and finish what they could not end. You will pay your grief in ransom, and the more sharp your pain, the sooner will the debt of her you loved be paid.

"Who knows, indeed, if the Lord, touched by the goodwill and supplications of a husband, will not give credit to the wife on the capital of his mourning and yield her deliverance at once?

“You will then be paid in return for your pain; your wife will make herself the accomplice of time; she will soothe the acuteness of your wounds; she will deaden the regret of her loss, and will only leave you a gentle memory, distant and sweet. Do not talk then of suicide, for, besides the loss of your soul, it would be the negation, entire and absolute, of your love; it would be abandoning her whom you pretend to love at the moment when she finds herself in peril, plunging her back into the abyss of Purgatory, when she had already mounted to the top; and depriving yourself of the hope of ever seeing her again.”
 
Hello Shin, you have spoken quite well, but you missed the point we know of Gods love and forgiveness, the question is why does God allow so much horror to happen, and to innocent, I said INNOCENT beings? Could you take the life of a baby? or even a pregnant mom? What about if God asked you to? LOL Nancy
I think the theological and philosophical reasons are explained well so far by other posters. I would only add the social dimension that was being accomplished.

Through Moses God was forming a civil society formed of His People. A nation among nations. The punishments for violations of God’s Law should be looked at as responses to crimes intended to instill into the heart of the people the gravity of the crime. We take these things for granted. The taboo’s and inhibitions that we consider an inheritence of nature are in fact hard earned through the human experiences of punishments imposed when they were violated. Incest for example is despicable to most people because the ancient societies formed laws against it and punishments able to make them archtypes written in our hearts. They have such power within us because of the horror instilled by the punishments imposed by founding civil societies.

God was forming the archetype of nations through Moses and the Law. Included are the punishments for crimes that would become the foundational experiences for taboo’s and inhibitions that are now taken for granted as part of our nature.

We can thank Moses and the Law for punishments to crime necessay for the natural developement of future nations under God.
 
I take that back, we are going to be the finished product? That one God is working on right? Why did he have to go to extremes to do that? Were these people of old like prehistoric animals? Wild and crazy? Why would he walk with them? I thought he made them intelligent? Didn’t Adam have the same knowledge of God knowing good and evil? Yes If I stuck to only the New Testement, I would proberly be alot better off, but if someone asks me about it what do I tell them? Tom, Did you give up on me? No one said this would be easy. You are Loved Nancy
Did he go to extremes? Where the Hebrews are concerned, he has chosen a people and He is fashioning them into a new “race.” What is described in the Old Testament is how this people lived in a world ruled by other people who worshiped other gods, and who accordingly lived lives who find it hard to imagine but which we can glimpse in the writings of the Bible are pretty awful. We like to beat up on the Spaniards who conquered Mexico, but as bad and even un Christian as Cortez and his men often acted, they were stunned by what they observed in Mexico. Men hardened by constant war with the Moors, could hardly believe the depravity of the Mexican religion. The religion of Palestine encountered by the Israelites was not unlike that. Imagine a world in which men were regarded as slaves of the gods, with priests and rulers as overseers for these gods, and who scarcely allowed peole to make a move without propiating these gods. In a way, the Bible is a record of how men reacted as they sought to lives under the rule of the One God, and the inevitable clash as the “Chosen People” encountered others who lived under “the gods.” The essential difference between the Israelites and their enemies was that they were free men and their enemies were not. Free in the sense that western man has come to understand the term. Not to push the analogy very far, but the clash between the two was not unlike that between the Allies who pushed ashore on D-Day and the men who resisted them.
 
HI Shin, why should anybody suffer for anyones sins except Christ? he already paid the price for all sinners. Should we crucirfy Christ every day? you must suffer alot? God does not want us to suffer, he sent his son to do that:thumbsup: He loves us so much he paid the penalty for us, I think those people you are talking about just liked to see others in the throws of crucirfiction.For their own enjoyment,may be? LOL Nancy Are we all alone here?
 
I think the theological and philosophical reasons are explained well so far by other posters. I would only add the social dimension that was being accomplished.

Through Moses God was forming a civil society formed of His People. A nation among nations. The punishments for violations of God’s Law should be looked at as responses to crimes intended to instill into the heart of the people the gravity of the crime. We take these things for granted. The taboo’s and inhibitions that we consider an inheritence of nature are in fact hard earned through the human experiences of punishments imposed when they were violated. Incest for example is despicable to most people because the ancient societies formed laws against it and punishments able to make them archtypes written in our hearts. They have such power within us because of the horror instilled by the punishments imposed by founding civil societies.

God was forming the archetype of nations through Moses and the Law. Included are the punishments for crimes that would become the foundational experiences for taboo’s and inhibitions that are now taken for granted as part of our nature.

We can thank Moses and the Law for punishments to crime necessay for the natural developement of future nations under God.
HI, yes that’s true i do thank god for Moses and Gods ten commandments, for which jesus said he came not to change, but to forfill, meaning they still exist he did not take them away he forfilled the old laws of the peole but not of his father, where do you peole live i’m so tird i could sellp right hjere and now. So you believe the same way as Shin? LOL Nancy
 
HI Shin, why should anybody suffer for anyones sins except Christ? he already paid the price for all sinners. Should we crucirfy Christ every day? you must suffer alot? God does not want us to suffer, he sent his son to do that:thumbsup: He loves us so much he paid the penalty for us, I think those people you are talking about just liked to see others in the throws of crucirfiction.For their own enjoyment,may be? LOL Nancy Are we all alone here?
Now, now, as Catholics we must greatly respect the words of the saints and try to understand them with our hearts. They are the greatest Christ bearers in history, He speaks with them and in them.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Collosians 1:24

Suffering is a key part of being a Christian. God sent His son so we would become a part of His mystical body, and bear suffering with Him and in Him and through Him.

Christ is our model, we have to do as He does, and that is suffer for the sake of charity, for the sake of love.

Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God
commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.

1 Peter 4:19

Every sin creates an imbalance in God’s justice. When it is deadly sin, the gates of Heaven are closed. Christ’s sacrifice, when we repent, opens up the gates of Heaven for us – But it does not undo all of our debt to justice. Christ paid the penalty to open Heaven again, undoing guilt – but we must also join ourselves to Him to pay the penance due after repentance – It is a Protestant invention to say otherwise. It is not that Christ’s sacrifice truly lacks, it is that we lack our part in Christ otherwise. This is the teaching of the Faith, and the teaching of God – Justice is not to be made a mockery of, we must show ourselves truly repentant and do penance for our sins. 🙂

St. Anselm’s work, ‘Why God Became Man (‘Cur Deus Homo’)’ explains Divine Justice very well. 🙂

“In the Sacrament of Penance the sinner is saved from the eternal
punishment–that is, Hell–and from part of the temporal punishment. But although the sins have been forgiven, the sinner must make satisfaction to God for the insult offered by his sins. Therefore, he must suffer punishment in this world or in Purgatory. We call this punishment temporal, because it will not last forever. You can make this satisfaction to God while on earth, and thus avoid much of the temporal punishment by prayers, fasting, gaining indulgences, alms, and good works; and even by bearing your sufferings, trials, and afflictions patiently, and offering them up to God in satisfaction for your sins.”
  • The Baltimore Catechism #4
 
Now, now, as Catholics we must greatly respect the words of the saints and try to understand them with our hearts. They are the greatest Christ bearers in history, He speaks with them and in them.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Collosians 1:24

Suffering is a key part of being a Christian. God sent His son so we would become a part of His mystical body, and bear suffering with Him and in Him and through Him.

Christ is our model, we have to do as He does, and that is suffer for the sake of charity, for the sake of love.

Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God
commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.

1 Peter 4:19

Every sin creates an imbalance in God’s justice. When it is deadly sin, the gates of Heaven are closed. Christ’s sacrifice, when we repent, opens up the gates of Heaven for us – But it does not undo all of our debt to justice. Christ paid the penalty to open Heaven again, undoing guilt – but we must also join ourselves to Him to pay the penance due after repentance – It is a Protestant invention to say otherwise. It is not that Christ’s sacrifice truly lacks, it is that we lack our part in Christ otherwise. This is the teaching of the Faith, and the teaching of God – Justice is not to be made a mockery of, we must show ourselves truly repentant and do penance for our sins. 🙂

St. Anselm’s work, ‘Why God Became Man (‘Cur Deus Homo’)’ explains Divine Justice very well. 🙂

“In the Sacrament of Penance the sinner is saved from the eternal
punishment–that is, Hell–and from part of the temporal punishment. But although the sins have been forgiven, the sinner must make satisfaction to God for the insult offered by his sins. Therefore, he must suffer punishment in this world or in Purgatory. We call this punishment temporal, because it will not last forever. You can make this satisfaction to God while on earth, and thus avoid much of the temporal punishment by prayers, fasting, gaining indulgences, alms, and good works; and even by bearing your sufferings, trials, and afflictions patiently, and offering them up to God in satisfaction for your sins.”
  • The Baltimore Catechism #4
Gainging indulgences how?
 
Now, now, as Catholics we must greatly respect the words of the saints and try to understand them with our hearts. They are the greatest Christ bearers in history, He speaks with them and in them.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Collosians 1:24

Suffering is a key part of being a Christian. God sent His son so we would become a part of His mystical body, and bear suffering with Him and in Him and through Him.

Christ is our model, we have to do as He does, and that is suffer for the sake of charity, for the sake of love.

Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God
commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.

1 Peter 4:19

Every sin creates an imbalance in God’s justice. When it is deadly sin, the gates of Heaven are closed. Christ’s sacrifice, when we repent, opens up the gates of Heaven for us – But it does not undo all of our debt to justice. Christ paid the penalty to open Heaven again, undoing guilt – but we must also join ourselves to Him to pay the penance due after repentance – It is a Protestant invention to say otherwise. It is not that Christ’s sacrifice truly lacks, it is that we lack our part in Christ otherwise. This is the teaching of the Faith, and the teaching of God – Justice is not to be made a mockery of, we must show ourselves truly repentant and do penance for our sins. 🙂

St. Anselm’s work, ‘Why God Became Man (‘Cur Deus Homo’)’ explains Divine Justice very well. 🙂

“In the Sacrament of Penance the sinner is saved from the eternal
punishment–that is, Hell–and from part of the temporal punishment. But although the sins have been forgiven, the sinner must make satisfaction to God for the insult offered by his sins. Therefore, he must suffer punishment in this world or in Purgatory. We call this punishment temporal, because it will not last forever. You can make this satisfaction to God while on earth, and thus avoid much of the temporal punishment by prayers, fasting, gaining indulgences, alms, and good works; and even by bearing your sufferings, trials, and afflictions patiently, and offering them up to God in satisfaction for your sins.”
  • The Baltimore Catechism #4
HOw do you know that the saints are realy listening? Have you ever seen any?
 
HI Shin, why should anybody suffer for anyones sins except Christ? he already paid the price for all sinners. Should we crucirfy Christ every day? you must suffer alot? God does not want us to suffer, he sent his son to do that:thumbsup: He loves us so much he paid the penalty for us, I think those people you are talking about just liked to see others in the throws of crucirfiction.For their own enjoyment,may be? LOL Nancy Are we all alone here?
We all must suffer if we desire to inherit eternal life. We must imitate Christ.

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

Philippians 1:27-30 “Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation,[a] and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.”

Colossians 1:24 “I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,”

2 Thessalonians 1:5 “which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;”

1 Peter 4:12-13 “Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.”

2 Timothy 3:12 “Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.”

Suffering is necessary in order to inherit eternal life.
 
We all must suffer if we desire to inherit eternal life. We must imitate Christ.

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

Philippians 1:27-30 “Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation,[a] and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.”

Colossians 1:24 “I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,”

2 Thessalonians 1:5 “which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;”

1 Peter 4:12-13 “Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.”

2 Timothy 3:12 “Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.”

Suffering is necessary in order to inherit eternal life.
What time tomorrow ad we 3 cango somewhere and do a thrad on this, all of this OK? can you let Shin know" Thank You Just get in touch with me and you can tell me all the thing i hae no knowledge about. Good Night Love Of Christ Nancy
 
HI Shin, why should anybody suffer for anyones sins except Christ? he already paid the price for all sinners. Should we crucirfy Christ every day? you must suffer alot? God does not want us to suffer, he sent his son to do that:thumbsup: He loves us so much he paid the penalty for us, I think those people you are talking about just liked to see others in the throws of crucirfiction.For their own enjoyment,may be? LOL Nancy Are we all alone here?
Hi Nancy,

I think this Sunday’s second reading (Trinity Sunday) answers this question about suffering.

Romans 8:14-17
Brothers and sisters:
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear,
but you received a Spirit of adoption,
through whom we cry, “Abba, Father!”
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit
that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs,
heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,
if only we suffer with him
so that we may also be glorified with him
.
 
Some of what was said above was very well said, but I will note that it is the Church’s, and so the Lord’s teaching that capital punishment can be inflicted by sovereign government – though properly only in the case of grave crimes. It is in other words, within the God given authority of the government to do it for the sake of temporal justice and punishment.
I think however that though that may be theoretically correct, Pope John Paul (I think) said that the likelyhood of capital punishment being a necessity is almost zero or something along those lines.
 
Hi, Nancy,

I do not think anyone has given up on anyone. Please… relax…🙂
I take that back, we are going to be the finished product? That one God is working on right? Why did he have to go to extremes to do that? Were these people of old like prehistoric animals? Wild and crazy? Why would he walk with them? I thought he made them intelligent? Didn’t Adam have the same knowledge of God knowing good and evil? Yes If I stuck to only the New Testement, I would proberly be alot better off, but if someone asks me about it what do I tell them? Tom, Did you give up on me? No one said this would be easy. You are Loved Nancy
“Going to extremes…” sounds like man evaluating God… or the clay pot critiquing the potter. This really is a dead end road - and those who insist on taking it are left simply cricicizing God because HE does not conform to our expecations of HIM.

Either you believe that God wills the salvation of all men …as listed in 1Tim 2: 1-4, or you have some other belief. Here is that passage:

“First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

How He worked with the various peoples in the OT is something that we can only speculate about. Each one of them - just like each one of us - has an immortal soul. And where we will be spending eternity is really where our focus needs to be. Since we know that God is All Just and All Merciful, in my opinion, it is simply best to leave this to His Divine Will - and move to an area where are required to respond - and that would be how we respond to the graces God gives us.

As I see it, the Devil has been around a looooooooooooooooooong time - and he has seen humanity in all of its desires and experiences. He would play us like a flute - and, that is his goal. Truly he has many ways of leading Believers into unbelief - if they would just follow him down the wide and well traveled road he has built o his kingdome: Hell. Confusing people about God is great sport for him - but, not nearly as much fun as confusing us about himself. Recall, the Devil was once considered an Angel fo Light - now, look at how he abuses his gifts from God.

Please, stay calm. Look at the graces God has given to each of us. Our job is to be thankful for what we have been given and work with these graces to bring about His Kingdom. Work with what you can. If you are more comfortable with the NT, then my recommendation would be to spend your time there. Pray to The Holy Spirit to open your heart to the Love of God.

God bless
 
I think however that though that may be theoretically correct, Pope John Paul (I think) said that the likelyhood of capital punishment being a necessity is almost zero or something along those lines.
You are correct. Capital punishment used to be a necessity because nations did not have prison facilities that were secure enough to keep criminals locked up in order to keep them from continuing/repeating their lives of crime. However, now, that problem has pretty much been solved with our high-tech maximum security prisons. They have also found that killing a person who has committed a crime usually does not deter him from committing a crime in the first place. And, now with Islam, dying is considered martyrdom which is very much desired.

Capital punishment remains moral, however, for nations to implement for murder and for treason which happens to be a threat to a nation’s “life.”
 
Hi Nancy,

I think this Sunday’s second reading (Trinity Sunday) answers this question about suffering.

Romans 8:14-17
Brothers and sisters:
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear,
but you received a Spirit of adoption,
through whom we cry, “Abba, Father!”
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit
that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs,
heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,
if only we suffer with him
so that we may also be glorified with him
.
You know i dont give a crows foot about myself or about suffering i have had no problems with it in fact Im quite usto it, this post is about innocent people not sinners. If you belive in pro life or anything close to it you would have feelings for the unborn as you do at the abortion clinics or mills. If God ordered me to kill a innocent unborn I would say YOU DO IT! BY!
 
Remember Paul,? he was killing Christians because he thought he was doing God a favour. God gave him a thorn in his flesh for that, but he did not kill him for all the lives he took. BY!
 
Hi, Nancy,

While I do not have the slightest doubt that Benedictus2 is quite capable of responding - i would be remiss if I did not point out that I have seen what appears to be a dramatic change in the type of of responses you are giving in your posts.
You know i dont give a crows foot about myself or about suffering i have had no problems with it in fact Im quite usto it, this post is about innocent people not sinners. If you belive in pro life or anything close to it you would have feelings for the unborn as you do at the abortion clinics or mills. If God ordered me to kill a innocent unborn I would say YOU DO IT! BY!
To the best of my knowledge, suffering is simply part of our human condition since the Fall. Some obviously suffer more then others - but, no one is exempt. And, this is something to consider when one thinks about Our Blessed Mother - who was totally free from sin from her first moment of life. She had her own personal prophecy in being told that a sword of sorrow (incredible suffering) would cut her heart. There is no doubt about Our Lord’s suffering from the day He was born until the day He died - Christ experienced the full human condition - and that means He experienced suffering.

No one gets used to suffering - just like no one gets used to pain. Each day of pain and suffering is a new day with new and old experiences in these areas. Those with chronic pain will probably experience a change in their personality in addition to all of the other changes they have experienced. Just look around - pain and suffering exert a real toll on the human body. But, this does not mean they will win. The human spirit can rise above a lot of things - and encouage others to move forward even though they themselves are not sure if they have the ability to put one foot in front of the other. Praying for God’s Grace is most important at this time.

I am not sure about what it is you are trying to say. I know Benedictus2 has expressed mutlitiple Pro-Life statements - and, I have no doubt she believes in what she has said. I can tell you that I am Pro-Life and have expressed my own statements in favor of protecting the innocent the growing life inside of the Mother. Don’t hold your breath waiting for God to order you to kill an unborn child - that will not happen. But, you may want to take a deep breath and re-read your post and see just what it is you want to accomplish on this thread.

God bless
 
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